Saint Paul and Islam

[rikkk1958]

For Booklover:

4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

I had explained this verse in my last post. It applies to the christians also because of their meddling in the god and son of god business for Jesus. The Islamic teaching is strictly against it. Jesus called himself son of God in the spiritual sense or metaphoric sense not in any real sense. But the Jews accused him of blasphemy. He cleared their charge easily by saying that other men of God were also salled sons of God. Jesus had not said anything new. But the Jews charged him for blasphemy. Jesus did not mean that he was the son of god. He was believing in only One God. And was not claiming being a god himself.

Look at the monotheistic attitude of the Jews. How strict they are about it,or at least in their books and also the words of all the previous prophets do not ascribe any one with God. But the church has got Jesus as a god in some manner. According to Quran that is a heineous sin. Please see the verse again. God does not forgive that sin.

4:84, Then fight in Allah’s cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.

Here for the word “Unbelievers” please read as “Enemies”. Allah is telling the prophet Muhammad to get ready and exhort the believers to fight against the enemies of Islam. There is no harm in fighting against the enemies. It is necessary to fight against the enemies of God and the prophet. Please see the previous history of religions, OT etc.

4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

Here again the unbelievers are actually not simple unbelievers. They are kaafirs i.e. enemies. Allah is telling the prophet that he will never allow the enemies to triumph over the believers. That is a good news. Is it not?
5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and mean for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

Good news for the believers and bad news for the enemies of God. These enemies are not enemy of Muhammad alone. They are enemy of all prophets, Moses and Jesus included. They are infidels who intend mischief in the land. They are found in all times, at the time of Moses and were present at the time of Jesus too. They are trouble makers and opponents of the message of God.

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

Again this refers to the enemies. You are not an enemy of God. So why are you worried?

8:15-16, O ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers in hostile array, never turn your backs to them. If any do turn his back to them on such a day - unless it be in a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own)- he draws on himself the wrath of Allah, and his abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed

This is against the enemies. It is advised that when the Muslims meet or face the enemy, they should not show their back to them. But they should rather face them strongly and fight against them with courage.

All of the above applies to christians too as they are believers in Jesus. It applies to Moses too as the Jews are believers in the Torah. That advice is for all believers, not just Muslims. But at the time of revelation of Quran and the fight / struggle for truth, it concerned the Muslims.

Planten, the way you explain about Jesus describing tha He is the Son of God is of course can be supported by many passages in the scriptures that He is the Son of God and the Father and the Son are One. Try to read the whole story and not jumping to one passage to another. Think of what you allah says; don’t forgive those who do not wish to partner with allah; forgive any one he pleases. This is an opposite of what Jesus’ mission on earth, that is to forgive all mankind and offer Himself as ransom for all our sins. Big difference. If your allah is merciful, it must not discriminate but the logic of this is that muhammed was not thinking enough of what he said because according to the best possible explaination, muhammed wanted to imitate the teachings in the Bible but unfortunately he missed important points.

“fight for allah’s cause, take responsibility only to thyself, wake the believers up, allah will restrain the unbelievers because allah is stronger than them”

planten, as you can see how muhammed described allah as the strongest even to the unbelievers. this is an example how little muhammed understand the power of God. A wise person will not explain anymore that God is powerful than a mere believer.

.

 

[rikkk1958]

“and allah will not let unbelievers triumph over the believers.” I will terrorize the hearts of the unbelievers,strike above their neck and take off their fingertips."

planten, you see how cruel your allah is according to muhammed? or is it that muhammed only thinks cruelty and make use of his thoughts applied to God? The description of neck and fingertips are form of cruelty that are applied when interrogating prisoners.

" as to the enemy like the unbelievers, do not turn your back but fight them like they live in hell"

planten, Jesus Christ you prophet said, “the law is changed, instead, if your enemy strikes you on one check, offer your other check also” “Love you enemy” You see the contradiction? Jesus Christ your prophet is advocating Peace on Earth and you are ranting violence

 

[FaithofAbraham]

“and allah will not let unbelievers triumph over the believers.” I will terrorize the hearts of the unbelievers,strike above their neck and take off their fingertips."

planten, you see how cruel your allah is according to muhammed? or is it that muhammed only thinks cruelty and make use of his thoughts applied to God? The description of neck and fingertips are form of cruelty that are applied when interrogating prisoners.

