Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

Of course, why would a muslim want to admit that their own koran is ‘full of it’?! They can’t because they are told to kill those who question it and want to leave. The intolerance that is islam comes directly from the koran - and the hadiths. Let us not forget the hadiths. One should read those too - as I have also done.

I guess we need to also take all Christian apocrypha as truth too. No, many Hadith are nonsense, and many Muslims will tell you the same.

You are taking things in the Quran out of context, much as if I cherrypicked Numbers to say right now, we need to kill unbelievers except for the little virgin girls to make sex slaves out of them.

That was apparently how God wanted it then under Moses, for His own reasons. Same with any warfare in the Quran.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So you maybe should explain why loving Jesus, if he is and always has been God, allowed things like that. Before you start in on the Quran. Don’t you think?

 

[R_not]

I guess we need to also take all Christian apocrypha as truth too. No, many Hadith are nonsense, and many Muslims will tell you the same.

You are taking things in the Quran out of context, much as if I cherrypicked Numbers to say right now, we need to kill unbelievers except for the little virgin girls to make sex slaves out of them.

That was apparently how God wanted it then under Moses, for His own reasons. Same with any warfare in the Quran.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

So you maybe should explain why loving Jesus, if he is and always has been God, allowed things like that. Before you start in on the Quran. Don’t you think?

That is the usual answer for when people are on to the koran - we are not understanding of it or taking it out of context when it is used so often by your own to do ‘honor killings’, killing of the infidel, etc. Since ‘shirk’ is worse than killing of the infidel - or any other atrocity against the infidel - that is the only sin for a muslim. Go reread your Chapter called ‘Cattle’.

Since the Jews haven’t used the OT, or their Talmud, for slaughtering massive numbers of Christians - or any other non-Jew - you need to reconsider your quick response that we do. It has been centuries, in fact, a couple of eons, since that was done. And as for slaves - it has been stopped in all religions except for islam.

There is no 10 commandments in the koran and since the muslims don’t read the bible since - as I stated previously - mohammed told them that is was distorted - they don’t feel the need to do so. the only thing distorted are the biblical stories of all the prophets that mohammed included in the koran - that he probably heard stories of since he was an illiterate.

the koran is a dangerous form of nonsense since its stories are kludgy and that thing of abrogation exists in it. The muslims start telling us the peaceful passages but forget to say they were replaced by the newer, Medina, violent passages.

go read the chapter, Repentence, verses 1-5, about incessent jihad against all non-muslims. (funny I have to tell a muslim about his own koran - or is it that he is practicing deception again!) I cannot trust what a muslim says because of the deception they practice when talking to infidels.

"Muslims are taught that they have a central duty to participate in the “struggle” or Jihad to spread Islam, to tear down all barriers to that spread, and then to the dominance, of Islam. You “cannot accept” the idea that Muslims might be inculcated with the notion that the main, the only real division that counts in the world is that between Believer and Infidel. You simply won’t “accept” the Muslim view of Dar al-Islam as necessarily expanding at the expense of Dar al-Harb. "
jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019411.php

I personally find the koran offensive to me as an infidel, as you call me, or a kufir. Since it is a book on battle tactics against me and my kind - it should be banned. The parts that are peaceful would reduce the book to less than half its size.

muslims want to make sure their political movement, oh er I mean ‘religion’, is pushed onto us. They continually are demanding things and it has sped up since 9/11.

jihad - Jews and Christians must be warred against until they submit to Islamic rule, pay a special tax, and “feel themselves subdued” (Qur’an 9:29)

teaching on jihad. Qur’an 4:71-104 is an extended passage exhorting the believers to go forth courageously to jihad warfare.

8:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”

proof that jihad can be non-violent:
jihadwatch.org/archives/018399.php

 

[R_not]

As for Jesus, if He is God, allows things like murderers to continue - well, we have this thing called free will and you make your own way to heaven or hell with that. Unlike allah who has it all figured out (I don’t know how a moon god can do such a thing - our trip to the moon didn’t reveal any gods up there.)

