Saint Paul and Islam

[holdencaulfield]

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas.

You realize that most of the Apocrypha was written for the sole purpose of destroying Christianity. Anyone can just make something up and write it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You realize that most of the Apocrypha was written for the sole purpose of destroying Christianity. Anyone can just make something up and write it.

My same opinion of Hadith, subsequent imams who wanted to one-up Mohammed and gain their own followings.

 

[holdencaulfield]

My same opinion of Hadith, subsequent imams who wanted to one-up Mohammed and gain their own followings.

I don’t know anything of the Hadith, however I agree with you in that, yes many people will make things up in order to denounce the claims of others.

 

[Lapell]

Were Muhammad’s wars in self defense?
Vickie

I am sure that, at least at first, the answer is yes. There might have been a few instances where he and the Muslim with him did retaliate against certain cities for some damage their people brought to them, death to some or their own, things like that. They might have taken Israel’s retaliation raids against Amalek or against the Philistines as a “fair” model to follow comparing to what they knew then. But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour, from which a movie was made starring Anthony Quinn. I read a good number of his novels, he used a poetic style in prose. He also wrote books on Patriarch Athenagoras and saint John Chrysostom (Golden Mouth)… I don’t see in him any reason to want to avoid the negative about Muhammed, and there are a few things… But in Moses’ times, to be fair, Muhammed might have been considered a righteous man. If he was unaware of any Catholic Church faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, then I don’t see that we should condemn him himself. He relied on the angel for the messages he proclaimed and trusted them to come from the true Allah (Christian Arabs, like I said earlier, used to call God: Allah… even before Muhammed ever started mentionning Him!) How could he tell an authentic angel of God from angels rebellious to God? I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

 

[Lapell]

It’s just a gimmick. Atheists say the same things about bloodthirsty, gay hating, proselytizing Crusader Christians. But if you want to buddy with atheists instead of fellow believers in God go ahead.

Not every atheist seeks to destroy religion, even though they are many.

 

[Lapell]

Why do you keep saying that. I never denied any of that about some Muslims. The beauty is I can say I’m anything because I’m really no religion, I said the other day all of them can go to hell.

But you remain a Catholic and therefore bear the sins of the Church, while I don’t have to bear the sins of any religion.

You might not bear the sins of any religion, but you do bear the sins of humanity, which also are many! Every man, every person is a sinner… with the exception of the blessed Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, and Jesus Himself, although in His case, He is a divine person, not a human person, even though He is true God and true man. This has been defined as solid doctrine of the Catholic faith long ago. He bore our humanity along with, including the sins of the world, even though He Himself was absolutely sinless. Through His death, He freed us from death; through His resurrection, He brought us back to life, those of us who believe in Him or would have if we were outside the Catholic Church and would have come to a knowledge that the Catholic Church is the one Church Jesus established on earth… That’s our faith, I am not ashamed of it.

 

[Lapell]

You might not bear the sins of any religion, but you do bear the sins of humanity, which also are many! Every man, every person is a sinner…

And you know, Booklover, that in a way we do co-bear the sins of the world, along with Christ of course, and you know He has bourne the greatest share, while we are given to bear only what we are able to, provided we bear it ALONG WITH Him!
What we can’t bear we give it to Him. Our own sins we unload ourselves on Him when we confess them to a priest, so that we can be free to resume our walk in faith following Jesus’ steps. That’s the beauty of it. Thanks be to God!

 

[Lapell]

And you know, Booklover, that in a way we do co-bear the sins of the world, along with Christ of course, and you know He has bourne the greatest share, while we are given to bear only what we are able to, provided we bear it ALONG WITH Him!
What we can’t bear we give it to Him. Our own sins we unload ourselves on Him when we confess them to a priest, so that we can be free to resume our walk in faith following Jesus’ steps. That’s the beauty of it. Thanks be to God!

Saint Paul and the Apostles before and after him certainly experienced this with great joy. Twas humbling, but twas for the better.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

You might not bear the sins of any religion, but you do bear the sins of humanity, which also are many!

I bear my own sins I haven’t repented of, for sure. Right at the moment I’m pretty much repented for sins I know about.

I thought Jesus bears the sins of humanity.

He is a divine person, not a human person, even though He is true God and true man.

Well of course he is human too if he is true man…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Not every atheist seeks to destroy religion, even though they are many.

So they say.