" as to the enemy like the unbelievers, do not turn your back but fight them like they live in hell"

planten, Jesus Christ you prophet said, “the law is changed, instead, if your enemy strikes you on one check, offer your other check also” “Love you enemy” You see the contradiction? Jesus Christ your

prophet is advocating Peace on Earth and you are ranting violence

Ishmael’s promise was manifested the same way Isaac’s promise was under Moses and Joshua, at the tip of a sword. Both were allowed by God. This is still the same God of Jesus:

Numbers 21:2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.

Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

 

[R_not]

I am sure that, at least at first, the answer is yes. There might have been a few instances where he and the Muslim with him did retaliate against certain cities for some damage their people brought to them, death to some or their own, things like that. They might have taken Israel’s retaliation raids against Amalek or against the Philistines as a “fair” model to follow comparing to what they knew then. But other than that, I don’t remember that Muhammed himself instigated anything according to that biography written by a Rumanian Orthodox priest, Virgil C. Gheorghiu, who happened to be the author of the novel The Twenty-Fifth Hour, from which a movie was made starring Anthony Quinn. I read a good number of his novels, he used a poetic style in prose. He also wrote books on Patriarch Athenagoras and saint John Chrysostom (Golden Mouth)… I don’t see in him any reason to want to avoid the negative about Muhammed, and there are a few things… But in Moses’ times, to be fair, Muhammed might have been considered a righteous man. If he was unaware of any Catholic Church faithful to the teachings of the Magisterium, then I don’t see that we should condemn him himself. He relied on the angel for the messages he proclaimed and trusted them to come from the true Allah (Christian Arabs, like I said earlier, used to call God: Allah… even before Muhammed ever started mentionning Him!) How could he tell an authentic angel of God from angels rebellious to God? I know that the Koran has had a tremendous influence on so many people, but sincerity can prevail over truth in the mind of many who have no way of telling the difference. What has been said against the Catholic Church may have to do with the poor example displayed by a number of people who happened to call themselves Catholics, or with proper customs of theirs which seemed unacceptable to those who turned instead to Islam…

As a matter of fact all the wars and raids, except for one, were wars that mohammed and his band of followers instigated. The first being against the Quraysh. He was said to have fought in over 35 of the 75+ battles and raids. And from these battles and raids, he not only captured property - but he also passed out women and children as booty. He started his ‘career’ of death and destruction AFTER he started islam.

‘The Life and Religion of mohammed’ (you can still find this book on the web even though CAIR has been trying to systematiclly get it censored)
‘The Sword of the Prophet, islam’
‘The Politically Incorrect Guide (PIG) to islam’
‘the Truth about mohammed’

listed above are several books, besides the koran and hadiths. Quite often muslims will push the so called ‘peaceful’ version of the koran. You need to read the koran that has both of the versions - Medina (surahs 8 and 9 if I remember correctly) and Meccan surahs) because the old surahs (Meccan - peaceful) were replaced by the new surahs (Medina - violent).

A lot of misinformation by muslims themselves on this thread is being tossed around.

The only way to know the truth is to read for yourselves. I will certainly get the argument that whatever I have read is not valid - usually muslims will say that. It is hogwash. Read what they read and they won’t like it because then you will know their tactics - the koran is a book of battle tactics against non-muslims. You will know their imperialistic goals and if you study their history you will read it for yourself.

So often our history has been changed to accomodate the muslims. Our school children are getting a censored/twisted version of history as to not offend the muslims.

frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=51F8227F-2D46-469C-93E7-1DE569EB5BC3

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={201608E1-4222-4BCE-AD63-ACBF71C0B0B6}

Quite often the Universites are allowing muslims to censor articles going in the newspapers, eg: Univ of Oregon. There are others.

so, be suspect of what muslims want you to read. If you want daily updates of what muslim violence against non-muslims are going on worldwide - go to jihadwatch.org. This is an organization that CAIR tried to take down, but was unable. (when CAIR goes after somethign - be suspect - it is something they don’t want us to know as in the book I mention above)

 

[swariffin]

Hi

It is very unfortunate that our Catholic friends don’t have the ** ScriptureProper **- the Word of GodAllahYHWH revealed on Jesus in the original language of Hebrew or Aramaic which Jesus and Mary spoke. They don’t have even the ActsProper- the Acts of Jesus which he performed to demonstrate what he was commanded by GodAllahYHWH.