Who is allah - I will post this again:

-mohammed was a pagan.
-The kabaa was a pagan temple to the pagan moon god, al-ilah.
-this is an old Babylonian religion.
-muslims and those pagans of mohammed’s religion all have the same ceremonies (which I used to say that this ‘connection’ that muslims claim between Judaism and Christianity is inane - nothing in the muslim’s ceremonies are the same as the other two)
-mohammed even brought in the 3 goddesses at one point - al-lat, al-uzza, and manat, but was advised to take them out.
-islam is the ancient fertility cult (gee, no wonder they are so concerned with the afterlife being very carnal, and the over concern with women and men’s sexual behaviors)
-allah was the high god in a pantheon of deities.
-allah was one of many
-allah, known as habul, and was a statue on top of the kabaa, the moon god.
-‘allah’ replaced ‘habul’.
-the same pagans practiced the pilgrimage to the hajj, the fast of ramadan, running around the kabaa 7 times, kissing the black stone, shaving the head, animal sacrifices, running up and down 2 hills, throwing stones at the devil, praying several times a day towards Mecca, giving alms, Friday prayers, etc.
-Jews and Christians NEVER used a cresent moon and star as a symbol.

mohammed would quite often create a surah, and say he had a vision, when he wanted something. For example, when he was lusting after his stepson’s wife - he created a surah saying that allah wanted him to have the woman. The stepson gaver her to him due to that surah. Shortly thereafter, mohammed said that adoption was not for muslims and that way this problem would never arise again. (ever wonder why they never adopt? We will adopt any child of any religion - they will not. Instead they kidnap and enslave. and that way they can force conversions and use them any way they want - yep, even sexually - and slavery still is going on in the muslim world.)

1. “I was ordered to fight all men until they say ‘There is no god but Allah.’” prophet Mohammad’s farewell address, March 632
2. “I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah, and his prophet Mohammed.”
   Osama bin Laden, Nov 2001

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That is the usual answer for when people are on to the koran - we are not understanding of it or taking it out of context when it is used so often by your own to do ‘honor killings’, killing of the infidel, etc. Since ‘shirk’ is worse than killing of the infidel - or any other atrocity against the infidel - that is the only sin for a muslim. Go reread your Chapter called ‘Cattle’.

Well like I said, take a crack at explaining Numbers why men, women, and children except for the virgin girls were allowed to be killed. You wouldn’t have Christianity if not for those gory events in the OT, right? So if Jesus is God, why did he allow such butchering to be carried out by Israelites? Why do you think it was ok for them but not for Muslims?

 

[R_not]

Like I told you about freewill, and also the OT telling of history - that is not a directive for the followers. and you take this out of context also - this was a directive to Moses - and it is not practiced to this day - nor has been for eons.

We look at it as a history, as to what happened then. We do not practice it today. Unlike muslims who carry out slavery, torture, death (honor killings, killing infidels), cutting off limbs, female circumscision (this is a gross thing added later to add ‘insult to injury’ to muslim women by muslim males who do not give the same rights to women as the males.

Don’t get me wrong - I am not a bleeding heart for muslim women either - they train their children from the teat to hate. They have been filmed dancing and ulalating not only over the massive deaths of 9/11, but also the children they send as suicide bombers to kill Jews and other infidels. I know - they call them martyrs and are gleeful because that ‘martyr’ can name them as a saved person so they can go to your idea of heaven.

Why do you lurk on a Catholic website? To make sure that everyone stays ignorant of islam and to try to bash the Bible? Too bad - the koran is nothing but a book of battle tactics that is an insult to all infidels (of which I proudly am one of) and should be banned. But, people like you try to make sure people stay ignorant and mislead and redirect while not even acknowledging that you do indeed know of abrogation, the deception that you are to do with infidels to smooth over islam, and your desire for islamic imperialism. And the only way that islam is spread is via the sword because anyone with a normal brain would reject it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Like I told you about freewill, and also the OT telling of history - that is not a directive for the followers. and you take this out of context also - this was a directive to Moses - and it is not practiced to this day - nor has been for eons.

