Saint Paul and Islam

[planten]

The Old Testament killings was part of God’s plan to show His power and glory. The sacrifices made was in God/s hand. This is history already because Jesus fulfilled them all so that peace on earth and love for all mankind shall begin. That is why Muhammed’s story is somewhat questionable because in the first place, he already have heard the story of the Jews and Christians. I have tried very much to know Islam by reading the most reliable source but still not convinced by Muhammed. The people around him at his time seemed to taint his writings that most of them were abrogated due to its extremism and adaptability Although some of his teachings are good especially about God but it does not collaborate with other parts of his messages. This is why I can only say that Islam with how Muhammed wanted to spread the glory of God can only be more logical to explain that he wanted to imitate the story of the Holy Bible but futily disappointed when he was ignored in the beginning and tried by force to make his own religion even to the extent of spreading a story that the Angel Gabriel appeared to him whic anybody could say the same thing without a witness.

Thanks for posting. I am not blaming the killing mentioned in the bible OT. I have no problem with the writings in bible OT. I only wanted to point out the sentence used to blame Muhammad about killing not being any sacred script would let down the good words of bible OT.

The prophet Muhammad was not acting on the behaviour of any one. He was guided all the time by the revelation that he was receiving from God. There is no problem about the Arch Angel Gabriel too. The angels have been bringing news/ messages to all prophets before muhammad. Angel appeared to Abraham. Angel appeared to Joseph the Carpenter. There was no witness there too. But it is believed by all the christians as true.

It is being admitted by all qualified people that Muhammad was the greatest successful prophet of God. That is true. If any one says that Muhammad did not have any revelation then it means that he was a liar. Which is not true and not proved. Just think of any liar. How can a liar succeed. Why will the people (his followers) give their life for him??

For us all the prophets are truthful and honest and sinless. But christians have narrow minded outlook on many matters. They think that only Jesus is sinless. That is not true. Moses was the great prophet who led his people to successful victory against a tyrant king (Pharoah of Egypt). Jesus was just a humble servant and follower of Moses a.s. But still the people did not accept him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The Old Testament killings was part of God’s plan to show His power and glory. The sacrifices made was in God/s hand. This is history already because Jesus fulfilled them all so that peace on earth and love for all mankind shall begin.

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Mohammed is fulfilling God’s promise for Ishmael. You can’t play picky choosy to say one promise for Isaac is good and valid but the one for Ishmael is garbage. Both are valid and fulfilled, violence or not.

Genesis 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes (parallel to tribes of Judaism, disciples of Christianity) shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Genesis 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

It’s supposed to be this way.

 

[Valke2]

It is being admitted by all qualified people that Muhammad was the greatest successful prophet of God. That is true. If any one says that Muhammad did not have any revelation then it means that he was a liar. Which is not true and not proved. Just think of any liar. How can a liar succeed. Why will the people (his followers) give their life for him??

Jim Jones
David Koresh
Charles Manson
Adolf Hitler
Mao Tse Tung
George Bush
Couple of Jewish Messiah wannabe’s who’s names I can’t recall but one converted to Islam and caused much destruction in the Jewish communty.
Couple of bad Popes.
Couople of Bad Kings
Couple of Bad Ceasers

I’m sure many could add to the list of individuals who lied and had people die for them.

I forgot to add Jacob, who lied to his father (his blind father).

 

[rikkk1958]

When Planten and Faith of Abraham is peaceful enough to argue in a Catholic Forum I just wish that they will also spend more considerable time with their fellow muslim brothers who are right now are disoriented with the teachings of the Quran. Yes, they are obeying Muhammed and look at what is happening to them.
Based on your responses, I can not argue enough because they are simply defensive responses. It is sad to know the truth of millions of the followers who are followers of Muhammed nowadays but it is also true enough that there are many kinds of people in this world, the fools who obeys without much knowledge of the truth, and those who are wise that follows the real truth. We all know that Matthew 10:34 are very much in the minds of non-christians and atheist alike but these passage is a wonderfull one considering how true the Word of Jesus would someday comes. The word of Jesus about the sword and division are simply a prophesy about the consequences and quarrels of different people against His teachings. Jesus warns that His Words and those who spread the good news He wanted to proclaim all over the world will be subjected to opposition by many who do not want to follow the truth, and this includes the muslims.
It is unquestionable that you have read the Old Testament about Ishmael and his mother Hagar and also about the promise of God to her but you also have to know about the promise God gave to Abraham about Isaac which is more promising than Ishmael. Obviously, this story is the casue of animosity between Jews and Arabs, but we Christians are obliged to follow the truth where Jesus Christ had been prophesied since the creation of this world.
Read the Bible and you will be able to connect the dot from the creation until the death of Jesus.
I meantioned about the Angel Gabriel because of an obvious reason how different people would use this kind of excuse to get symphaty from their followers especially when they have charisma. Look what happened to Joe Smith of the Mormons, and other founders of other religions, like Jehovahs, Seventh Day, etc. Unlike Jesus, not only he had witnesses, He also showed them miracles beyond human capabilities.
Planten and Faith of Abraham, if you want salvation, read wisely about Jesus Christ.

