Saint Paul and Islam

[planten]

Hamba and Planten,

Am I reading it correctly that in order for a great sinner to end in paradise, they must repent of the sin and do the work of God? That is coherent with Christian teaching.

Now, Christians understand that Hell is final and there will be no leaving once you are there. This is based on the Biblical teachings. Both hell and heaven are permanent.

Now, I understand what you are saying about you do not get into Paradise or go to hell without the Judge allowing it. I would say though that no one is sent to hell that did not deserve it, and no one will be in Paradise that did not ern it as well.

I repeat the words of my last post: Hell is not for ever. Paradise is forever. That is the Muslim belief. It may be good or not and it may suit you or not. But that is how it is.

In your last para, it is alright to say like that. But the answer again is that onlygood deeds will not entitle any one to paradise. The person will enter paradise because of his good deeds because that is the promise of Allah. Allah never fails in His promise. But just the good deeds are not a ticket to paradise. The salvation will be by the Grace (Blessings) of Allah.

Allah is not the judge but He is the Master of the day of Judgement. Al-Quran 1:3, shown below:

[1:0] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:1] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:2] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:3] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:4] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:5] Guide us in the right path –
[1:6] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.

 

[ralphinal]

I repeat the words of my last post: Hell is not for ever. Paradise is forever. That is the Muslim belief. It may be good or not and it may suit you or not. But that is how it is.

In your last para, it is alright to say like that. But the answer again is that onlygood deeds will not entitle any one to paradise. The person will enter paradise because of his good deeds because that is the promise of Allah. Allah never fails in His promise. But just the good deeds are not a ticket to paradise. The salvation will be by the Grace (Blessings) of Allah.

Allah is not the judge but He is the Master of the day of Judgement. Al-Quran 1:3, shown below:

[1:0] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful
[1:1] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:2] The Gracious, the Merciful,
[1:3] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:4] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:5] Guide us in the right path –
[1:6] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.

why is hell temporary? How is that fair to those who faithfully serve God?

 

[hamba2han]

Now, I understand what you are saying about you do not get into Paradise or go to hell without the Judge allowing it. I would say though that no one is sent to hell that did not deserve it, and no one will be in Paradise that did not earn it as well.

I think that you may be beginning to understand Islam.

The point to remember here is that no one is going to send themselves to Paradise no matter how much good deeds they do and no one will send themselves to the Hell-fire no matter how sinful they may have been… even if they plead and beg to be sent to Hell, they will not enter the Fire until and unless their Creator decides to send them there.

In other words, the view of many Christians that it is not God who sends His creations to Hell but rather it is really the creations who will send themselves to the Hell-fire is totally nonsensical according to the teachings of Islam.

 

[ralphinal]

I think that you may be beginning to understand Islam.

The point to remember here is that no one is going to send themselves to Paradise no matter how much good deeds they do and no one will send themselves to the Hell-fire no matter how sinful they may have been… even if they plead and beg to be sent to Hell, they will not enter the Fire until and unless their Creator decides to send them there.

In other words, the view of many Christians that it is not God who sends His creations to Hell but rather it is really the creations who will send themselves to the Hell-fire is totally nonsensical according to the teachings of Islam.

I may simply be seeing it as an issue of semantics. You say that God sends people where they deserve to go, I say their choices dictate where God sends them. Either way, we get what we deserve. Will God allow an evil man who died unrepentant into Paradise? Will he send a good man to hell?

 

[hamba2han]

Will God allow an evil man who died unrepentant into Paradise? Will he send a good man to hell?

Probably not.

However, in Islam, what constitutes whether something is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ is determined by the Creator alone, NOT the creations.

A “good” man in the eyes of his fellow creations may not be seen as good in the eyes of his Creator.

 

[ralphinal]

Probably not.

However, in Islam, what constitutes whether something is ‘good’ or ‘evil’ is determined by the Creator alone, NOT the creations.

A “good” man in the eyes of his fellow creations may not be seen as good in the eyes of his Creator.

In Christianity, we have an outline of what the Creator cinsiders good and evil, so that there is no question. Is there a similar thing in Islam? I would agree if you mean that only God knows the content of our hearts, and some who seem good may not be. If you are saying that it is arbitrary and there is no way to be sure if something is right or wrong, I disagree.