So. Why was it ok then for Israelites but not ok for Muslims? It’s the same God giving the orders.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Here, I’ll help you. It was ok for Israel to invade and butcher because God promised them that land to Abraham.

And God promised Ishmael to be a great nation too.

So it was ok for Israel to do those things. And it was ok for the children of Ishmael to do those things. Because God promised they could to both to become great nations.

So if you are upset about brutality among Israelites or Muslims, tell God about it, He’s the one who said it was ok.

 

[Reuben_J]

[No message]

 

[Reuben_J]

" R_not:

That is the usual answer for when people are on to the koran - we are not understanding of it or taking it out of context when it is used so often by your own to do ‘honor killings’, killing of the infidel, etc. Since ‘shirk’ is worse than killing of the infidel - or any other atrocity against the infidel - that is the only sin for a muslim. Go reread your Chapter called ‘Cattle’.

Well like I said, take a crack at explaining Numbers why men, women, and children except for the virgin girls were allowed to be killed. You wouldn’t have Christianity if not for those gory events in the OT, right? So if Jesus is God, why did he allow such butchering to be carried out by Israelites? Why do you think it was ok for them but not for Muslims?

In other word, allow the Muslims to do the same, in bigger proportion and in perpetuity?

If you believe this, it would mean that Mohammad had to start the work of the Lord all over again, killing and plundering the unbelievers.

Christians do not see any role for anybody after Jesus to do this all over again, certainly not in perpetuity and as guidance in one’s life.

I can attempt to explain to you about the episode in Numbers, but so far no Muslims have agreed to it.

The OT tells us roughly the dynamic and chronological events of God’s actions that mankind experienced. Beginning with the first covenant – the creation and followed by the fall (sin against God caused by disobedience). The consequence of sin is death. … you are surely doomed to die. Gen 1:17].

The love of God necessitates the gift of free will (which Muslims believe too). Thus it was man’s choice whether to obey or to sin and to face the consequence that the choice may bring. Obedience is rewarded with paradise and sin death. That was how the old order came about.

But God loves his creations so much that despite the first covenant being broken, he worked out a plan to reinstate his original gift to mankind. The working of the plan (of salvation) ended at the point of Jesus death on the cross (the new covenant).

Now, man are still given free will, the consequence of sin is still the same, but by the grace of Jesus, anyone who sins will have chances to be saved to have eternal life (through believing and repentance), unlike in the first covenant. This is commonly known as the salvation.

Of course the chosen people enjoyed certain privileges being chosen by God through which His plan was to be accomplised.

Having understood briefly the background of things, we can now go back to the episode mentioned in Numbers, and you would see how it falls in place.

The question is: is it necessary now to have Numbers revisited? Mohammad deemed it necessary obviously, but Jesus certainly does not. Otherwise his death would be in vain. And God, who is truth, would not go back on His word!

I think that’s a simple summary of our problem with Mohammad.

 

[R_not]

So. Why was it ok then for Israelites but not ok for Muslims? It’s the same God giving the orders.

thanks, you just admitted that muslims do indeed have a goal of killing and doing whatever they want to infidels.

I am not saying it is ok for Moses and the Israelites of eons ago - do you understand the past? The Israelites are not doing the same now - only in retaliation after muslims lob bombs into their lands daily do they retaliate and they don’t even retaliate after each day of bombing. While the muslims carry on their slaughter of not only the israelites - but buddhists (tell me what a buddhist monk ever did you you muslim males?!), Hindus, christians and anyone else not a muslim. The Israelites, or Jews, were even giving the ones bombing them in Gaza - water, electricity and gas - all the while the muslims keep trying to kill them and intimidate them.

You never answered my question. Why do you lurk on a website so obviosly not of your religion? To ensure that everyone stays ignorant or to confuse and deceive?! I would say you do certainly do that while also admitting that you muslims do indeed have a goal of murder and chaos.

Thanks, finally a muslim admitting what they are all about.

