I
inJESUS
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no.
Muslims whose mantra is “Bible corruption” do not realize that historically and geographically it was impossible.
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Muslims whose mantra is “Bible corruption” do not realize that historically and geographically it was impossible.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,no.
Muslims whose mantra is “Bible corruption” do not realize that historically and geographically it was impossible.
You were a Christian before, and perhaps you don’t understand about the Trinity, about the Deity of Jesus, about Jesus is surely God but at the same time is also surely human. So much the confusion that you seek the answer from the Quran. You also said that Quran saved your belief.
That is the problem, FoA. Quran is reducing God into human realm of thinking. Unable to answer the question, Quran simply rejects the idea, and some of the followers claims the bible corrupt, and you said it is from Gentile.
Jesus has died and rose again on the third day. Quran simply denied that.
Jesus rose Lazarus, a child of a sinagoge leader, and a guy from Nain. No human can ever do that but God. Quran says simply that the Bible was corrupted.
Jesus made miracles, confirmed by Roman spy named Josephus, but Quran denied that.
It sounds that Quran believes that God cannot make His words to become human, God cannot empower human, and God cannot rise people from the dead.
The Quran I know exist today was compiled by Uthman and Uthman burned the pieces of the originals. History said so. Who knows that you have an earlier Quran came from earlier than 700 AD. That would be interesting to ask, and that’s why I ask this question. You seem to miss the earlier thread about this topic.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Paarsurrey,Hi
Sorry ,the World comprises on many countries,races and nations. It is wrong to assume that the whole world consisted on Roman Empire only.Eusebius might have little knowledge of all this world. Moreover he was not a secular or neutral Historian, he wrote only the Church history, that is not so solid for others.
Eusebius of Caesarea (c 263 – 339?[1]) (often called Eusebius Pamphili, “Eusebius [the friend] of Pamphilus”) became the bishop of Caesarea in Palaestina c 314.[1] He is often referred to as the father of **Church history **because of his work in recording the history of the early Christian church.
Eusebius is often regarded as the first court appointed Christian theologian in the service of the Constantine Roman Empire, seeing the Empire and the Imperial Church as closely bonded.[3] Notwithstanding the great influence of his works on others, Eusebius was not himself a great historian.
The above is from an Encyclopedia.
Thanks
The existence of other country outside the region may not known to general public, just like the discussion whether or not there is life in other planet in our current time. The existence of the American Continent was not known until Columbus, but the Continent was there and inhabited. You cannot take your current geographical knowledge to the mind of people in the past, Paar. I don’t blame Muhammad when he said the world was flat, because many others including the Genesis writer believed so. Even at the year 600 AD when there were some philosopher said the otherwise, such knowledge may not reached Muhammad yet.
Also, the Church historian plus other historians worked independently in that subject was a lot, not just Eusebius only. If I said that the sun rise from the east, and the scientists acknowledge me, it does not make me a scientist, does it? But for sure, the sources in the BBC which you put your faith in, are not necessarily historians too. Please name their articles in respectable historian journals, or any history book written by them. By the way, please don’t ask to downstream a video source to me, since video downlining is expensive and still a premium service in my country, my apology.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Not the Bible itself, but the popular interpretation of it.That is the problem, FoA. Quran is reducing God into human realm of thinking. Unable to answer the question, Quran simply rejects the idea, and some of the followers claims the bible corrupt, and you said it is from Gentile.
No it doesn’t, Muslims in error do.Jesus has died and rose again on the third day. Quran simply denied that.
Quran 19:33-34 Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive! Such was Jesus, son of Mary: (this is) a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.
Elijah raised the dead too. But Jesus, Elijah, and everyone else only do it by the power of God.Jesus rose Lazarus, a child of a sinagoge leader, and a guy from Nain. No human can ever do that but God. Quran says simply that the Bible was corrupted.
No the Quran doesn’t deny miracles of Jesus, or the virgin birth.Jesus made miracles, confirmed by Roman spy named Josephus, but Quran denied that.
God can do anything. But the way God makes His words become human is that He creates a human with His words. And then He can go and dwell in the human to speak His words, then that man is a prophet.It sounds that Quran believes that God cannot make His words to become human, God cannot empower human, and God cannot rise people from the dead.
What history do you get that from?The Quran I know exist today was compiled by Uthman and Uthman burned the pieces of the originals. History said so. Who knows that you have an earlier Quran came from earlier than 700 AD. That would be interesting to ask, and that’s why I ask this question. You seem to miss the earlier thread about this topic.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Paar,Hi
We Muslim belive in Bible and Jesus only because Quran/Islam/Muhammad has mentioned about them with love and respect.
