Saint Paul and Islam

[FaithofAbraham]

Well, the putting together of THOSE quotes from the Gospels, separate from their context (what came before and after, and the whole of the Gospel). You put the same verses together, Planten, Hamba2han and you. All about swords, so there must be some earthly war involved, some jihad!.. If you knew the whole of the New Testament and read it in the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God the Father and the Son, believe me, you would be more careful about how to interpret it, for false interpretations can happen and do happen! Don’t you know what any translator has to know, that a word or a phrase has its sense given by the context? This is very, very important!

Look, rikkk1958 said: This is history already because Jesus fulfilled them all so that peace on earth and love for all mankind shall begin.

So is that what Jesus said?

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

That’s all I said, Jesus never said peace and love shall begin for everyone.

I’m not incorrect at all.

 

[Lapell]

Look, rikkk1958 said: This is history already because Jesus fulfilled them all so that peace on earth and love for all mankind shall begin.
So is that what Jesus said?
Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
That’s all I said, Jesus never said peace and love shall begin for everyone.
I’m not incorrect at all.

Meaning love and peace won’t come automatically like that, yes, I agree.
I was referring to the striking fact that the 3 of you, Hamba2han (in another thread), Planten and yourself quoted the same set of 2 verses. What a coincidence, heh? Maybe you happen to have said something different from the 2 others, but still you used all the same set of verses together, and so I was wondering if you got it, the 3 of you, from some kind of Q and A book for Muslims.
It might not be the case, though the coincidence, you’ll admit, is quite striking!

 

[Lapell]

You don’t have them just because you haven’t bought one or because it’s forbidden?

Anyhow, you don’t have to buy them to read them. There are libraries…

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Meaning love and peace won’t come automatically like that, yes, I agree.
I was referring to the striking fact that the 3 of you, Hamba2han (in another thread), Planten and yourself quoted the same set of 2 verses. What a coincidence, heh? Maybe you happen to have said something different from the 2 others, but still you used all the same set of verses together, and so I was wondering if you got it, the 3 of you, from some kind of Q and A book for Muslims.
It might not be the case, though the coincidence, you’ll admit, is quite striking!

I guess. I was just responding to rikki though. Just coincidence.

 

[rikkk1958]

Is Muhammed a prophet? What did he prophesy? When Jesus said about peace it means peace because He also taught the virtue of faith, hope, and love where He said that the greatest of all is Love. When you talk of killing even for the sake of making someone a believer is an act of hate and evil doing, while to love a neighbor regardless of who he is, is a great deed and doing good deed is pleasing to God. Faith without love is nothing.

 

[planten]

You don’t have them just because you haven’t bought one or because it’s forbidden?

No. I had the complete bible which was king james version. That was in good shape, I do not have now. It was fine thin paper. The one I have now is a very old copy, KJV, with binding, large page but worn out and the pages in the beginning and end are torn away. It now starts with Genesis chapter 29 and ends with some hebrew 12.

I have no time and no need to read anything from other than Jesus. Already, that is not from Jesus but a descriptive from some narrator (not from God in the words of God). But still I love it because of my love for Jesus. There is something of truth and some message from Jesus in the four gospels. That is enough and all should be there in it.

I am not interested in the acts of any one but Jesus. The acts of disciples do not interest me. Specially if they put some doubt in the way Jesus acted. Those acts are good for you who understand it and love it. You may enjoy them. If there is some truth in the bible, even a least bit of truth, then it will show itself. It cannot remain hidden. So I have no worry just remaining to the four gospels.

Those gospels are more important than anything else in the bible. That is why they form the main part. That is also because they describe Jesus and his life time. they are placed as foremost in the bible before anything else. They come first. Also they speak for themselves. Do we need some one to explain them to us?? Not at all.

If they need some one to explain them then they are not powerful. They are helpless. They need help from some one and that will show a weakness of the gospels. If they cannot speak for themselves then they have weakness.