 

[hamba2han]

In Christianity, we have an outline of what the Creator considers good and evil, so that there is no question. Is there a similar thing in Islam? I would agree if you mean that only God knows the content of our hearts, and some who seem good may not be. If you are saying that it is arbitrary and there is no way to be sure if something is right or wrong, I disagree.

This is not what I am saying at all.

In Islam, ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are not arbitrary concepts but rather they are clearly and explicitly defined in the Qur’an and the Sunnah and so Muslims have very few excuses to offer when we choose to either perform the good deeds or commit the sins that we do.

A good illustration of how Allah will judge His creations on the Day of Judgment can be seen in the case of Abu Talib, the uncle of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who more than anyone else was responsible for protecting Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from his many enemies during the early and critical years of his Prophet-hood in Makkah.

There is no doubt at all that Abu Talib was a “good” man and he indeed helped the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) immensely and unreservedly at a time when his nephew needed it most and he himself suffered great hardship for it as well… but Abu Talib never accepted Islam till the day he died despite all the efforts of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) urging him to do so and by choosing to not become a Muslim, Abu Talib was sent to the Hell-fire.

 

[rikkk1958]

I am not really very familiar with Muhammed. I was told that his existence was sometime in the year 622 AD. He was a merchant since boyhood and on a caravan travelling accross the arabian peninsula. I believe that there were many people who preached the word of God especially the Holy Bible along the roads and even on the caravan. Obviously, Muhammed may have heard this teacings. Imagine from bouhood to manhood. He could have also have seen the chaotic situation of the arabian regions where there was lawless government. It is possible that he wanted to write something that would become law of the land and ending up getting information from the Bible. My question is, did Muhammed have a witness when the Angel Gabriel spoke to him? People who does this can have many followers right away. Just like, Joe Smith, Manalo of Iglesia ni Cristo, JW founder, etc. How do you find this theory?

 

[ralphinal]

This is not what I am saying at all.

In Islam, ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are not arbitrary concepts but rather they are clearly and explicitly defined in the Qur’an and the Sunnah and so Muslims have very few excuses to offer when we choose to either perform the good deeds or commit the sins that we do.

A good illustration of how Allah will judge His creations on the Day of Judgment can be seen in the case of Abu Talib, the uncle of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who more than anyone else was responsible for protecting Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from his many enemies during the early and critical years of his Prophet-hood in Makkah.

There is no doubt at all that Abu Talib was a “good” man and he indeed helped the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) immensely and unreservedly at a time when his nephew needed it most and he himself suffered great hardship for it as well… but Abu Talib never accepted Islam till the day he died despite all the efforts of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) urging him to do so and by choosing to not become a Muslim, Abu Talib was sent to the Hell-fire.

I see. I was a little worried that the Koran didn’t spell it out. It makes sense to me. Now, do you agree with Planten that hell is temporary?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In Christianity, we have an outline of what the Creator cinsiders good and evil, so that there is no question. Is there a similar thing in Islam? I would agree if you mean that only God knows the content of our hearts, and some who seem good may not be. If you are saying that it is arbitrary and there is no way to be sure if something is right or wrong, I disagree.

There are a lot of verses that mirror what Jesus taught about how to do good.

And as a bonus here Mohammed even says that the qibla of facing Mecca in prayer is a superficial thing, that it’s most important to turn your heart to God. Which contradicts a lot of Muslim tradition.

Quran 2:177 It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing.

 

[hamba2han]

I see. I was a little worried that the Koran didn’t spell it out. It makes sense to me. Now, do you agree with Planten that hell is temporary?

There are differing views among Islamic scholars concerning this matter, some say that it is forever whereas others say that it is for a temporary period depending on the magnitude and severity of all of the sins that the creations have commited while in this world.

I would tend to go with the view that Hell is somewhat temporary… but subject to the following verse from the Qur’an:

To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin. … [Al-Araf, 007.040]

And also perhaps to the following verses from the Bible:

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” … [Matthew 19:23-25 (New International Version)]

 

[planten]

why is hell temporary? How is that fair to those who faithfully serve God?

I do not know much about that but hell is a cleansing place. Sinners, after serving their sentence will be taken out of hell and will be sent to paradise.

That is proved by the Quran. Because, in the QURAN the life in paradise is mensioned every where with the word “Abada” i.e. evelasting (forever etc.) But when the hell is described the word abada is not used (except in one place). Instead, the word “Khalideen” is used which means an extra ordinary long time. That is not forever. It is only an abnormally long time.