 

[planten]

I have a word for a man such as this! I will not repeat it here lest it may offend the sensitivity of good people like our bro Lapell. But I hope he will read this and decide for himself who the real Mohammad was.

Muhammad was a man. Jesus was probably not a man. The church teachings and we see the unmarried mothers and unmarried fathers in the church system. But still the catholics are accusing Muhammad by different words. He was a happy married man, not like Jesus.
Muhammad could be a role model for the men. Jesus cannot be a role model. Can we say that he was inhuman.? How can I describe some one who was not really a man at all. what single word could be used to describe such a person? Because inhuman is not an honorable word.

But what to say about the unmarried fathers. And they cannot marry officially. So what they do?? As long as you falsely blame Muhammad, people will be bound to unfold the bad life of the church people. The christians are those people (according to Quran) who had the real teachings ( care of Jesus). But they lost it all after getting it.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

When Planten and Faith of Abraham is peaceful enough to argue in a Catholic Forum I just wish that they will also spend more considerable time with their fellow muslim brothers who are right now are disoriented with the teachings of the Quran.

I’m all over the internet.

 

[Booklover]

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

This quote is brought up ad nauseam! Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? This refers to the divisions that would happen between those who accepted Jesus’ message and those who rejected it. It has nothing to do with killing anyone! Jesus never killed anyone or advocated murder unlike Muhammad who had people simply killed for writing satyrical poems about him. I bet those people who wrote those poems, which cost them their life saw the real man behind the lies he concocted.

You’re distorting what the Bible really says and giving it the Muslim interpretation.

Vickie

 

[planten]

This quote is brought up ad nauseam! Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? This refers to the divisions that would happen between those who accepted Jesus’ message and those who rejected it. It has nothing to do with killing anyone! Jesus never killed anyone or advocated murder unlike Muhammad who had people simply killed for writing satyrical poems about him. I bet those people who wrote those poems, which cost them their life saw the real man behind the lies he concocted.

You’re distorting what the Bible really says and giving it the Muslim interpretation.

Vickie

Yes, it may be the Muslim or any body’s interpretation. The words are there in the bible and you cannot twist the meanings too. Jesus says that he had not come to make peace in the world but he had come to bring sword.

Please also read in the bible that Jesus had ordered his men to buy swords even by selling their clothes. So the peaceful message of Jesus is very clear. That message is against peace and carries swords.

It is a different story that he was caught too quickly. We Muslims understand the message of Jesus with the swords and without the swords. whatever he said and did was alright. Only the christians are mistaken. And you are also trying to avoid the issue by distorting the meanings of the actual words of the bible.

Why don’t you admit that the message / intention of Jesus was not peace. Then leave it at that. Thanks. Do not give a reverse meaning to the lines of the bible. You cannot be an advocate and teach something which Jesus did not say. Perhaps we Muslims love JESUS more than you people. Thanks again.

 

[Lapell]

I am sure that, at least at first, the answer is yes. There might have been a few instances where he and the Muslim with him did retaliate against certain cities for some damage their people brought to them, death to some or their own, things like that. They might have taken Israel’s retaliation raids against Amalek or against the Philistines as a “fair” model to follow comparing to what they knew then. But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour …]

If you read me correctly, Booklover, you would have seen that I didn’t say that he didn’t instigated anything, but that I DIDN’T REMEMBER THAT HE DID. That’s a bit different! Whether the people who wrote the hadiths are reliable or not, I wouldn’t know who to trust or not for telling that this author is, or isn’t, reliable.
Do you have a sure way to tell? My question is honest, believe me!

 

[Lapell]

Well, at least you read. I suggest you move away from fiction to widen your scope. …

Well, when Gheorghiu wrote “La vie de Mahomet”, it was NOT a work of fiction! Some writers do write fiction AND non-fiction, you know…

 

[Lapell]

You are burying your face in the sand, bro. Here we are talking about a man who started a religion with more than a billion followers today. And you still grapple with whether he couldn’t figure out it was an angel or the devil. And that he was unaware of the Catholic teaching while quite freely commenting on Christians and their belief.
Please wake up! I know there is the need for diplomacy but please wake up for the truth of what he was.

Haven’t you heard about false private revelations, brother? Moreover, I thought that the kind of Christians he happened to meet were not in communion with Rome and the Magisterium of the Church. In the case of Muhammed, it seems to me quite possible. What his followers of later years who had opportunities to meet Catholics in full communion with Rome did then was their personal choice (unless they were cases of forced conversions, of course)…

 

[Lapell]

Yes, it may be the Muslim or any body’s interpretation. The words are there in the bible and you cannot twist the meanings too. Jesus says that he had not come to make peace in the world but he had come to bring sword.