 

[Booklover]

I am sure that, at least at first, the answer is yes. There might have been a few instances where he and the Muslim with him did retaliate against certain cities for some damage their people brought to them, death to some or their own, things like that. They might have taken Israel’s retaliation raids against Amalek or against the Philistines as a “fair” model to follow comparing to what they knew then. But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour, from which a movie was made starring Anthony Quinn. I read a good number of his novels, he used a poetic style in prose. He also wrote books on Patriarch Athenagoras and saint John Chrysostom (Golden Mouth)… I don’t see in him any reason to want to avoid the negative about Muhammed, and there are a few things… But in Moses’ times, to be fair, Muhammed might have been considered a righteous man. If he was unaware of any Catholic Church faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, then I don’t see that we should condemn him himself. He relied on the angel for the messages he proclaimed and trusted them to come from the true Allah (Christian Arabs, like I said earlier, used to call God: Allah… even before Muhammed ever started mentionning Him!) How could he tell an authentic angel of God from angels rebellious to God? I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

Muhammad is considered by Muslims to be “the best of creation” and “a mercy to all mankind”. If he’s the best of creation, I’d hate to see the worst! How can a man who had so many people slaughtered be “a mercy to all mankind”???

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I am sure that, at least at first, the answer is yes. There might have been a few instances where he and the Muslim with him did retaliate against certain cities for some damage their people brought to them, death to some or their own, things like that. They might have taken Israel’s retaliation raids against Amalek or against the Philistines as a “fair” model to follow comparing to what they knew then. But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour, from which a movie was made starring Anthony Quinn. I read a good number of his novels, he used a poetic style in prose. He also wrote books on Patriarch Athenagoras and saint John Chrysostom (Golden Mouth)… I don’t see in him any reason to want to avoid the negative about Muhammed, and there are a few things… But in Moses’ times, to be fair, Muhammed might have been considered a righteous man.

This smacks of moral relativism.

If he was unaware of any Catholic Church faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, then I don’t see that we should condemn him himself. He relied on the angel for the messages he proclaimed and trusted them to come from the true Allah (Christian Arabs, like I said earlier, used to call God: Allah… even before Muhammed ever started mentionning Him!) How could he tell an authentic angel of God from angels rebellious to God? I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

You stated above that Muhammad had never instigated anything. He had people assassinated simply for writing satyrical poems about him.

Muhammad’s Dead Poets Society

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

So I’m not sure I’m the guy to be trying to put in a disadvantageous position because you’ll lose out of the argument in the end.

Oh well, what the heck, as I read in an Agatha Christie book once “People who go around looking for trouble usually find it”

Vickie

 

[Reuben_J]

But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour, from which a movie was made starring Anthony Quinn. I read a good number of his novels, he used a poetic style in prose. He also wrote books on Patriarch Athenagoras and saint John Chrysostom (Golden Mouth)… I don’t see in him any reason to want to avoid the negative about Muhammed, and there are a few things…

Well, at least you read. I suggest you move away from fiction to widen your scope. … When I started here my view on Mohammad was quite mild and respectful, seeing that he was a founder of a major religion. I did not have much information about him though and that was when I did a little search on my own. One of that include a couple of forays into Muslim websites in dialogues.

If he was unaware of any Catholic Church faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, then I don’t see that we should condemn him himself. He relied on the angel for the messages he proclaimed and trusted them to come from the true Allah (Christian Arabs, like I said earlier, used to call God: Allah… even before Muhammed ever started mentionning Him!) How could he tell an authentic angel of God from angels rebellious to God?

You are burying your face in the sand, bro. Here we are talking about a man who started a religion with more than a billion followers today. And you still grapple with whether he couldn’t figure out it was an angel or the devil. And that he was unaware of the Catholic teaching while quite freely commenting on Christians and their belief.

Please wake up! I know there is the need for diplomacy but please wake up for the truth of what he was.

I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

This is nonsense and you know it. Muslims do not kill Catholics becuase of Catholics rudeness. You better believe this now. They kill because of what the Quran exhorts them to.

A true Holy Scripture will not allow you to kill. And that’s it. BTW, where do you live? Maybe you have not been at the recieving end of those who live by the Quran and by the examples of Mohammad. But many Christians can testify to their cruelty and hatred and suffer at their hands.

 

[Reuben_J]

a) because of Muhammad’s lack of moral and ethical fortitude and b) because of the absurdities in the Quran.
a) Muhammad lived a less than holy life. His lust for sex, his affairs with his maids and slave girls, his pedophilic relationship at age 54 with Aisha, a 9-year-old child, his killing sprees, his massacre and the genocide of the Jews, his slave making and trading, his assassination of his opponents, his raids and lootings of the merchant caravans and unarmed villagers, his burning of trees, his destroying the water wells, his cursing and invoking evil on his enemies, his revenge on his captured prisoners of war, his torturing of his captives to for greed and his hallucinations such as believing of having sex with his wives when he actually did not, disqualify him as a sane person let alone a messenger of God. b) An unbiased study of the Quran shows that far from being a “miracle”, that book is a hoax. The Quran is replete with scientific heresies, historic blunders, mathematical mistakes, logical absurdities, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. Could possibly the author of this Universe be as ignorant as it appears to be in the Quran? Ali Sina, founder of FFI

Vickie

I have a word for a man such as this! I will not repeat it here lest it may offend the sensitivity of good people like our bro Lapell. But I hope he will read this and decide for himself who the real Mohammad was.

