Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

They had nothing solid before Jesus’ reply, remember!

All along it was Jesus claiming to be Messiah, which never meant being God, only the highest human being who has the power of God, the promised King of David.

John 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar’s friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

The whole problem with Christian doctrine is that so many Christians don’t really even know what “Messiah” is or what he does in all the OT prophecies, they just think Christ means God and that’s a bad red herring which obscures the facts of the matter, as well as understanding of why they really wanted to kill him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

How could Jesus even say that if he didn’t have the authority to do so? And how did he get to have his own throne? You don’t have a statement like that from any Prophet of Israel, even from Moses…

Because God gives all that to him, not because he is God who already has it all on his own. That’s made 100% clear.

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Hebrews 5:4-6 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron. So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

if you believe the authors of the NT were Jews, and if you believe they knew previous scriptures, and you read the parallelism in wording and context between the I AM of God in OT and i AM of Jesus in the NT,it is on you to prove it was all a coincidence, or that the Jewish writers were joking, or that they had no idea what they were talking about.

And if you believe the authors were Jews, yet Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the searcher of hearts, the creator, the giver of divine peace, the giver of wisdom, the giver of the Holy Spirit, the Judge of destiny, the omnipotent and omipresent, then it is on you to prove these Jewish authors were either polytheistic, or they did not read their scriptures.

Jesus was replying to being asked if he was greater than Abraham, not to being questioned as to if Jesus was Jehovah. And he replied that yes, he is greater, and he is as Abraham’s High Priest. But not greater as Jehovah, who gives everything to Jesus who is just a man with no power of his own.

The blind man also said I AM but it was also in response to a question, not the blind man saying he is God.

 

[inJESUS]

so many **Christians **don’t really even know what “Messiah” is or what he does in all the OT prophecies, they just think Christ means God.

Christians did not write that the Messiah is the omnipotent and omnipresent creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the searcher of hearts and minds, the resurrection and life, the giver of the Holy Spirit, the giver of Wisdom, the giver of divine peace, the judge over our destiny.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Christians did not write that the Messiah is the omnipotent and omnipresent creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the searcher of hearts and minds, the resurrection and life, the giver of the Holy Spirit, the giver of Wisdom, the giver of divine peace, the judge over our destiny.

No one wrote that, you are confusing the prophet Jesus with the messages he delivered from God. That’s God speaking through Jesus as a prophet and Messiah, the spokesman for God. You aren’t getting that because you ignore everything Jesus said about having no power of his own, the NT says Jesus gets everything – judgment, word, even life – from God.

 

[Lapell]

Because God gives all that to him, not because he is God who already has it all on his own. That’s made 100% clear.
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Of course! Where Jesus is, there are God the Father and the Holy Spirit also! Where God the Father acts, it’s along with His only begotten Son (not created-as a previous statement of someone else mistakenly put it-) and the Holy Spirit! And where there is the Holy Spirit, there also is God the Father and the Son!
They are one, truly one! Like we say: “In the NAME (not “the names”) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen!”

 

[Lapell]

No one wrote that, you are confusing the prophet Jesus with the messages he delivered from God. That’s God speaking through Jesus as a prophet and Messiah, the spokesman for God. You aren’t getting that because you ignore everything Jesus said about having no power of his own, the NT says Jesus gets everything – judgment, word, even life – from God.

Say! Just how are you so sure it is as you say and not otherwise? Do you claim to understand the Word of God in the New Testament better than Jesus’ own disciples? How would it be so, if I may?

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus was replying to being asked if he was greater than Abraham, not to being questioned as to if Jesus was Jehovah. And he replied that yes, he is greater, and he is as Abraham’s High Priest. But not greater as Jehovah, who gives everything to Jesus who is just a man with no power of his own.

you are talking about John’s gospel. There are many I AM references…why dont you tell us what did he have in mind while drawing all the parallelism between the I AM of God in OT and I AM of Jesus in NT?

The blind man also said I AM but it was also in response to a question, not the blind man saying he is God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Of course! Where Jesus is, there are God the Father and the Holy Spirit also! Where God the Father acts, it’s along with His only begotten Son (not created-as a previous statement of someone else mistakenly put it-) and the Holy Spirit! And where there is the Holy Spirit, there also is God the Father and the Son!
They are one, truly one! Like we say: “In the NAME (not “the names”) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen!”

Well Jesus was created a human prophet according to the flesh of David, then for his obedience he is forevermore elevated to be the Word of God to us, ruling as God over us. But still a servant of God.

That’s the correct way to say it, then we don’t have all the Trinity fumbling with trying to explain how God’s servant, who gets everything from God, can also be that exact same God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Say! Just how are you so sure it is as you say and not otherwise? Do you claim to understand the Word of God in the New Testament better than Jesus’ own disciples? How would it be so, if I may?

I claim that they never once said Jesus is Jehovah. Because there is no godly reason God would be praying to Himself to save His own life, for one of many many reasons.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

 

[FaithofAbraham]

you are talking about John’s gospel. There are many I AM references…why dont you tell us what did he have in mind while drawing all the parallelism between the I AM of God in OT and I AM of Jesus in NT?

did the blind man say the exact words of I AM said by God in OT as does Jesus?

Christians invent those parallels, Jesus never said is, was, always will be God. All he ever said was that he is a servant of God who gets all his power from God.