 

[ralphinal]

Hamba and Planten,

Thanks for the information. Catholics understand that there are different degrees of sin. Venial sin, which are bad enough, and mortal sins. Mortal sins, because of their nature, do serious harm between God and the sinner. One mortal sin will send you to hell if you do not repent of it before you die. Venial sins, in and of themselves, will not. We see hell as permanent, based on the Bible.

According to Islam, if a man commits any number of evil acts, at some point he will be released from hell and enter paradise? That is the part that is not fair. A man can live his life as if there is no God and still at some point get into paradise. Am I missing something?

By the way, Planten, I did not think that you were making anything up. I just did not know if this beleif depended on the Sect of Islam. I do not know if you and Hamba are the same branch or not.

 

[R_not]

I can’t even believe it. Killing just to kill because some knothead a long time ago said to kill because that is what he did. This is why no questioning islam and why jihadists ALWAYS use the koran as their justification for their chaos and killing. And now the followers of this guy continue their killing. And we have seen those muslim ‘charities’ are just set up to support jihadists by the ones who are not actively killing, but deceiving us as to what their goals are. I find that disgusting and why I find the koran offensive and a book that should be banned.

Too bad our own ‘scholars’ don’t read these blogs because if they did they might start putting one and one together and stop their appeasement of muslims. and stop calling jihadists - islamics. They are muslims. And to start questioning those masses of ‘moderates’ who only practice deception and only worry about their image instead of stopping the jihadists. We are the only ones who want a change in islam - there is not effort by the masses of ‘moderates’ to do anything. Instead, they dance and ulalate when their ‘martyrs’ die blowing others up.

No more mosques should be built and no more of a recognition of islam as a ‘religion’ but indeed it is a political movement meant to either do one of three things, 1. kill infidels, 2. convert infidels to islam (gag), 3. subjugate them (dhimmi) in their own lands. this has been why no peace has come over all the attempts at peace with the ME muslims - or why Southeast Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe are rife with strife. And the buildup of muslims here, in europe and Australia - they are looking to do the same here after our own let them because they think it is cool to appease muslims. All the masses of ‘moderates’ do is claim that they are the victims, or whine that their image is tarnished when we figure what they are all about.

there is no trying to attain a higher goal for the human in islam, only statement after statement of what carnal lusts they should be afforded to them - here on earth and in their idea of heaven.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

thanks, you just admitted that muslims do indeed have a goal of killing and doing whatever they want to infidels.

I am not saying it is ok for Moses and the Israelites of eons ago - do you understand the past? The Israelites are not doing the same now - only in retaliation after muslims lob bombs into their lands daily do they retaliate and they don’t even retaliate after each day of bombing. While the muslims carry on their slaughter of not only the israelites - but buddhists (tell me what a buddhist monk ever did you you muslim males?!), Hindus, christians and anyone else not a muslim. The Israelites, or Jews, were even giving the ones bombing them in Gaza - water, electricity and gas - all the while the muslims keep trying to kill them and intimidate them.

You never answered my question. Why do you lurk on a website so obviosly not of your religion? To ensure that everyone stays ignorant or to confuse and deceive?! I would say you do certainly do that while also admitting that you muslims do indeed have a goal of murder and chaos.

Thanks, finally a muslim admitting what they are all about.

Mohammed was allowed to initiate Islam so that it would grow, because that was God’s plan. Same as Israel slaughtering its way into the Promised Land. There is no need for it now. But it was allowed by God for Isaac and Ishmael at first.

Also Zionists – not necessarily Israelites, and many of them from Communist nations and atheist, never mind rejecting Jesus – were the first to carry out terrorist attacks on Muslims and British forces in Palestine. Britain went back home, Muslims endured the new invasion and have been reacting ever since.

Israel shouldn’t be there, only Messiah is supposed to form the new Israel. Even some Jews feel that way. So there will always be trouble for that counterfeit State.

And we think such Christians are who support that Israel which doesn’t like Jesus are traitors to Jesus and he will punish you as antichrists on his return.