Thanks
Then you should explain why other muslims claim the Ahmadians are heresy. By the way, I do not have the same thinking as them. For me, you are a good religious follower, whatever your religion is.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Yea I agree.Mohammed told his followers to confirm his “prophecies” by looking in the Bible, and then later on it became apparent to Muslims who actually bothered to READ the Bible that it didn’t support his words at all.
Instead of taking an honest look at the discrepancy, Muslims found it more convenient to cry “corruption” after the fact. It also helps to choose a convenient scapegoat. Probably went a little something like this:
Seriously, that’s all there is to it. Don’t expect any rational explanations for why they believe this, because they don’t have any.
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear FoA,Not the Bible itself, but the popular interpretation of it.
No it doesn’t, Muslims in error do.
God can do anything. But the way God makes His words become human is that He creates a human with His words. And then He can go and dwell in the human to speak His words, then that man is a prophet.
What history do you get that from?
What popular interpretation of the bible you mentioned? What do mean by popular, anyway?
When God makes His word to become human, intended to talk to human, can God (according to you) maintain the status of such human as His Word?
Other than discussing the same story again, why don’t you enter the previous thread discussing about Uthman. If you can not find it, I will go back for you. But, my question remain, can you name a Quran older than 700 AD?
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
So the way I see it St. Paul lived a devout life just to make a theory and to trick people. Why would he do this, he gained nothing from it. We also know that St. Paul was an extremely devout Jew. He hatedChristians.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
If God can do anything then how could He not incarnate himself as a real human. The answer is that He could and did.Dear FoA,
What popular interpretation of the bible you mentioned? What do mean by popular, anyway?
When God makes His word to become human, intended to talk to human, can God (according to you) maintain the status of such human as His Word?
Other than discussing the same story again, why don’t you enter the previous thread discussing about Uthman. If you can not find it, I will go back for you. But, my question remain, can you name a Quran older than 700 AD?
K
karens1234
Guest
Wasn’t Paul a Pharisee (a Jew) and son of Pharisees, but a Roman Citizen?
drb.scripturetext.com/acts/23.htm6 And Paul knowing that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, cried out in the council: Men, brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of Pharisees: concerning the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question." Acts 23
K
karens1234
Guest
There is a BIG “No” to your question/preposition.If God can do anything then how could He not incarnate himself as a real human. The answer is that He could and did.
Because God cannot do anything as you want Him to do.
What God does is: He does what He wants, and not what you want Him to be/become/do.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Yes, you are correct St. Paul was a Roman Citizen as well.Wasn’t Paul a Pharisee (a Jew) and son of Pharisees, but a Roman Citizen?
drb.scripturetext.com/acts/23.htm
“But Paul said to the officers: They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens” (Acts 16:37)
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
That was my point. God did become human, because he wanted to.There is a BIG “No” to your question/preposition.
Because God cannot do anything as you want Him to do.
What God does is: He does what He wants, and not what you want Him to be/become/do.
“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Colossians 2:9)
S
swariffin
Guest
Dear Holdencaulfield,If God can do anything then how could He not incarnate himself as a real human. The answer is that He could and did.
You are absolutely correct, I agree with you. But, it seems to me that FoA does not.
H
holdencaulfield
Guest
Thank You, I’m glad to hear that.Dear Holdencaulfield,
You are absolutely correct, I agree with you. But, it seems to me that FoA does not.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Again I think God can do anything, but this case is not quite like God magically becoming a human, but God dwelling in a human. Not a huge difference in the spirit of things, since the man Jesus becomes like God anyway with that kind of power to rule us, but still a difference.Dear Holdencaulfield,
You are absolutely correct, I agree with you. But, it seems to me that FoA does not.
K
karens1234
Guest
G-d is not a man. So, G-d cannot become a man.That was my point. God did become human, because he wanted to.
A
abucs
Guest
I just picked up the book of John in the NT. If FOA you beleive the bible is not corrupt, only the interpretation, how would you interpret the following ?
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Fathers only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.
John 3:16 (Jesus speaking) For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who beleives in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead to life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgement to his Son, so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. Amen, amen, i say to you, whoever hears my word and beleives in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
John 11:25 Jesus told her, i am the ressurection and the life, whoever beleives in me, even if he dies will live.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and beleives in him may have eternal life, and i shall raise him up on the last day.
John 19:7 The Jews answered, ‘we have a law and according to that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’.
John 19:30 (on the cross) When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, ‘It is finished’. And bowing his head, handed over the spirit.
John 20:17 (after the ressurection) Jesus said to her, 'stop holding onto me, for i have not yet ascended to the father.