 

[inJESUS]

No one wrote that.

then you are reading the Quran, not the Bible. What i wrote are all in the NT.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

then you are reading the Quran, not the Bible. What i wrote are all in the NT.

You are saying anywhere I AM is used, that means God.

 

[inJESUS]

Well Jesus was created a human prophet according to the flesh of David, then for his obedience he is forevermore elevated to be the Word of God to us, ruling as God over us. But still a servant of God.

**That’s the correct way to say it./**QUOTE] the Bible says He is the Creator, not a creature…He is the Word, and He is God, not elevated to the Word. Your words are innovation . Repeating them again and again does not mean the Bible will be changed to suit your views.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

the Bible says He is the Creator, not a creature…He is the Word, and He is God, not elevated to the Word. Your words are innovation . Repeating them again and again does not mean the Bible will be changed to suit your views.

Your insisting that Jesus made himself from the seed of David is the innovation here. So I’m correcting your error to show you God made Jesus same as all children of God, then elevated Jesus to great power but still a servant of God.

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

[ralphinal]

Hamba, my friend, I am confused.

You say that unless we accept that God will send some to hell we cannot understand what Islam teaches. I understand that.

Then, you say that unless we know the 99 names, we cannot go on. I know these names.

Then, you say that some of these names point to attributes that make “Allah the greatest terrorist.” I see how you come to that conclusion.

Then, you say that unless we accept that God will send some to hell, we cannot understand what Islam teaches.

Are we back at the beginning? What does Islam teach? Is it that God punishes the wrongdoer? Please help me see what you are saying.

 

[hamba2han]

Hamba, my friend, I am confused.

You say that unless we accept that God will send some to hell we cannot understand what Islam teaches. I understand that.

Then, you say that unless we know the 99 names, we cannot go on. I know these names.

Then, you say that some of these names point to attributes that make “Allah the greatest terrorist.” I see how you come to that conclusion.

Then, you say that unless we accept that God will send some to hell, we cannot understand what Islam teaches.

Are we back at the beginning? What does Islam teach? Is it that God punishes the wrongdoer? Please help me see what you are saying.

What I am saying is that not a single one of the creations will be sending themselves to Hell because it will be God Himself who will deliver judgment on His creations and subsequently send them to the Hell-fire.

This is a fundamental aspect of God’s attribute that very many Christians have great difficulty in reconciling with their perception of an all-loving God and hence this is a major stumbling block which prevents them from understanding Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

Originally Posted by inJESUS
Christians did not write that the Messiah is the omnipotent and omnipresent creator of this universe, the Alpha and Omega, the searcher of hearts and minds, the resurrection and life, the giver of the Holy Spirit, the giver of Wisdom, the giver of divine peace, the judge over our destiny.

No one wrote that,

Messiah is the omnipotent and omnipresent creator of this universe

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Creator

‘If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and WE will come to him and make OUR home with him.’" John 14:23 Omnipresence, Omnipotence

For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Matthew 18:20 Omnipresence

I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Matthew 28:20 Omnipresence

the Alpha and Omega

"Do not be afraid. **I am the first and the last **Revelation 1

the searcher of hearts and minds

Thus shall all the churches come to know that **I am the searcher of hearts and minds **and that I will give each of you what your works deserve. Revelation 2

the resurrection and life

John 11:25

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies

Deut 32:39

'See now that I, I am, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life.

the giver of the Holy Spirit,

And when he had said this, **he breathed **on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

the giver of Wisdom

Remember, you are not to prepare your defense beforehand,
for **I myself shall give you a wisdom in speaking **that all your adversaries will be powerless to resist or refute. Luke 20-15

the giver of divine peace

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid

the judge over our destiny

I will give each of you what your works deserve. Revelation 2

Now you will say everything Jesus does He received from His Father, which is correct, because whatevr the Father does, the Son does likewise because He is His Word.

In light of these very very few quotes, you can give these conclusions:

either the writers are saying God gave Jesus “the creature” the attributes of God : creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, knower of hearts and mind, sender of Holy Spirit, Alpha and Omega,giver of wisdom and peace, judge over our lives ecc… in other words, God made of Jesus another God and hence polytheism. Since they were Jews, this is rejected

or the writers themselves believed in many gods- rejected as well

or the writers are attributing to Jesus everything the Father does because He and the Father are One, showed in the abundance of parallelism of God and Jesus as in the I AM statements and others.

 

[ralphinal]

What I am saying is that not a single one of the creations will be sending themselves to Hell because it will be God Himself who will be the One delivering judgment on His creations and subsequently sending them to the Hell-fire.

This is a fundamental aspect of God’s attribute that very many Christians have great difficulty in reconciling with their perception of an all-loving God and hence this is a major stumbling block which prevents them from understanding Islam.

Thank you. Now I am beginning to see. So, will those that are sent to hell have erned it? Will they know why they are sent to hell or is it arbitrary?

 

[inJESUS]

You are saying anywhere I AM is used, that means God.

no, i repeated more than **thrice **that it is not about the " i am", but about the I AM in the same context and i gave examples. Instead of replying by twisting what i said 3 times already in simple english, as if you don’t get what am saying, why don’t you show all of us that John did not know what he was talking about while drawing all the parallelism i quoted earlier.