Saint Paul and Islam

[holdencaulfield]

Exactly, Karen you are right in saying that the Son of God was not man in the beginning, however He became man in order to reconcile humanity with his Father. FoA you say that God can become man however he merely dwelt in man. Now if you agree that God can do anything than you would agree that God really could become truly man if he wanted to. So what you are having is a problem weather God really did become man. From the Holy Scripture this is quite evident in very many places, from more authors than Saint Paul as well who you seem to discredit. So this really goes to weather you believe in the Bible or not. This is not an argument of what God can and can’t do since we seem to be in agreement. With that said:

“the Church calls Incarnation the fact that the Son of God assumed a human nature in order to accomplish our salvation in it.” (CCC 461)

“The unique and altogether singular event of the Incarnation of the Son of God does not meant that Jesus Christ is part God and part man, nor does it imply that he is the result of a confused mixture of the divine and human. He became truly man while remaining truly God” (CCC 464)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

I just picked up the book of John in the NT. If FOA you beleive the bible is not corrupt, only the interpretation, how would you interpret the following ?

I only use KJV for the NT, not other versions that take greater liberties with translation of often ambiguous Greek. Given that…

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Fathers only Son, full of grace and truth.

God went to dwell in a man and a man spoke God’s Word as a prophet, God’s Word made flesh.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Fathers side has revealed him.

KJV: John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Again, Jesus is a prophet declaring God.

John 3:16 (Jesus speaking) For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who beleives in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.

Still a son as in Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

John 5:21 For just as the Father raises the dead to life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgement to his Son, so that all may honour the Son just as they honour the Father. Whoever does not honour the Son does not honour the Father who sent him. Amen, amen, i say to you, whoever hears my word and beleives in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.

Jesus is not God all by himself, he is still a man who receives any power he has from God.

John 11:25 Jesus told her, i am the ressurection and the life, whoever beleives in me, even if he dies will live.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and beleives in him may have eternal life, and i shall raise him up on the last day.

Like the Brass Serpent, a gift from God.

John 19:7 The Jews answered, ‘we have a law and according to that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God’.

Jesus claimed authority of God as a prophet, they deemed him a false prophet.

John 20:28 (after the ressurrection) Thomas answered and said to him, ‘My Lord and My God!’ Jesus said to him ‘have you comes to believe because you have seen me ? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed’.

Jesus is given authority as God to us, like Moses was given to his people.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him (AARON) instead of God.

John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may come to beleive that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.

Jesus is made High Priest like Melchizedek to make atonement for our sins with God.

Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

These are just a few in John, but you could pick up any of the other gospels and get similar quotes, actually Matthew probably has many more. These words are the same as the ones when the bible was created in the 4th century as an amalgamation of 1st century writings. We still have copies of 4th, 5th, 6th century bibles which confirm that.

The Koran says that Jesus did not die on the cross and was not the Son of God, but that the bible is a holy book from God that muslims should consult. The bible says Jesus died on the cross and was the son of God.

The Quran says Jesus was not crucified in the manner of an execution, but rather that God killed him on before the cross could kill him. The Quran never says Jesus was not on the cross at all.

There is an obvious credibilty problem there.

I don’t see any.

 

[holdencaulfield]

What you are qouting from various Gospels, only shows how contradictory the contents of Gospels are, when you compare your qoutes with the rest of the Gospels.

With this serious problem, in order to make some sense out of these and other contradictory items of NT, you have to adopt “pick and choose” methodology.

By the way the first three Gosples are called Synoptic Gospels and John’s called non-Synoptic, why?

The first three Gospels show the life and teachings of Jesus Christ from a historical point of view. They do not contradict each other in that they say different things. If they were all the same then their would be no point in having different Gospels. The Gospel of St. John is more from a Theological point of view. He made it to prove that Jesus was and is God.

 

[karens1234]

karens1234,

is God a burning bush ? So he did not talk to Abraham then ?

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then why are you forbidding him to become a man ?

Here a qoute for you:

Traditionally, both Judaism and Christianity believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, for Jews the God of the Tanakh, for Christians the God of the Old Testament, the creator of the universe.

Both religions reject the view that God is entirely immanent, and within the world as a physical presence, (although Christians believe in the incarnation of God). Both religions reject the view that God is entirely transcendent, and thus separate from the world, as the pre-Christian Greek Unknown God. Both religions reject atheism on one hand and polytheism on the other.