So not all of us feel we should be doing anything about it, we’ll wait for Jesus and maybe be martyred, but the extremists will keep attacking because that’s God’s plan for punishing those unfaithful to Him until destruction on all sides is almost complete.

That’s all in prophecy, so it should be expected.

 

[R_not]

Hamba and Planten,

According to Islam, if a man commits any number of evil acts, at some point he will be released from hell and enter paradise? That is the part that is not fair. A man can live his life as if there is no God and still at some point get into paradise. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. Anything is ok if it is done to the infidel - murder, torture, rape, slavery, etc. just as long as they don’t ‘shirk’.

hotair.com/archives/2007/09/30/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-6-%e2%80%9ccattle%e2%80%9d-verses-1-83/

(scroll down to read the part about shirk vs other atrocities they commit.

A muderer can kill anyone - even in their own family - if they say it was an ‘honor killing’, or the person tried to leave islam, or spoke bad about allah, islam or mohammed.

The idea of ‘sin’ is like night and day if you compare Christianity vs islam.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Yes, you are missing something. Anything is ok if it is done to the infidel - murder, torture, rape, slavery, etc. just as long as they don’t ‘shirk’.

hotair.com/archives/2007/09/30/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-6-%e2%80%9ccattle%e2%80%9d-verses-1-83/

(scroll down to read the part about shirk vs other atrocities they commit.

A muderer can kill anyone - even in their own family - if they say it was an ‘honor killing’, or the person tried to leave islam, or spoke bad about allah, islam or mohammed.

The idea of ‘sin’ is like night and day if you compare Christianity vs islam.

You should quote Quran and let’s discuss what it says if you are going to compare the real teachings, unless you just want to sling whatever pile of mud you find lying around on the Internet. I don’t think the NT tells Christians to support a devoutly antichrist nation, or all the other rotten things Christians have done, especially the sex perversions in the RCC.

So maybe we should go to the texts.

 

[ralphinal]

Yes, you are missing something. Anything is ok if it is done to the infidel - murder, torture, rape, slavery, etc. just as long as they don’t ‘shirk’.

hotair.com/archives/2007/09/30/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-6-%e2%80%9ccattle%e2%80%9d-verses-1-83/

(scroll down to read the part about shirk vs other atrocities they commit.

A muderer can kill anyone - even in their own family - if they say it was an ‘honor killing’, or the person tried to leave islam, or spoke bad about allah, islam or mohammed.

The idea of ‘sin’ is like night and day if you compare Christianity vs islam.

R_not,

I appriciate your posts. I admire the fact that you have put the time into studying Islam. I am also greatful that you are willing to take a stand for your beliefs. I must, however, respectfully ask you to please be more cordial to our guests. We are trying to study a point of theology here, not the political implications of Islam or the ramifications of the faith and its spread. That might come at a later date. We have, over the last few months discussed many of the points that you are bringing up.

Now, please do not say that I am conspiring with them or that I am ignoring the truth and one day it will be too late. I am ignoring nothing. I am, however, a Christian, and I will not pre-judge anyone. Nor will I be caught unaware by anyone. I trust everyone but not completely. The Muslim posters, as frustraited as I get with them (and they with me) have yet to spew half of the venom that some Catholic and Protestant posters have put up on this board.

 

[hamba2han]

Thanks for the information. Catholics understand that there are different degrees of sin. Venial sin, which are bad enough, and mortal sins. Mortal sins, because of their nature, do serious harm between God and the sinner. One mortal sin will send you to hell if you do not repent of it before you die. Venial sins, in and of themselves, will not. We see hell as permanent, based on the Bible.

According to Islam, if a man commits any number of evil acts, at some point he will be released from hell and enter paradise? That is the part that is not fair. A man can live his life as if there is no God and still at some point get into paradise. Am I missing something?

There are 7 different levels and varying degrees of severity for the punishment in Hell and it’s denizens, although they may spend different periods of time in the Hell-fire, will think like they have spent all of eternity in it.