There is a Hadith of the prophet Muhammad that " A time will come on Hell when there will be no one in it and the morning breeze will shake ( rattle?) the doors of hell…"

It is not unfair to the doers of good. You see, there are scales (different standards) of bad deeds or sins. If we follow your formula, then any one who did a small sin and once entered the Hell, he would have to remain there forever. That would not be fair for him. Suffering unending punishment (torture) even for a small crime.

What I have described is the Islamic belief and I have not invented it myself.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Quran confirms what I’ve said, in that Jonah in the sea and belly of hell repenting is a sign of Purgatory, as Jesus also noted his 3 days in the grave would be similar.

Jonah 2:2-3 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the **belly of hell **cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Quran 37:142-144 And the fish swallowed him while he was blameworthy; And had he not been one of those who glorify (Allah) He would have tarried in its belly till the day when they are raised;

 

[R_not]

“In order to begin to understand Islam, one really does need to know the various attributes of the ‘Owner’ of Islam.”

Who is allah?
youtube.com/watch?v=iW4EDy7rxqI

-mohammed was a pagan.
-The kabaa was a pagan temple to the pagan moon god, al-ilah.
-this is an old Babylonian religion.
-muslims and those pagans of mohammed’s religion all have the same ceremonies (which I used to say that this ‘connection’ that muslims claim between Judaism and Christianity is inane - nothing in the muslim’s ceremonies are the same as the other two)
-mohammed even brought in the 3 goddesses at one point - al-lat, al-uzza, and manat, but was advised to take them out.
-islam is the ancient fertility cult (gee, no wonder they are so concerned with the afterlife being very carnal, and the over concern with women and men’s sexual behaviors)
-allah was the high god in a pantheon of deities.
-allah was one of many
-allah, known as habul, and was a statue on top of the kabaa, the moon god.
-‘allah’ replaced ‘habul’.
-the same pagans practiced the pilgrimage to the hajj, the fast of ramadan, running around the kabaa 7 times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down 2 hills, throwing stones at the devil, praying several times a day towards Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc.
-Jews and Christians NEVER used a cresent moon and star as a symbol.

mohammed would quite often create a surah, and say he had a vision, when he wanted something. For example, when he was lusting after his stepson’s wife - he created a surah saying that allah wanted him to have the woman. The stepson gaver her to him due to that surah. Shortly thereafter, mohammed said that adoption was not for muslims and that way this problem would never arise again. (ever wonder why they never adopt? We will adopt any child of any religion - they will not. Instead they kidnap and enslave. and that way they can force conversions and use them any way they want - yep, even sexually - and slavery still is going on in the muslim world.)

1. “I was ordered to fight all men until they say ‘There is no god but Allah.’” prophet Mohammad’s farewell address, March 632
2. “I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Mohammed.”
   Osama bin Laden, Nov 2001

Just do a search on the web for ‘saudi arabia slaves’ or here is a story of a couple who got caught with a slave inside the USA:
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/010998.php

(just think of the ones who are not caught)

If you want to know about mohammed, read it for yourself - ‘The Life and Religion of mohammed’. It will also go over the battles, and the raids that were so numerous that no one knows how many that stole, killed, raped and enslaved people. Of course, mohammed got 1/5th the booty - per his command that allah said he should get 1/5th of it. Yeah right - sort of convenient he see an angel and spout what allah said so he can get some more goodies!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If you want to know about mohammed, read it for yourself - ‘The Life and Religion of mohammed’. It will also go over the battles, and the raids that were so numerous that no one knows how many that stole, killed, raped and enslaved people. Of course, mohammed got 1/5th the booty - per his command that allah said he should get 1/5th of it. Yeah right - sort of convenient he see an angel and spout what allah said so he can get some more goodies!

Anyone can write a book of slander and call it facts. It’s basically a bloated Chick tract, and we all know what Jack Chick says about the RCC too – there is as much evidence of paganism in the RCC as there is in Islam.

 

[R_not]

Anyone can write a book of slander and call it facts. It’s basically a bloated Chick tract, and we all know what Jack Chick says about the RCC too – there is as much evidence of paganism in the RCC as there is in Islam.