Please try to see the things in the right perspective of a good revealed book. The qualities that it should have. It should not unnecessarily depend on some one for its message to be understood.

 

[paarsurrey]

planten; 3311287:

I am not interested in the acts of any one but Jesus. The acts of disciples do not interest me.

Hi

It is very unfortunate that our Catholic friends don’t have the ** ScriptureProper **- the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on Jesus in the original language of Hebrew or Aramaic which Jesus and Mary spoke. They don’t have even the ActsProper- the Acts of Jesus which he performed to demonstrate what he was commanded by GodAllahYHWH.

The Acts of disciples is also not of the proper disciples of Jesus. These are Acts of those disciples of Jesus whom he did not, in my opinion, trust as those who were his trusted friends he took them along when he disappeared from Galilee alongwith his mother Mary to his journey to far off place.
This has been mentioned by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in his book “Jesus in India”:

**Evidence from Islamic books which contain
a mention of Jesus’ journey **

In Rauzat-us-Safa, a well-known book of history, on pages 130 - 135, occurs, in the Persian language, an account, which, briefly translated, is as follows.

"Jesus (on whom be peace) was named the Messiah because he was a great traveller. He wore a woollen scarf on his head, and a woollen cloak on his body. He had a stick in his hand; he used to wander from country to country and from city to city. At nightfall he would stay where he was.

He ate jungle vegetables, drank jungle water, and went on his travels on foot. His companions, in one of his travels, once bought a horse for him; he rode the horse one day, but as he could not make any provision for the feeding of the horse, he returned it. Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain, which was at a distance of several hundred miles from his home.

With him were a few of his disciples who he sent into the city to preach. In the city, however, there were current wrong and unfounded rumours about Jesus (on whom be peace) and his mother. The governor of the city, therefore, arrested the disciples and then summoned Jesus. Jesus miraculously healed some persons and exhibited other miracles.

The king of the territory of Nasibain, therefore, with all his armies and his people, became a follower of his. The legend of the ‘coming down of food’ contained in the Holy Quran belongs to the days of his travels."
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

Thanks

 

[viper78912]

Yes, it is a very strict order to love the neighbor and the neighbor in Islam is not the next door only. He is the next to next door upto forty doors (Hadith). There was so much strictness for love and sympathy to the neighbor that the prophet said, he felt that Allah will order to make the neighbor a share holder in inheritance.

Also, it is understood that neighbor may be a Hindu or a christian or a Jew or a budhist. All have to be treated as a neighbor. This is a general order and I am sure about it.

But what the Muslims are doing is nobody’s business. They may be misguided about it or misbehaving. There is illiteracy every where. If any Muslim is not helping his neighbor then he is a sinner. He should be ashamed of himself. Not only is he required to cater for the welfare of his neighbor but also to protect the life and honor of the neighbor under all costs.

Inspiring quote! Is it possible to have the ref.no? If not, thanks anyway.

 

[Booklover]

Inspiring quote! Is it possible to have the ref.no? If not, thanks anyway.

According to the Quran:

3:28 Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah

4:141
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

I have no time and no need to read anything from other than Jesus. Already, that is not from Jesus but a descriptive from some narrator (not from God in the words of God). But still I love it because of my love for Jesus. There is something of truth and some message from Jesus in the four gospels. That is enough and all should be there in it.

I am not interested in the acts of any one but Jesus. The acts of disciples do not interest me. Specially if they put some doubt in the way Jesus acted. Those acts are good for you who understand it and love it. You may enjoy them. If there is some truth in the bible, even a least bit of truth, then it will show itself. It cannot remain hidden. So I have no worry just remaining to the four gospels.

Those gospels are more important than anything else in the bible. That is why they form the main part. That is also because they describe Jesus and his life time. they are placed as foremost in the bible before anything else. They come first. Also they speak for themselves. Do we need some one to explain them to us?? Not at all.