Please also read in the bible that Jesus had ordered his men to buy swords even by selling their clothes. So the peaceful message of Jesus is very clear. That message is against peace and carries swords.

It is a different story that he was caught too quickly. We Muslims understand the message of Jesus with the swords and without the swords. whatever he said and did was alright. Only the christians are mistaken. And you are also trying to avoid the issue by distorting the meanings of the actual words of the bible.

Why don’t you admit that the message / intention of Jesus was not peace. Then leave it at that. Thanks. Do not give a reverse meaning to the lines of the bible. You cannot be an advocate and teach something which Jesus did not say. Perhaps we Muslims love JESUS more than you people. Thanks again.

You seem to think that your interpretation of the New Testament is infallible. Did Jesus promise you that he would give the keys to the Kingdom of God? Aren’t you concerned about false testimony as a Muslim?

 

[Lapell]

I have a word for a man such as this! I will not repeat it here lest it may offend the sensitivity of good people like our bro Lapell.

On another topic in a newspaper, I was once accused of having a “holier-than-thou stance”. That didn’t keep me from continuing to write to that paper. I was more concerned that calumnies and insults (that includes the accusation of hypocrisy, often used a bit too easily from the Muslim side. On the Christian Catholic side, it seems to be more of a matter of replying to an offense, really!) take the precedence over truth seeking and respectful argumentation, that’s all.

 

[Lapell]

I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

Well, bad example from Catholics have existed throughout the history of Christianity. It doesn’t make the rest of Catholics bad Catholics, this I know!! Complaints against so much bad example come various quarters, you know, and unfortunately not all of those were false, far from it. Marcus Grodi once said that among the obstacles against converting to Catholicism is the bad example given by Catholics. He didn’t say: by all Catholics. Just “by Catholics”. Like somebody pointed out, you find bad example in all religions, and I would add: in agnosticism and atheism too!

 

[Lapell]

This quote is brought up ad nauseam! Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? This refers to the divisions that would happen between those who accepted Jesus’ message and those who rejected it. It has nothing to do with killing anyone! Jesus never killed anyone or advocated murder unlike Muhammad who had people simply killed for writing satyrical poems about him. I bet those people who wrote those poems, which cost them their life saw the real man behind the lies he concocted.

You’re distorting what the Bible really says and giving it the Muslim interpretation.

Vickie

And FoA also says the same thing as Hamba2han said in a previous thread called Jesus’ Call To Jihad. I agree with Booklover on this. FoA’s interpretation of those verses is not a true one!

 

[Lapell]

Yes, it may be the Muslim or any body’s interpretation. The words are there in the bible and you cannot twist the meanings too. Jesus says that he had not come to make peace in the world but he had come to bring sword.

Please also read in the bible that Jesus had ordered his men to buy swords even by selling their clothes. So the peaceful message of Jesus is very clear. That message is against peace and carries swords.

It is a different story that he was caught too quickly. We Muslims understand the message of Jesus with the swords and without the swords. whatever he said and did was alright. Only the christians are mistaken. And you are also trying to avoid the issue by distorting the meanings of the actual words of the bible.

You should not have come with this, Planten. Trying to tell the Catholic Church how to interpret the Gospel verses. You were not given the keys to the Kingdom of God, Simon Peter and his successors were, whether you like it or not! You haven’t met Catholics Arabs, it seems. There are. How come?

 

[Lapell]

Yes, it may be the Muslim or any body’s interpretation. The words are there in the bible and you cannot twist the meanings too.

You’d be surprised how very possible this can be when you take verses out of their context…

 

[Lapell]

…Although you probably are not REALLY surprised about such a possibility, or are you?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

This quote is brought up ad nauseam! Do you ever bother to read the footnotes in the Bible? This refers to the divisions that would happen between those who accepted Jesus’ message and those who rejected it. It has nothing to do with killing anyone! Jesus never killed anyone or advocated murder unlike Muhammad who had people simply killed for writing satyrical poems about him. I bet those people who wrote those poems, which cost them their life saw the real man behind the lies he concocted.

You’re distorting what the Bible really says and giving it the Muslim interpretation.

Vickie

That quote is in response to the false claim that Jesus only came to bring peace.

Jesus is going to kill a lot of people when he returns, haven’t you ever read Revelation?

 

[Lapell]

That quote is in response to the false claim that Jesus only came to bring peace.
Jesus is going to kill a lot of people when he returns, haven’t you ever read Revelation?

We-e-ell, FoA, you seem to reject the explanation Booklover gave you of that verse. This is correct, whether you like it or not: that’s the Church’s interpretation!
And you seem to forget there’s a verse where God states that He doesn’t want death to the one who sins, but that he change ways (and therefore that he sins no more) and lives! The Last Judgment will really be brought on ourselves by ourselves, in a way. If we choose to stick to sin to the end, well we’ll be one with sin and be destroyed along with it! Then, yes, the sinners too will then be destroyed, unless they chose to change and make concrete steps in that direction…