 

[planten]

Reuben J: This is nonsense and you know it. Muslims do not kill Catholics becuase of Catholics rudeness. You better believe this now. They kill because of what the Quran exhorts them to.

The Quran does not tell the Muslims to kill any one, Not at all to kill any catholic. Show me where the quran tells to kill any Catholic.? It is such wrong reports that you are spreading against Islam which will help to spread the message of Islam. When people will read the Quran, they will come to know your wrong reports. Then they will think about it all the more.

Nobody likes to buy a second grade item. No body loves a lie. the Muslims are not to fight any one unless he fights and kills the Muslims. That is the true and correct education. But the church hasn’t even got to that much good teaching.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Quran does not tell the Muslims to kill any one, Not at all to kill any catholic. Show me where the quran tells to kill any Catholic.? It is such wrong reports that you are spreading against Islam which will help to spread the message of Islam. When people will read the Quran, they will come to know your wrong reports. Then they will think about it all the more.

Nobody likes to buy a second grade item. No body loves a lie. the Muslims are not to fight any one unless he fights and kills the Muslims. That is the true and correct education. But the church hasn’t even got to that much good teaching.

I don’t have to tell you this. But ask Osama Ben Laden for starter. There are many more Imams in UK who be just happy to tell you too.

You tell them. They say it, not me. I just know what they say and what they do for they leave their trails all over the place.

If you’re not from UK, you are not short of Muslims who will tell you in the ME, Pakistan, India and Afghanistan, and Southeast Asia.

I can show you of the innocent Christians who become victims in the name of Islam. But actually I don’t have to for you surely have heard of them yourself. If you don’t you must be living in another planet.

 

[MH84]

The Quran does not tell the Muslims to kill any one, Not at all to kill any catholic. Show me where the quran tells to kill any Catholic.? It is such wrong reports that you are spreading against Islam which will help to spread the message of Islam. When people will read the Quran, they will come to know your wrong reports. Then they will think about it all the more.

Nobody likes to buy a second grade item. No body loves a lie. the Muslims are not to fight any one unless he fights and kills the Muslims. That is the true and correct education. But the church hasn’t even got to that much good teaching.

[9.1] (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Apostle towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.
[9.2] So go about in the land for four months and know that you cannot weaken Allah and that Allah will bring disgrace to the unbelievers.
[9.3] And an announcement from Allah and His Apostle to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His Apostle are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve.
[9.4] Except those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement, then they have not failed you in anything and have not backed up any one against you, so fulfill their agreement to the end of their term; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.5]** So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.**[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=DIV0&byte=282392

How could this message be sent by God after Jesus 600 yrs before preached such a different message?

 

[planten]

Well, at least you read. I suggest you move away from fiction to widen your scope. … When I started here my view on Mohammad was quite mild and respectful, seeing that he was a founder of a major religion. I did not have much information about him though and that was when I did a little search on my own. One of that include a couple of forays into Muslim websites in dialogues.

You are burying your face in the sand, bro. Here we are talking about a man who started a religion with more than a billion followers today. And you still grapple with whether he couldn’t figure out it was an angel or the devil. And that he was unaware of the Catholic teaching while quite freely commenting on Christians and their belief.
Please wake up! I know there is the need for diplomacy but please wake up for the truth of what he was.

This is nonsense and you know it. Muslims do not kill Catholics becuase of Catholics rudeness. You better believe this now. They kill because of what the Quran exhorts them to.

A true Holy Scripture will not allow you to kill. And that’s it. BTW, where do you live? Maybe you have not been at the recieving end of those who live by the Quran and by the examples of Mohammad. But many Christians can testify to their cruelty and hatred and suffer at their hands.

Muslims do not kill Catholics unless the Catholics kill the Muslims. are you sure that there are no catholics involved in killing in the governments and military?

I have colored your post in red where I differ with your ideas. Please see the last line in red. It seems that you have not read the bible OT and the amount of killing there. Or, you think bible OT is not a true holy scripture?? How much of that is unholy?

 

[rikkk1958]

The Old Testament killings was part of God’s plan to show His power and glory. The sacrifices made was in God/s hand. This is history already because Jesus fulfilled them all so that peace on earth and love for all mankind shall begin. That is why Muhammed’s story is somewhat questionable because in the first place, he already have heard the story of the Jews and Christians. I have tried very much to know Islam by reading the most reliable source but still not convinced by Muhammed. The people around him at his time seemed to taint his writings that most of them were abrogated due to its extremism and adaptability Although some of his teachings are good especially about God but it does not collaborate with other parts of his messages. This is why I can only say that Islam with how Muhammed wanted to spread the glory of God can only be more logical to explain that he wanted to imitate the story of the Holy Bible but futily disappointed when he was ignored in the beginning and tried by force to make his own religion even to the extent of spreading a story that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him whic anybody could say the same thing without a witness.