If they need some one to explain them then they are not powerful. They are helpless. …]

Please try to see the things in the right perspective of a good revealed book. The qualities that it should have. It should not unnecessarily depend on some one for its message to be understood.

I am trying to do just that, Planten, don’t worry! But since the Koran apparently only reports the words Muhammed heard from Allah, nothing else, I suppose Muslims must be quite at loss as to why the narratives in the Bible (both the OT and the NT). Why did the sacred writers put them? And why do we have letters from some Apostles, mostly from Paul?
Also, in Judaism as well as in Christianity, you might not be familiar with them, but in the course of the years, many commentaries (and homilies) have been made, and are still made today, either orally or in writings or both.
And if you read he Prophets in the Bible, there are cases where they comment another word of God from either one of the five books of the Torah (which Christians call the Pentateuch) or the Psalms.
Understanding comes in many layers, not just all at once. And faith precedes understanding. When you read the Koran, do you understand the whole thing all at once? Aren’t there commentators on at least how to apply what God wants from us? On when to take it spiritually and when to take it litterally?

 

[Lapell]

**Evidence from Islamic books which contain
a mention of Jesus’ journey **

In Rauzat-us-Safa, a well-known book of history, on pages 130 - 135, occurs, in the Persian language, an account, which, briefly translated, is as follows.

“Jesus (on whom be peace) was named the Messiah because he was a great traveller. He wore a woollen scarf on his head, and a woollen cloak on his body. He had a stick in his hand; he used to wander from country to country and from city to city. At nightfall he would stay where he was.
He ate jungle vegetables, drank jungle water, and went on his travels on foot. His companions, in one of his travels, once bought a horse for him; he rode the horse one day, but as he could not make any provision for the feeding of the horse, he returned it. Journeying from his country, he arrived at Nasibain, which was at a distance of several hundred miles from his home.
With him were a few of his disciples who he sent into the city to preach. In the city, however, there were current wrong and unfounded rumours about Jesus (on whom be peace) and his mother. The governor of the city, therefore, arrested the disciples and then summoned Jesus. Jesus miraculously healed some persons and exhibited other miracles.
The king of the territory of Nasibain, therefore, with all his armies and his people, became a follower of his. The legend of the ‘coming down of food’ contained in the Holy Quran belongs to the days of his travels.”
alislam.org/library/books/jesus-in-india/ch4.html

O.K., paarsurrey, and just where did Rauzat-us-Safa take this from? I doubt it would come from anywhere but Apocrypha! Un-authentic story it sure is!

 

[Lapell]

Is there anything in Islam about the duty to admonish sinners charitably? It would be a great thing.

Planten, you said you would answer if I would expand on it in a more precise way. I was referring to Matthew 18, 15-17. Is this precise enough?
(Sorry I have missed that post of yours for a long time… I just revised the previous posts a moment ago. I guess you could… admonish me!!!)

 

[R_not]

I believe I have answered the question in above posts (Post No. 536 &545). What the Muslims are doing nowdays is non of my business. Every faith is dwindling. I do not want to pass any adverse remarks about the christians. Thanks.

Please quote the surahs or hadith passages where it says to love they neighbor. I have not read that in the koran or hadiths - in fact, I have read quite the opposite. What the jihadists are doing is what is in the koran.

this is an easier read than the koran, but it will point to passages in the koran about it:
al-sunnah.com/call_to_islam/articles/shirk_the_ultimate_crime.html

If it were true that living in peace with their neighbors was the edict given by mohammed then we wouldn’t be seeing the violence that muslims are causing in the Philippines, India, Kashmir, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, Africa, etc. And while the ‘moderates’ do nothing to stop them while only concerned with their image and telling us what we want to hear. Telling us what we want to hear is called taqiyya/kithman.