The Acts of disciples is also not of the proper disciples of Jesus. These are Acts of those disciples of Jesus whom he did not, in my opinion, trust as those who were his trusted friends he took them along when he disappeared from Galilee alongwith his mother Mary to his journey to far off place.
This has been mentioned by the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 in his book “Jesus in India”

Dear Paarsurrey,

Hebrew and Aramaic are some sort of different languages, may be just like the Mandarin and Hokkian, or the Bahasa Indonesia and the Javanese. There was no indication also that the Hebrew and Aramaic have different sets of characters. All of the Hebrew in the land of Judea were bilingual or even trilingual (Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek). Jesus spoke those 3 languages. All of the gospels of Jesus was not written in the land of Judea. So, those gospels could not have been written in Hebrew, let alone in Aramaic for there was no specific sets of Aramaic characters. Not even those gospels were written in Hebrew, since not all and even few Israelites living outside Judea could read Hebrew. But, many Israelites living in the land of Judea COULD read Greek, especially the educated ones. That was why a group of 70 experts translated the OT from the Hebrew into the Greek, called the Septuagint back from 120 BC. And for sure, those Israelites in the land of Judea knew the deciples as they were still alive in that time.

A language can have no specific sets of characters/alphabet, such as the Bahasa Indonesia. We are using the roman alphabets, for there is no such kind of Indonesian alphabet. And yet, the Bahasa Indonesia was derived from the Melayu language which was the linguafranca of the traders in the Strait of Malacca region back in the 15th century. You knows where those traders came from? They were from Gujarat (India), Arab, China and Indochina, Acehnese, Melayu, Javanese and Sundanese, and later the Europeans (Portuguese, English, Spanish and Dutch).

To sum up, there was no such gospels written in Aramaic/Hebrew since all the NT were written in Greek. So, there was no such kind of “Scripture Proper” or the “Gospel of Jesus” as you claim. If you have those, please show it to us, so we can verify where those documen come from. May be we can pass it to the Vatican to see what those experts say.

 

[planten]

Please when posting (R_not etc) remember that Muhammad did not start all the wars, please consider the following:

1. Muhammad did not start any war. He lived and preached peacefully in makkah for 13 years. Same as Jesus did for three years.
2. He and his friends were highly persecuted during the 13 years.
3. His friends even had to run away (migrate) to a christian country (Ethopia).
4. He was about to be killed in Makkah. It was a plan to kill him.
5. Under divine command, he had to leave his home (migrate).
6. There was a price on his head, dead or alive (100 camels).
7. He reached Madinah safely in such bad conditions.
8. Still the enmity of the polytheists was not reduced.
9. Muhammad had to take steps for safety and made agreements with the tribes of Madinah, Jews and christians, all. It was a secular type of agreement caring for all faiths. The agreement can be seen even today in some museums.
10. The Quresh of Makkah (The enemies) were planning to attack Madinah. Muhammad had all the news about their bad intentions.
11. He had to take steps to stop them from attacking Madinah.
12. Whatever he did was the right step. It was no use taking things lightly. If he had slept and taken things easy then he and all his friends would have been killed. It would have been like what happened to jesus and his followers.
13. Muhammad was being guided and commanded by God all the time. He was not doing anything on his own wishes. Please see the Old Testament, how the Israelis were guided and commanded all the time by the God through the prophets.
    14, If any one will accuse Muhammad for starting any fights/ wars then that will be very bad. Every one should see the behaviour of the opponnets of Muhammad, how harsh it was. Please do not forget that bad behaviour. They (enemies) were criminals. They deserved to be killed anyhow.
14. Please have a wide and fair view of the system. Thanks.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hebrew and Aramaic are some sort of different languages, may be just like the Mandarin and Hokkian, or the Bahasa Indonesia and the Javanese. There was no indication also that the Hebrew and Aramaic have different sets of characters. All of the Hebrew in the land of Judea were bilingual or even trilingual (Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek). Jesus spoke those 3 languages. All of the gospels of Jesus was not written in the land of Judea. So, those gospels could not have been written in Hebrew, let alone in Aramaic for there was no specific sets of Aramaic characters. Not even those gospels were written in Hebrew, since not all and even few Israelites living outside Judea could read Hebrew. But, many Israelites living in the land of Judea COULD read Greek, especially the educated ones. That was why a group of 70 experts translated the OT from the Hebrew into the Greek, called the Septuagint back from 120 BC. And for sure, those Israelites in the land of Judea knew the deciples as they were still alive in that time.

Dear Swariffin!

Hi

I think your views stem more from theological tradition/belief rather than from Historical Jesus or Historicity of Jesus or historicity of the New Testament accounts .

However, you could have different views from mine with peace and respect from me.

My belief in Moses, Torah, Jesus, Mary and NTBible is because of Word of GodAllahYHWH as contained in Quran.