FaithofAbraham - yes, just like anyone could have written the koran which in itself is only a book of war tactics against anyone who doesn’t believe in it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FaithofAbraham - yes, just like anyone could have written the koran which in itself is only a book of war tactics against anyone who doesn’t believe in it.

Someone could say the same thing about the book of Joshua if they only had a superficial knowledge of it.

So that’s only more rumor you are running on. Obviously you never read it. Like I just posted about Jonah in the fish confirming Purgatory.

There are a lot of good things like that in the Quran you may never see because Satan likes to turn people against God’s Word.

 

[R_not]

Someone could say the same thing about the book of Joshua if they only had a superficial knowledge of it.

So that’s only more rumor you are running on. Obviously you never read it. Like I just posted about Jonah in the fish confirming Purgatory.

There are a lot of good things like that in the Quran you may never see because Satan likes to turn people against God’s Word.

Not only have I read it, but I have read it and am blogging it now.

And as for any of the OT, or NT, they are telling of a history of what the people did at the time. it is not a directive for us to continue the practice of any violence. And since I am a Christian, where Christ stopped a stoning - mohammed and his followers carry it on, along with beheadings, chopping of limbs, raping, enslavement, torture and murder, lying and stealing.

What is a fact is that you have indeed read it and practice one of mohammed’s directives - ‘war is deception’. I know that any land not of ‘dar al islam’ is ‘dar al harb’ which means a land not under islamic rule/sharia law is a land of war so all jihad is expected of the followers which the violent kind was the most blessed according to mohammed.

But there are many jihads - hudna (if in a time of violence - it is ok to call a truce but it cannot last longer than 10 years and can be broken by a muslim at any time if they are regrouped and rearmed, and if it is in a peaceful time the muslims are immigrating, birthing (with their uncontrolled birth rates) and basically building up their numbers and increasing their demands, etc like they are doing now in Europe, Canada, Australia, and the USA to name a few countries), da’wa, taqiyya/kithman (depending on what sect of islam one is) which means deception to smooth over islam - what you are doing on these posts, and the violent jihad - those who follow those ‘peaceful’ ones and/or get radicalized by imams, and such.

Sorry, the koran is nothing but a book of battle tactics and if you wake up - we are learning about it all the time. You cannot shut us up about that fact. And the crud that ‘one has to be a muslim to understand it’ is hogwash. It is just more deception to make the ignorant ones not try to attempt to read it because then they will know exactly why it should be on a short list of banned books.

And another thing the koran and islam is all about is carnal desires. There is nothing about that tries to make a man/woman try to attain a higher self - instead it only focuses on what is each other’s underwear - even the heaven of al-ilah is about carnal pleasures.

You want to try to say that you are of a part of Judaism and christianity (while trying to slaughter them or subjugate them) but there is nothing about islam that ties it to them except some kludgy stories that an illiterate mohammed tried to put in the koran. Then of course, the guy was sly like a fox and said that the Bible was the book that is distorted - not his version. and you, and so many others, follow like sheep without questioning or finding out the truth.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not only have I read it, but I have read it and am blogging it now.

If it is that one blog with Ibn Abbas Hadith I already proved that one of those entries was completely false.

 

[R_not]

Of course, why would a muslim want to admit that their own koran is ‘full of it’?! They can’t because they are told to kill those who question it and want to leave. The intolerance that is islam comes directly from the koran - and the hadiths. Let us not forget the hadiths. One should read those too - as I have also done.

In fact, they are told to kill those who want to leave, or question mohammed or allah or the koran - while honoring and ulalating over jihadists. The ones who don’t wage that violent jihad are told to support them, their families and the old jihadists. so, the killers go free and the questioners die. And 'honor killings - that is a whole other subject. All one has to do after killing a person or family member is say it was an ‘honor killing’ and they get off scott free. Gee, it is sort of a convenient ‘religion’ for those who like to kill.

And rape - if a woman doesn’t have 4 witnesses to it she is the one who dies. Sort of another convenience - get rid of the victim while the perpetrators (men) can go on living to do their deeds again. My friend saw a beheading of a woman in saudi arabia who didn’t have 4 witnesses. He was very much affected by the cruelty of this ‘religion’. He saw a boy who had his hands chopped off too. In both instances - people were forced to watch - and others watched with glee. Yep, so many of those ‘peaceful’ muslims like to ulalate over such things.