Both religions agree that God shares both transcendent and immanent qualities. How these religions resolve this issue is where the religions differ. Christianity posits that God exists as a Trinity; in this view God exists as three distinct persons who share a single divine essence, or substance. In those three there is one, and in that one there are three; the one God is indivisible, while the three persons are distinct and unconfused, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It teaches that God became especially immanent in physical form through the Incarnation of God the Son who was born as Jesus of Nazareth, who is believed to be at once fully God and fully human. There are “Christian” sects that deny one or more of these doctrines, however. See also Nontrinitarianism.

By contrast, Judaism sees God as a single entity, and views trinitarianism as both incomprehensible and a violation of the Bible’s teaching that God is one. It rejects the notion that Jesus or any other object or living being could be ‘God’, that God could have a literal ‘son’ in physical form or is divisible in any way, or that God could be made to be joined to the material world in such fashion. Although Judaism provides Jews with a word to label God’s transcendence (Ein Sof, without end) and immanence (Shekhinah, in-dwelling), these are merely human words to describe two ways of experiencing God; God is one and indivisible.

Some Jewish and Christian philosophers hold that due to these differences, it may well be that Jews and Christians don’t believe in the same god at all.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_Christianity#Concepts_of_God

 

[FaithofAbraham]

So what you are having is a problem weather God really did become man.

Well again, what big challenge or sacrifice is it for God to become a man and live without sin? Heck if I had superpowers like God I guess I could live without sin too.

It totally minimizes the sacrifices the man Jesus had to make, to resist accepting kingdoms from Satan, to give up a wife and kids to go preach God’s Word often to people who hated him, to facing death on the cross with nothing else but faith to assure him he wouldn’t stay dead.

Besides all that, what kind of an example is that supposed to be for the rest of us. Be like Jesus, even though he was a God who could do anything? Nonsense, who would even try.

So I see no good reason for God to become a man here except to satisfy Gentile habits of worshiping demigods.

I only see that God was with Jesus, gave him strength, and told him what to say as with any other prophet. And that Jesus was a really obedient man and loved God more than any other, and for that he was given power as God over us, though still a man who could do nothing without God himself.

 

[karens1234]

Well again, what big challenge or sacrifice is it for God to become a man and live without sin? Heck if I had superpowers like God I guess I could live without sin too.

It totally minimizes the sacrifices the man Jesus had to make, to resist accepting kingdoms from Satan, to give up a wife and kids to go preach God’s Word often to people who hated him, to facing death on the cross with nothing else but faith to assure him he wouldn’t stay dead.

Besides all that, what kind of an example is that supposed to be for the rest of us. Be like Jesus, even though he was a God who could do anything? Nonsense, who would even try.

So I see no good reason for God to become a man here except to satisfy Gentile habits of worshiping demigods.

I only see that God was with Jesus, gave him strength, and told him what to say as with any other prophet. And that Jesus was a really obedient man and loved God more than any other, and for that he was given power as God over us, though still a man who could do nothing without God himself.

 

[holdencaulfield]

You really shouldn’t believe any material that you read on Wikipedia as it is merely opinion that has no authority at all. The Holy Trinity does not induce any division into God. To say that the Holy Trinity is hard to understand is merely close-minded.

I think that we would all agree that a cube would be considered one object. But it is made out of six squares is it not. God is one being yet he is made out of three persons.

Also consider this:

“God is love.” (1 John 4:16)

I think that we would agree that God is unchanging. So in the beginning if God was the only being in existence, who could he love. If we believe the doctrine of the Holy Trinity than we would know that from the beginning of time that God loves his Son. So in this case the Holy Trinity would always and must exist in order for God to exist. Jews reject this truth, because they see the Holy Trinity as dividing God. We all know that God cannot be divided, and the Holy Trinity does not do this. Do the six squares divide the cube. No!

“it does not divide the divine unity” (CCC 255)

“The Trinity is One” (CCC 253)

 

[abucs]

karens1234 the wiki quote on religions is all very good.
now back to God and the burning bush if you wouldn’t mind.

The term synoptic and non synoptic is all very good.
Now back to the Koran saying the bible is the word of God if you wouldn’t mind.

Ignoring questions regarding basic logic doesn’t mean they go away.

FOA, it is you i beleive who are twisting things. You say that God came to dwell in a man. We are nearly saying the same thing, but there was not a man and then God said hey, i’ll use him.

If we look at the birth of Christ, in fact before the birth of Christ, we see that God is said as having a hand in it. There was no human father to Jesus. Why ? If he wanted to use any man, sure why didn’t he just do that instead of making a ‘special’ incarnation with no human Father ? Obviously something was different, was it not.