Abu Talib, the uncle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), is indeed suffering the mildest form of punishment in Hell.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: “The mildest punishment to be inflicted upon a person in Hell is that he will be made to wear a pair of sandals made of fire which will be so hot that they will make his brain boil like things boil on a stove. He will imagine that no one is undergoing a punishment more severe although his punishment, in reality, will be the mildest in Hell.” … [Bukhari, Muslim]

Allah Almighty created Heaven with 500 levels. The highest level will have the Prophets, the Martyrs and the most righteous, loving and pious believers the world ever had. The lowest level of Paradise will be for those who barely made it. The portion each person will have in the lowest level will be five times bigger than the size of the planet earth.

The following Hadith (Saying of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him) is further evidence that Paradise has multiple levels in it:

Abdullah b. Mas’ud reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "I know the last of the inhabitants of Fire to be taken out therefrom, and the last of the inhabitants of Paradise to enter it. A man will come out of the Fire crawling. Then Allah, the Blessed and Exalted will say to him: Go and enter Paradise. So he would come to it and it would appear to him as if it were full. He would go back and say: O my Lord! I found it full. Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, would say to him: Go and enter Paradise. He would come and perceive as if it were full. He would return and say: O my Lord! I found it full. Allah would say to him: Go and enter Paradise, for there is for you the like of the world and ten times like it, or for you is ten times the like of this world.
He (the narrator) said. “He (that man) would say: Art Thou making a fun of me? or Art Thou laughing at me. though Thou art the King?
He (the narrator) said: I saw the Messenger of Allah laugh till his front teeth were visible. And it was said: That would be the lowest rank among the inhabitants of Paradise.” … (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Faith (Kitab Al-Iman), Book 001, Number 0359)

Do you still think then that a “temporary” stay in Hell is unfair to those who have been granted a place in Paradise?

 

[R_not]

islam is political. how can you be cordial when the teachings of islam is to deceive?

The comparison of Moses, who was enslaved and his people were slaves while what they did is not a directive to us to follow vs mohammed who enslaved others, and his followers use his actions as a reason to use for murdering and carrying on chaos to this day is inane.

I call it as I see it. I will leave this thread - but I will not respect you for thinking that tiptoeing around the deceivers is cool. Too many Catholics appease muslims and are afraid to say it like it should be said to them. Why? They have no problem NOT talking any theology, but using the Bible to say we carry out the same atrocities when it isn’t true - and you let that go with no thought behind it. We take bad men/women and give them a trial - they dance and ulalate over what their murderers do.

good bye - you do just what so many others do. Read the history of so many countries (Lebanon, eastern Europe, southeast Asia, Africa, etc) and people who act like you do and now they are mostly muslim after the ‘peaceful’ ones who practice taqiyya/kithman, moved in and then the decades of violence and chaos that followed while so many appeased them thinking it would stop the violence. When you decide to crack open a koran maybe you will find that those ‘radicals’ are just muslims who follow the koran, and so are those so called ‘moderates’.

 

[planten]

Reuben J:

The love of God necessitates the gift of free will (which Muslims believe too). Thus it was man’s choice whether to obey or to sin and to face the consequence that the choice may bring. Obedience is rewarded with paradise and sin death. That was how the old order came about.

Obedience is rewarded with paradise and sin is rewarded with hell. Not with death. If it is not a symbolic language then the above words of R J about death are wrong.
Death is for every body, good or bad, obedient or disobedient. Every one will die. Death is not only for the sinners. It is for all people, good or bad people. Do the obedient people not die? They all do.

 

[viper78912]

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have both prayed in a mosque. Pope Benedict XVI has also kissed the Holy Quran.
The Evening Star is Venus. The Morning Star is Venus.
One evening, St. Francis of Assisi was lying on a grassy meadow, admiring the stars.
He was asked,’ Bro. Francis, who does Venus remind you of?’
He replied, ‘Lucifer! God is so good and Loving and Merciful, that one day, He Will Forgive Lucifer and take him back to Heaven!’