The proper historical accounts are, in my opinion, day by day nearing with what is mentioned in Quran.

Thanks

 

[rikkk1958]

Ishmael’s promise was manifested the same way Isaac’s promise was under Moses and Joshua, at the tip of a sword. Both were allowed by God. This is still the same God of Jesus:

Numbers 21:2 And Israel vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver this people into my hand, then I will utterly destroy their cities.

Numbers 21:3 And the LORD hearkened to the voice of Israel, and delivered up the Canaanites; and they utterly destroyed them and their cities: and he called the name of the place Hormah.

FaithofAbraham, Jesus your prophet said that the OT was fulfilled, which means it is the past and Jesus is the present, This is why Jesus is preaching Love and Peace on Earth for all mankind and that He offered His life for us. If muhammed consider Jesus as a prophet he should follow his example but it seems that that is only a diversion for all his true intentions which was to rule over Arabia by invoking the words in the Bible, however, he was illiterate that could not read and did not understand the story in the Bible. His teachings as you decipher them provide so many contradictions indicating that his stories are not collaborating from one chapter to another. Jesus is offering you salvation and listen to His Words. Just read all those parables He taught and you will find the truth and promise mankind has in hand to follow HIm.

 

[Lapell]

For Booklover:

4:48 “Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.”

I had explained this verse in my last post. It applies to the christians also because of their meddling in the god and son of god business for Jesus. The Islamic teaching is strictly against it. Jesus called himself son of God in the spiritual sense or metaphoric sense not in any real sense. But the Jews accused him of blasphemy. He cleared their charge easily by saying that other men of God were also salled sons of God. Jesus had not said anything new. But the Jews charged him for blasphemy. Jesus did not mean that he was the son of god. He was believing in only One God. And was not claiming being a god himself.
According to which book? What of Jn 10, 30-39? Jesus actually didn’t deny the accusation, he meant that in his case, it is not wrong. He didn’t change a word in his discourse on the one true bread of Life given by God, even when some disciples turned away, left him and never came back!

 

[FaithofAbraham]

FaithofAbraham, Jesus your prophet said that the OT was fulfilled, which means it is the past and Jesus is the present…

I don’t think he did say that, not yet.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

When does heaven and earth pass? In the very end, when there is no more sin and death.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[Lapell]

When Muhammed says that Jesus never said he is God, since he was illiterate, I take it he was unable to check in any Gospel parchments that it was or was not as he was told. God would not have been afraid if he had and could have, for the Truth could be confirmed and falsehood be proved false.

 

[R_not]

The Quran does not tell the Muslims to kill any one, Not at all to kill any catholic. Show me where the quran tells to kill any Catholic.? It is such wrong reports that you are spreading against Islam which will help to spread the message of Islam. When people will read the Quran, they will come to know your wrong reports. Then they will think about it all the more.

Nobody likes to buy a second grade item. No body loves a lie. the Muslims are not to fight any one unless he fights and kills the Muslims. That is the true and correct education. But the church hasn’t even got to that much good teaching.

The koran does not specifically say to kill Catholics, but ALL non-muslims.

the one thing that can be assured - islam is one ‘religion’ that keeps on giving as far as proof of its violence, it orders to kill infidels (any non-muslim), etc.

islamic teachings in the koran
youtube.com/watch?v=g2W9XUKHJiQ

A piece on Walid Shobat on ‘What the West Needs to Know about islam’.
youtube.com/watch?v=UQS_Wy8MKvw

Now, here is the part of the koran where violent jihad is the most blessed. It is only one of the Medina surahs that abrogates all those peaceful passages that the musims know we are ignorant of.
hotair.com/archives/2007/11/11/blogging-the-qur%e2%80%99an-sura-9-%e2%80%9crepentance%e2%80%9d-verses-1-5/

But keep in mind that violent jihad is not their only tactic or else we wouldn’t see saudi arabia buying up stock in our businesses/media, giving money to the Universities, supporting the likes of CAIR, or building madrassas that push the wahabbism that has caused so much chaos in our time. There is immigration/uncontrolled birth rates, da’wa, hudna, taqiyya/kithman to name the more known.

More on Incessant jihad from dhimmiwatch
<a jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/019411.php#more

Our religion has not changed, if it was jihad then it is jihad now
jihadwatch.org/archives/019414.php

allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise: they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain
jihadwatch.org/archives/019408.php

MUSLIMS KILL AROUND THE GLOBE WHILE US LIBS DENY TERROR BY ISLAMISTS
longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/01/the_state_of_jihad_2.php

sudden jihad syndrome in the USA
washingtontimes.com/article/20080102/NATION/203823370/1001

There is more, but this should suffice for now.