Jesus also got into trouble with the Jewish Pharisees because he said ‘Before Moses, I AM’.

And we know what ‘I AM’ meant to the Jews from Abraham onwards. That’s why they killed him, for blasphemy.

You are coming from the ‘Koran as truth’ angle and trying to fit and ignore not just NT text, or OT text on the eternal importance of the Messiah, but also the whole history of the Christian Church.

 

[abucs]

FOA, you are not understanding what ‘taking on the form of man’ means.

You are still trying to think of non human God.

I might be a cripple, yet i can play on the computer (take on that form) and take part in plenty of real time adventure games that involve ‘travelling’ from one place to another.

Or i might be a super athlete and play the same game but because of my new form (defined within the rules of the computer) i am no longer a super athlete in that sphere (but that sphere only).

It is taking on the human form with all its frailties that you are not considering. By doing this God is worthy of great respect and praise. His lesson is humility, he has said it in a beautiful and powerful and emotive way.

Islam has nothing like that.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Well again, what big challenge or sacrifice is it for God to become a man and live without sin? Heck if I had superpowers like God I guess I could live without sin too.

It totally minimizes the sacrifices the man Jesus had to make, to resist accepting kingdoms from Satan, to give up a wife and kids to go preach God’s Word often to people who hated him, to facing death on the cross with nothing else but faith to assure him he wouldn’t stay dead.

Besides all that, what kind of an example is that supposed to be for the rest of us. Be like Jesus, even though he was a God who could do anything? Nonsense, who would even try.

So I see no good reason for God to become a man here except to satisfy Gentile habits of worshiping demigods.

I only see that God was with Jesus, gave him strength, and told him what to say as with any other prophet. And that Jesus was a really obedient man and loved God more than any other, and for that he was given power as God over us, though still a man who could do nothing without God himself.

The Son of God becoming man does not reduce the sacrifice that Christ lived. We know that Christ lived without sin. However the Son of God died upon a cross in order for everyone to achieve salvation. Why would he have to die in such a brutal way? Because He wanted to. He did not have to die yet, he did now this is really a personal sacrifice. Yet Christ also had a human nature as well as a divine nature. He experienced life as we all do, yet without sin because he is God. He still was sad, and had human like emotions. God does not have to take on human emotions yet he did for mankind. If this is not a sacrifice to go from all powerful to a helpless infant then you really have no idea of what sacrifice really is.

“For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.” (Hebrews 2:17-18)

 

[karens1234]

Exactly, Karen you are right in saying that the Son of God was not man in the beginning, however He became man in order to reconcile humanity with his Father.

---

So what you are having is a problem weather God really did become man. (CCC 464)

Your Catholic Son of God himslef was not your God?

When your Catholic God became a man (Son of your God), where was “His” Catholic Father? Was “He” not “Catholic Himself”? Then to whom your Catholic God (Jesus, Son of God) used to pray to save his life and from who he was so afraid that he cried out loudly with tears ?:

"In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence." – Hebrews 5:7 ( New Testamnet - The NAB)

Do you mean your Catholic God used to cry with tears to save his own life?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FOA, it is you i beleive who are twisting things. You say that God came to dwell in a man. We are nearly saying the same thing, but there was not a man and then God said hey, i’ll use him.

If we look at the birth of Christ, in fact before the birth of Christ, we see that God is said as having a hand in it. There was no human father to Jesus. Why ? If he wanted to use any man, sure why didn’t he just do that instead of making a ‘special’ creation with no human Father ? Obviously something was different, was it not.

Jesus was the child God killed to pay for David’s sin of having Uriah killed, then resurrected Jesus into Mary’s womb. Then God killed Jesus on the cross to pay for Israel’s sin, then resurrected Jesus into Joseph’s tomb to fulfill God’s promise to David for his son to be Messiah. That all fits prophetically.

God becoming a man only fits with Gentile mythology of Osiris, Dionysus, Apollo, etc.

Jesus also got into trouble with the Jewish Pharisees because he said ‘Before Moses, I AM’.

And we know what ‘I AM’ meant to the Jews from Abraham onwards. That’s why they killed him, for blasphemy.

If you compare that discussion to Hebrews regarding Melchizedek you’ll see Jesus was talking about him being greater than Abraham as the one Abraham pays tithe to, and he as High Priest to Abraham. Jesus wasn’t saying he was God at all, he was saying he was greater than Abraham and for that they hated him more. They wanted to kill him even before he said that anyway, if you read the text.