And we wouldn’t be reading things like this: douglasfarah.com/article/245/the-muslim-brotherhood-in-america-defined-as-threat-organization-in-dod-memo.com

The above article just covers the muslim brotherhood, but it is also inclusive of the wahabbis that are being pushed on us by saudi arabia - they fund CAIR, over 1500 mosques in the USA, and give money to our Universities which is teaching untruths about islam to our children, etc.

A good book about the jihad of infiltration because they know that militarily they could not win so their tactics of changing a society (which is working successfully so far in the UK and Europe) is ‘A Never Ending War’ by Michael Cappi.

This is islamic ‘theology’ and to think otherwise has been many people’s folly. For islam is a political movement with imperialistic goals.

 

[planten]

Planten, you said you would answer if I would expand on it in a more precise way. I was referring to Matthew 18, 15-17. Is this precise enough?
(Sorry I have missed that post of yours for a long time… I just revised the previous posts a moment ago. I guess you could… admonish me!!!)

There is everything good in the Quran. reference will be provided to you. There is a verse which says " Allah enjoins on every one that they do good ( Justice=equal treatment to all) and they must do more than just treatment and even more than that they should treat every one as if they had not done any good at all."
'Allah forbids the leud things and the bad (dirty) things and rebellious attitude."
Also it is advised that every one should be gently advised to do good. * I do not believe that every person is a born sinner. Thanks.
But you may explain your question to me again please*.

 

[planten]

From lapell:
Planten, you said you would answer if I would expand on it in a more precise way. I was referring to Matthew 18, 15-17. Is this precise enough?

I will try to see mathew 18:15-17 and then I will reply. Thanks.

 

[Booklover]

There is everything good in the Quran. reference will be provided to you. There is a verse which says " Allah enjoins on every one that they do good ( Justice=equal treatment to all) and they must do more than just treatment and even more than that they should treat every one as if they had not done any good at all."
'Allah forbids the leud things and the bad (dirty) things and rebellious attitude."
Also it is advised that every one should be gently advised to do good. * I do not believe that every person is a born sinner. Thanks.*
But you may explain your question to me again please.

Are these some of the good things you mention?
**Unbelievers **

2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed

 

[planten]

Are these some of the good things you mention?
**Unbelievers **

2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them
2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you
3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah
4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”
4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;
8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed

Every word is true and useful. We are not supposed to offer the other cheek. That is not a practical way. It iwould be unnatural. Islam is based on nature. There were many enemies sitting near the place and also in Makkah. When Makkah was liberated, the idols were smashed and most of the people who were persecutors and killers were forgiven. The rest of bad fellows were given four months to disappear. That means they were forgiven their crimes and let them go away. They could not remain in that city.

What harm is there if they were to be hounded up. They were culprits. You please be a practical person and be natural. Love and too much Love is not the answer. It spoils the show too. Justice is needed. Love without justice is no use.

You have given the verses of the Quran. Just a few verses. I hope the rest of Quran is alright for you. It is Allah speaking. You can note the direct speech. The words you have posted are the words of Allah revealed to Muhammad. This is not a third party speech or writing. Thanks for the presentation.

If you have anything to say then please do.

 

[planten]

2:191, And slay them wherever ye catch them.

That was necessary, explained in above post.2:193, And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression

That is also necessary to fight the trouble makers.
2:216, Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you

When some one is pressing war on you, what you will do? You have toprepare the people for the war.

3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah

Very Good. Why any one should rely on the enemies and make friends with them?

4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

That is true monotheism, the faith of Abraham, issac, jacob and all the prophets.

More later…

 

[R_not]

It’s good to see someone else who is not PC about Islam!

