Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

either the writers are saying God gave Jesus “the creature” the attributes of God : creator, omnipotent, omnipresent, knower of hearts and mind, sender of Holy Spirit, Alpha and Omega,giver of wisdom and peace, judge over our lives ecc… in other words, God made of Jesus another God and hence polytheism. Since they were Jews, this is rejected

This is more it right here and is not polytheism since Jesus isn’t elevated to rule as God/Jehovah, but elevated to rule like God/Jehovah over us, the kind of power Moses had over his people.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

Jews have to refute their own Exodus if they want to claim a man can’t be made like a God over us.

 

[inJESUS]

Christians invent those parallels.

those paralleles are in the OT and NT. Did John write them by coincidence?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

no, i repeated more than **thrice **that it is not about the " i am", but about the I AM in the same context and i gave examples. Instead of replying by twisting what i said 3 times already in simple english, as if you don’t get what am saying, why don’t you show all of us that John did not know what he was talking about while drawing all the parallelism i quoted earlier.

Jesus was never talking about being God in the first place, but being greater than Abraham in his Melchizedek Priesthood. We all, even Abraham, have to go through Jesus the High Priest to get to God, that’s what makes Jesus greater than Abraham but still a servant of God.

Again you are just trying to mash and squish God and Jesus together when that’s not what we’re told.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

So I mean really, do you know what “between” means and what “the man” means? It means a man that is not God, but between man and God as a mediator.

 

[inJESUS]

I claim that they never once said Jesus is Jehovah.

of course they don’t since Jesus is not the Father but the Word and the Word in flesh…a point stressed too many times already for you to repeat it…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

of course they don’t since Jesus is not the Father but the Word and the Word in flesh…a point stressed too many times already for you to repeat it…

Ok then let’s forget about it, neither of us will agree on his inherent nature, and it isn’t being cleared up by this debate.

So let’s just agree that Jesus rules like God over us, either as God (YOU) or as a man given that power by God (ME) and leave it.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus was never talking about being God in the first place, but being greater than Abraham in his Melchizedek Priesthood.

will you or will you not adress John’s parallelism of all the I AM statement?

So I mean really, do you know what “between” means and what “the man” means? It means a man that is not God, but between man and God as a mediator.

 

[hamba2han]

Thank you. Now I am beginning to see. So, will those that are sent to hell have erned it? Will they know why they are sent to hell or is it arbitrary?

Oh, yes they will most certainly know the reasons why they have earned their ultimate fate because on the Day of Judgment there will be a “video replay” of all of their deeds while in this world and which will be viewed by all of humankind assembled on that Day.

 

[inJESUS]

will yuo or will you not adress **all **the I AM statement as understood by John? are all these passages a mere “coincidence”? wasn’t John inspired? wasn’t he aware of the implications? do you know more than him what message he was giving by all his parallelism?

 

[ralphinal]

Oh, yes they will most certainly know the reasons why they have earned their ultimate fate because on the Day of Judgment there will be a “video replay” of all of their deeds while in this world and which will be viewed by all of humankind assembled on that Day.

And Christians agree. Here is the difference between what you are saying and what we beleive. Christians say that since those who go to hell are going because of things that they did (or failed to do), then it was their actions that cause God to send them. Since it is their actions that bring on the sentence, they, in effect, send themselves to hell. God pronounces the judgement, yes, but they chose to do what they did and they erned the punishment. Now, there are some who wrongly believe that no one will be in hell or that hell is temporary, but they are totally misguided.

Does this make sense?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

will yuo or will you not adress **all **the I AM statement as understood by John? are all these passages a mere “coincidence”? wasn’t John inspired? wasn’t he aware of the implications? do you know more than him what message he was giving by all his parallelism?

I already addressed the very first one, referring it to Isaiah is in error:

Isaiah 43:10-12
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am.John 13:1-19
"From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am.

It refers to Psalms and being the Messiah betrayed by his friend, not to being God in Isaiah:

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

So let’s not start this endless circle all over again. We should both just agree to disagree on the details, and be happy we both accept Jesus as any form of leader over us, considering all the people in the world who just throw him away as nothing.

So that’s all.

 

[inJESUS]

This is more it right here and is not polytheism since Jesus isn’t elevated to rule as God/Jehovah, but elevated to rule like God/Jehovah over us, the kind of power Moses had over his people.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

Jews have to refute their own Exodus if they want to claim a man can’t be made like a God over us.

made like a god is one thing, and BEING the creator, the Alpha and Omega, the Judge, the Giver of wisdom is something else. And since you believe Moses was a god over Israel, was he the creator, the Alpha and Omega, the breather of Holy Spirit, the Judge of humanity, the giver of wisdom? if not, then on what basis are you comparing what is written about Moses as a god, to what is written about Jesus as God?

 

[inJESUS]

Ok then let’s forget about it, neither of us will agree on his inherent nature, and it isn’t being cleared up by this debate.

it is not about agreeing…it is about understanding first… threads may become chaotic, but this does not mean that we have to repeat forever that the Word is not the Father yet it proceeds from Him and hence is One in essence.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

it is not about agreeing…it is about understanding first… threads may become chaotic, but this does not mean that we have to repeat forever that the Word is not the Father yet it proceeds from Him and hence is One in essence.

You posted Isaiah 43:10-12 again after I showed you a long time ago that John 13 actually refers to Psalms 41:9. So I know you aren’t paying any attention and I’m wasting my time, there’s no reason to keep discussion going if you are just going to reply with scripted reactions without even thinking about it.

So I’m done discussing this issue with you, it’s arguing just for the sake of arguing now.