You are coming from the ‘Koran as truth’ angle and trying to fit and ignore not just NT text, or OT text on the eternal importance of the Messiah, but also the whole history of the Christian Church.

If you ever read my posts you see how much I gripe that Christians ignore OT prophecy of Messiah in favor of their tradition. I’m by the book as far as that goes.

 

[holdencaulfield]

FOA, you are not understanding what ‘taking on the form of man’ means.

You are still trying to think of non human God.

I might be a cripple, yet i can play on the computer (take on that form) and take part in plenty of real time adventure games that involve ‘travelling’ from one place to another.

Or i might be a super athlete and play the same game but because of my new form (defined within the rules of the computer) i am no longer a super athlete in that sphere (but that sphere only).

It is taking on the human form with all its frailties that you are not considering. By doing this God is worthy of great respect and praise. His lesson is humility, he has said it in a beautiful and powerful and emotive way.

Islam has nothing like that.

Thank you,

That is very true. How can you not understand that God made a sacrifice by becoming weak. If you were the king of the world do you think that it would be a sacrifice to become a lowly servant. Of course it would.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

It is taking on the human form with all its frailties that you are not considering.

Knowing the whole time He is God who can snap his fingers at any time to be God again. Humans don’t have that luxury. So I don’t buy it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Son of God becoming man does not reduce the sacrifice that Christ lived. We know that Christ lived without sin.

Yet who is the God that decides what sin is, pretty convenient. Still isn’t convincing. Emotional and warms the heart, but doesn’t compute intellectually and theologically.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Your Catholic Son of God himslef was not your God?

When your Catholic God became a man (Son of your God), where was “His” Catholic Father? Was “He” not “Catholic Himself”? Then to whom your Catholic God (Jesus, Son of God) used to pray to save his life and from who he was so afraid that he cried out loudly with tears ?:

"In the days when he was in the flesh, he offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to the one who was able to save him from death, 5 and he was heard because of his reverence." – Hebrews 5:7 ( New Testamnet - The NAB)

Do you mean your Catholic God used to cry with tears to save his own life?

Yes indeed that’s what makes it so wonderful. As a Catholic we believe in God as three persons so the Son talking to the Father indicates no division. For the Son of God willingly took on the form of a man and knew that he would die.

“Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered” (Hebrews 5:8)

As the poster before me said God learned humility or at least experienced it through his Son.

Christ new that he would die. He knew that the Father would send him to his death. If you were not about to die would you not cry?

Jesus predicts his death many times, he knew this would happen here is an example:

“Then Jesus told them, You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you.” (John 12:35)

 

[karens1234]

FOA, you are not understanding what ‘taking on the form of man’ means.

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Islam has nothing like that.

Islam and Judaism (in general), are very clear on who God is, thus there is no confusion in these great monothiestic two religions.

It is Christianity (of almost all churches and sects) that is so confusing about the very concept of their Christian God, let alone other issues.

Although an independent critical study of Gospels, shows how seriously wrong are Christians’ interpretations/understandings.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Yet who is the God that decides what sin is, pretty convenient. Still isn’t convincing. Emotional and warms the heart, but doesn’t compute intellectually and theologically.

In stating that what God says is not absolute, you commit blasphemy regardless of what religion you abide to.

 

[holdencaulfield]

Knowing the whole time He is God who can snap his fingers at any time to be God again. Humans don’t have that luxury. So I don’t buy it.

He couldn’t because he didn’t want to. God cannot contradict himself. He wanted to sacrifice himself. Furthermore if Christ could just become God again, it wouldn’t even matter because he didn’t.

“Jesus cried out in a loud voice, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? --which means, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34)

If Christ would be selfish enough to contradict the Father’s wishes for him to die, and thus contradict His own wishes, then he would have done so at His death, which he did not he died for everyone even you who don’t accept him.

“And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ” (Romans 1:6)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

“Then Jesus told them, You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you.” (John 12:35)

I agree with Christians that Jesus has power of God over us now. So we aren’t that different. It’s just how he got there where we part ways.

Muslims say Jesus is Messiah but they don’t really know what that means. Some Muslims even look for another Messiah because they’ve been so turned off from Christianity. As do Jews who believe in a Messiah of David but not Jesus.

So I just think you could being more Jews and Muslims to greater understanding and acceptance of Jesus as Messiah if you saw it more my way and ditch all that Gentile mythology stuff that creates so much confusion and skepticism among us monotheists.