Vickie

Thanks Vickie.

mohammed was not a nice guy and these who say he was are either ignorant, or denying the truth - OR practicing taqiyya/kithman which means deception to smooth over islam to help them continue in their jihad whether violent or non-violent (hudna, immigration, uncontrolled birth rates (increase numbers and infiltrate all institutions of the host nation), demands, da’wa, etc).

mohammed raped, enslaved, tortured, murdered, stole and lied. And this is what his followers do. If anyone claims they only practice the koran - well, that book alone is more than half preaches violence against non-muslims. It is disorganized and takes the Bible stories and totally screws them up. But, it tells the muslims directly not to change the koran and they say that the Jews and Christians did change the Bible - that is why their version is (supposedly) the correct version - funny mohammed was illiterate so it is no wonder the stories are all messed up.

but, more importantly this is why the only ones wanting the religion of islam to change are Westerners - non-muslims. mohammed told muslims NOT to change the koran or else they will go to their hades. If you do by chance hear a muslim say they want islam to change - it might be the truth - or it might be some more taqiyya/kithman. And you will never hear it from someone, or group, that has the power to do such things - you will only hear it from individuals.

I notice that some muslims are telling others not to believe me. Well, you don’t have to - it is all out there for the read for yourselves. This is why CAIR has tried to censor books. one book that they tried to censor is ‘The Life and Religion of mohammed’ by Menedez on the National Review. Well, too bad for CAIR - it is still available out there in internet land. CAIR has successfully gotten a lot of things censored - they aim for TV, radio, the media both written, TV and radio, and our Universities and businesses - besides our politicians. You will not see anything truthful about mohammed on TV for example on the History Channel, Discovery, etc. Why? Because of CAIR’s censorship.

and CAIR is now being scrutinized heavily for their terrorist ties. Since Coughlin was almost let go from the Pentagon by a muslim, called Islam, it seems that Islam was the one who was the shadey character. And at about the same time this all came down - CAIR is being heavily scrutinized for their shadey activities.

When a muslim says not to listen to another instead of honest discussion - question that motive. Believe me, if they had the power they would censor. It might still happen. The owners of this website could censor me due to a muslim not like the thought we are getting a clue as to what they are up to in our country.

 

[planten]

For Booklover:

4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

I had explained this verse in my last post. It applies to the christians also because of their meddling in the god and son of god business for Jesus. The Islamic teaching is strictly against it. Jesus called himself son of God in the spiritual sense or metaphoric sense not in any real sense. But the Jews accused him of blasphemy. He cleared their charge easily by saying that other men of God were also salled sons of God. Jesus had not said anything new. But the Jews charged him for blasphemy. Jesus did not mean that he was the son of god. He was believing in only One God. And was not claiming being a god himself.

Look at the monotheistic attitude of the Jews. How strict they are about it,or at least in their books and also the words of all the previous prophets do not ascribe any one with God. But the church has got Jesus as a god in some manner. According to Quran that is a heineous sin. Please see the verse again. God does not forgive that sin.

4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

Here for the word “Unbelievers” please read as “Enemies”. Allah is telling the prophet Muhammad to get ready and exhort the believers to fight against the enemies of Islam. There is no harm in fighting against the enemies. It is necessary to fight against the enemies of God and the prophet. Please see the previous history of religions, OT etc.

4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

Here again the unbelievers are actually not simple unbelievers. They are kaafirs i.e. enemies. Allah is telling the prophet that he will never allow the enemies to triumph over the believers. That is a good news. Is it not?
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and mean for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Good news for the believers and bad news for the enemies of God. These enemies are not enemy of Muhammad alone. They are enemy of all prophets, Moses and Jesus included. They are infidels who intend mischief in the land. They are found in all times, at the time of Moses and were present at the time of Jesus too. They are trouble makers and opponents of the message of God.

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Again this refers to the enemies. You are not an enemy of God. So why are you worried?

8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed

This is against the enemies. It is advised that when the Muslims meet or face the enemy, they should not show their back to them. But they should rather face them strongly and fight against them with courage.

All of the above applies to christians too as they are believers in Jesus. It applies to Moses too as the Jews are believers in the Torah. That advice is for all believers, not just Muslims. But at the time of revelation of Quran and the fight / struggle for truth, it concerned the Muslims.