One thing can be certain, it seems that not only is islam the ‘religion’ that keeps on giving as far as proof that it is violent - its adherents are in eternal denail that anyone could put two and two together and figure it out. This is why they prefer their way of life - 12th century stupidity to keep the masses in ignorance.

 

[Lapell]

I don’t think he did say that, not yet.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

When does heaven and earth pass? In the very end, when there is no more sin and death.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Well, he said: “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Scriptures; I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill (or “accomplish”).” (Mt 5, 17)
And on the cross, among his last words, he said: “All is accomplished (or fulfilled)” And having bent his head he commended his spirit [into his Father’s hand]." Jn 19,30 and Lk 23, 46 (“Father, into Your hands I commend my spirit.”)

 

[Lapell]

This means that the Scriptures are fulfilled. Some remains to be seen in the course of temporal time, but even what will be seen is already accomplished and is sure to happen, and it’s thanks to Jesus… Either it’s a blasphemy or the plain truth! Jesus, just about to die, said: “All is accomplished!” For all that he did, if he is a blasphemer, wouldn’t it be a supreme sin and there’s nothing that will save him, according to the Koran. But if he is what he claimed to be, saying “the Father and I are one” and “Before Abraham was, I AM”, then… Any prophet in the OT who ever said: “All is accomplished”? with whose authority?

 

[Lapell]

In Hebrew, there is no such thing as a past tense and future tense verb. But interestingly, there is such a thing as an imperfective tense (unfinished) and a perfective tense (finished).
Christians of Jewish origin such as the Gospels’ writers (all but Luke) are sure to covey this idea of things finished and things unfinished in their accounts. Whether the fulfilment has already taken place or is to be seen later (but is sure to be seen then) is not that important. But that the fulfilment is there sure does. Have faith in God!:yup: :clapping: :console:

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Well, he said: “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Scriptures; I have come not to abolish, but to fulfill (or “accomplish”).” (Mt 5, 17)
And on the cross, among his last words, he said: “All is accomplished (or fulfilled)” And having bent his head he commended his spirit [into his Father’s hand]." Jn 19,30 and Lk 23, 46 (“Father, into Your hands I commend my spirit.”)

His sacrifice was fulfilled, but not all the Law since he said it won’t pass until heaven and earth does.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

In Hebrew, there is no such thing as a past tense and future tense verb. But interestingly, there is such a thing as an imperfective tense (unfinished) and a perfective tense (finished).
Christians of Jewish origin such as the Gospels’ writers (all but Luke) are sure to covey this idea of things finished and things unfinished in their accounts. Whether the fulfilment has already taken place or is to be seen later (but is sure to be seen then) is not that important. But that the fulfilment is there sure does. Have faith in God!:yup: :clapping: :console:

Everything is fulfilled when sin and death are gone forever from all humans, that’s when the New Covenant is in full effect. In Revelation as I posted, that’s after heaven and earth pass and Satan is destroyed.

 

[Lapell]

His sacrifice was fulfilled, but not all the Law since he said it won’t pass until heaven and earth does.

This post was sent before my last post was seen, wasn’t it? Some things about the Hebrew way of thinking certainly is important when studying the Bible, even the Greek New Testament which actually was written by Jewish people, so hebraisms were bound to pop up everywhere in the texts!

 

[Lapell]

Everything is fulfilled when sin and death are gone forever from all humans, that’s when the New Covenant is in full effect. In Revelation as I posted, that’s after heaven and earth pass and Satan is destroyed.

You view things according to temporal time, not according to Hebrew grammar! Those were Hebrews, remember! Maybe Arabic has such a dimension in it, since it’s a Semitic language, or has it not?

 

[Lapell]

Everything is fulfilled when sin and death are gone forever from all humans, that’s when the New Covenant is in full effect. In Revelation as I posted, that’s after heaven and earth pass and Satan is destroyed.

Correction: every fulfilment will be seen by all then, which is not quite the same thing! As for Revelation, the liturgy that fills its pages is already in the here and now at mass, as Dr Scott Hahn shows in his book The Lamb’s Supper. The mass is said by so many Catholic authors (among them the Fathers of the Church) to be heaven on earth, nothing less! Of course, it’s a matter of faith, your material eyes can’t see it, but it’s there… a great mystery indeed!