 

[hamba2han]

And Christians agree. Here is the difference between what you are saying and what we beleive. Christians say that since those who go to hell are going because of things that they did (or failed to do), then it was their actions that cause God to send them. Since it is their actions that bring on the sentence, they, in effect, send themselves to hell. God pronounces the judgement, yes, but they chose to do what they did and they erned the punishment. Now, there are some who wrongly believe that no one will be in hell or that hell is temporary, but they are totally misguided.

Does this make sense?

Someone who has done a great deal of sin throughout his life can find himself in Paradise and someone who has performed numerous good deeds can find himself in Hell.

Why is this so?

Because it is not they who gets to decide where their final destination is but rather, their Creator is the only One who will decide on their ultimate fate and subsequently send them there.

Not a single one of His creations is going to enter Paradise or Hell without His “authorization”.

 

[inJESUS]

I already addressed the very first one, referring it to Isaiah is in error:

since John uses abundantly the statements, it would be too narrow to base our understanding on one passage, instead of drawing our understanding from the general theme of the author.

Isaiah 43:10-12
“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen,** In order that **

 

[inJESUS]

You posted Isaiah 43:10-12 again after I showed you a long time ago that John 13 actually refers to Psalms 41:9…

and i answerd you that Psalm does not fit the I AM theme and context. It is about how God refers to Himself and how Jesus refers to Himself. Psalm simply does not fit the I AM discussion in which i quoted I AM statements by God and Jesus.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

since John uses abundantly the statements, it would be too narrow to base our understanding on one passage, instead of drawing our understanding from the general theme of the author.

where is the I AM wording and context in Psalm?
Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

nowhere. The point is about John’s use of I AM in OT and NT. Psalms do not fit this point.

Do you mean you can’t see that John and Psalms here are about the same thing? I think you are just messing with me. This is why I’m ending this discussion, I keep letting myself get drawn back into this silliness and it needs to end.

Psalms 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me. ME AS IN JESUS, THE GUY WHO IS BETRAYED

John 13:18-19 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that** I am he**. HE AS IN THE GUY WHO IS BETRAYED BY HIS FRIEND

 

[planten]

And Christians agree. Here is the difference between what you are saying and what we beleive. Christians say that since those who go to hell are going because of things that they did (or failed to do), then it was their actions that cause God to send them. Since it is their actions that bring on the sentence, they, in effect, send themselves to hell. God pronounces the judgement, yes, but they chose to do what they did and they erned the punishment. Now, there are some who wrongly believe that no one will be in hell or that hell is temporary, but they are totally misguided.
Does this make sense?

what you wrote above (shown in blue) is correct. What is shown in red is wrong. Hell in fact is temporary. That is the Islamic teaching. There will be a time when the hell will be empty and there will be no one in it.

But Paradise is for ever. Also, even though people will enter paradise because of theirr good deeds, it is believed that salvation will be by the Grace of God, not just by the good deeds.

It is also believed that a person will do lot of good deeds and he will be destined for paradise but he may in the end at sometime do something so much bad that he will end up in hell. Similarly, a man may do all evil and be marked for hell but at the last time he may do some extra good work and he may not go to hell at all.

Therefore, every one has to repent and be on their guard about their acts/ deeds all the time, never to fail the commandments of God.

 

[ralphinal]

Hamba and Planten,

Am I reading it correctly that in order for a great sinner to end in paradise, they must repent of the sin and do the work of God? That is coherent with Christian teaching.

Now, Christians understand that Hell is final and there will be no leaving once you are there. This is based on the Biblical teachings. Both hell and heaven are permanent.

Now, I understand what you are saying about you do not get into Paradise or go to hell without the Judge allowing it. I would say though that no one is sent to hell that did not deserve it, and no one will be in Paradise that did not ern it as well.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, By the way - I wasn’t bragging, I was stating a fact. On other websites people don’t believe what I say so I usually have to prove it with websites and books. Of course, I don’t expect many to look any further than the websites, that is why I include them. For the ‘maybe’ one out there - I include the books.

I will continue to use this as my style. If you prefer not to go any further - than so be it, do what you will. I want to back up my words and find this the only way that I can do so.

What I think is happening I responded to a post by Lapell, and you are interjecting here - which is fine. I just got confused.

It’s OK buddy. It looked like you were picking on me for nothing, while actually, my posts were supporting you. BTW I was clearly responding to Paarsurrey post then.

You can read all my previous posts. Just click on my nick and you can read them. I’m asking so that you know where I stand. A couple of years back I started a thread on Muslims and St Paul too. If you find hard enough it should still be there.

The argument back then was perhaps more civil. There were Muslims who would really like to dialogue with you and not necessary that we must agree with each other.

Presently you have people like FaithofAbraham and Hamba2han who actually are forum trolls. They have agendas here. Two of them are to deflect any discussion that focuses on Mohammad and to flood the forum with nonsense to create confusion about Jesus being divine. Not that we we become confused by their childishness but it can be quite trying, and some of us lose a bit of our cool. Their actions can degenerate the quality of the discussion in the forum, which is not a good thing.

I have been engaged in few debates with Muslims in Islamic webistes. If I were to behave like them, I would be banned long time ago there. So that goes to show how intolerant they are which should be a compliment to this forum, especially to the moderators. I suppose that God does need not defending and the truth will prevail, there is nothing to be afraid of.

We need to be fair with them too. No use trying to conjure things that have not been documented as reasonable truth. If you are sure of them, well, never mind you can go ahead. But you can lose your credibilty by bringing hearsays that are not adequately supported by facts.

I like some of your posts though.

Peace.

Reuben