John 20:28 (after the ressurrection) Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’ Jesus said to him ‘have you comes to believe because you have seen me ? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed’.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may come to beleive that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
These are just a few in John, but you could pick up any of the other gospels and get similar quotes, actually Matthew probably has many more. These words are the same as the ones when the bible was created in the 4th century as an amalgamation of 1st century writings. We still have copies of 4th, 5th, 6th century bibles which confirm that.
The Koran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and was not the Son of God, but that the bible is a holy book from God that muslims should consult. The bible says Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God.
There is an obvious credibilty problem there.
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Fathers only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.
John 3:16 (Jesus speaking) For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who beleives in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead to life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgement to his Son, so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. Amen, amen, i say to you, whoever hears my word and beleives in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
John 11:25 Jesus told her, i am the ressurection and the life, whoever beleives in me, even if he dies will live.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and beleives in him may have eternal life, and i shall raise him up on the last day.
John 19:7 The Jews answered, ‘we have a law and according to that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’.
John 19:30 (on the cross) When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, ‘It is finished’. And bowing his head, handed over the spirit.
John 20:17 (after the ressurection) Jesus said to her, 'stop holding onto me, for i have not yet ascended to the father.
John 20:28 (after the ressurrection) Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’ Jesus said to him ‘have you comes to believe because you have seen me ? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed’.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may come to beleive that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
These are just a few in John, but you could pick up any of the other gospels and get similar quotes, actually Matthew probably has many more. These words are the same as the ones when the bible was created in the 4th century as an amalgamation of 1st century writings. We still have copies of 4th, 5th, 6th century bibles which confirm that.
The Koran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and was not the Son of God, but that the bible is a holy book from God that muslims should consult. The bible says Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God.
There is an obvious credibilty problem there.
A
abucs
Guest
karens1234,
is God a burning bush ? So he did not talk to Abraham then ?
is God a pillar of fire ? So he did not lead the Israelites from Egypt then ?
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and be a burning bush to talk to Abraham ;
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and be a pillar of fire that is leading the Israelites ;
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and have his presence in the ark of the covenant protecting the Israelites ;
then why are you forbidding him to become a man ?
Please tell me how he can be a burning bush talking to Abraham but not a man talking to apostles ?
P.S. Have you told God your rules that he must not transgress ?
is God a burning bush ? So he did not talk to Abraham then ?
is God a pillar of fire ? So he did not lead the Israelites from Egypt then ?
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and be a burning bush to talk to Abraham ;
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and be a pillar of fire that is leading the Israelites ;
If God can be everywhere and ruler of all things and have his presence in the ark of the covenant protecting the Israelites ;
then why are you forbidding him to become a man ?
Please tell me how he can be a burning bush talking to Abraham but not a man talking to apostles ?
P.S. Have you told God your rules that he must not transgress ?
K
karens1234
Guest
What you are qouting from various Gospels, only shows how contradictory the contents of Gospels are, when you compare your qoutes with the rest of the Gospels.I just picked up the book of John in the NT. If FOA you beleive the bible is not corrupt, only the interpretation, how would you interpret the following ?
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Fathers only Son, full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.
John 3:16 (Jesus speaking) For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who beleives in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead to life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgement to his Son, so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. Amen, amen, i say to you, whoever hears my word and beleives in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
John 11:25 Jesus told her, i am the ressurection and the life, whoever beleives in me, even if he dies will live.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and beleives in him may have eternal life, and i shall raise him up on the last day.
John 19:7 The Jews answered, ‘we have a law and according to that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’.
John 19:30 (on the cross) When Jesus had taken the wine, he said, ‘It is finished’. And bowing his head, handed over the spirit.
John 20:17 (after the ressurection) Jesus said to her, 'stop holding onto me, for i have not yet ascended to the father.
John 20:28 (after the ressurrection) Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’ Jesus said to him ‘have you comes to believe because you have seen me ? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed’.
John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may come to beleive that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
These are just a few in John, but you could pick up any of the other gospels and get similar quotes, actually Matthew probably has many more. These words are the same as the ones when the bible was created in the 4th century as an amalgamation of 1st century writings. We still have copies of 4th, 5th, 6th century bibles which confirm that.
The Koran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and was not the Son of God, but that the bible is a holy book from God that muslims should consult. The bible says Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God.
There is an obvious credibilty problem there.
With this serious problem, in order to make some sense out of these and other contradictory items of NT, you have to adopt “pick and choose” methodology.
By the way the first three Gosples are called Synoptic Gospels and John’s called non-Synoptic, why?
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