Saint Paul and Islam

[Lapell]

I have memories of reports from Irak where the people screamed anti-American things. Saddam Hussein was still there then. But as soon as they had evidence that Saddam Hussein was captured, they started to sing quite another song, as the people say. They then were thankful and full of joy. In Bagdad, I mean. So the people had felt somehow forced to appear greatly anti-American… So what it’s said about the people themselves one has to be careful… It may not all be like it seems, especially where there are dictators…

 

[planten]

You want to know what they do now - here:

muslim terror attacks
thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks

This has this years attacks against non-muslims and there are links to previous years.

It is funny that you think that everything is in the past for a muslim while muslims can’t get over ‘crusaders’, or use the koran and mohammed’s examples as reasons why they torture and kill non-muslims.

When a muslim says that something I say is invalid then I know I am on the right path.

That has nothing to do with Islam and its teachings. It may be all political. So please see how many muslims are being killed by non-Muslims forces. It is possible that the oppressed people are reacting against the forces of tyranny.

That has nothing to do with religion. Islam is not responsible for that.

 

[R_not]

Are you saying that some terror attacks came from Muslim moderates? Are you saying that all Muslims without exception agree with those terror attacks?

Yeah to both questions.

And why do I say that? Well, look at what Geert Wilders is doing - putting out a movie and muslims are against it. So, they have been rioting, muslims from other countries are demanding this film be censored, and a fatwa has been issued against Geert.

The latest being the fatwa:
jihadwatch.org/archives/020139.php

Ok, and now we have the attacks worldwide and not a peep. Not a peep when a Buddhist was doused with flames when he was riding his bicycle. Not a peep when schoolgirls in Indonesia are beheaded. Not a peep - or massive demonstrations - on 9/11. Not a peep - or massive demonstrations for any terrorist act commited by muslims. Silence. But, a cartoon draws muslims to riot in the street and when the cartoon first came out - an old nun was killed, churches were burned, etc. Get my drift?

The masses of ‘moderates’ are more concerned about islam’s image and do indeed practice deception (taqiyya) to smooth over islam.

Those examples above are just a tiny minority of events that we hear no peep about from muslims. When do we hear muslims wail? Well, after they bomb Israel daily and the Israelis finally fire back - we hear muslims wail that they are the victims. They have even used dead bodies as propoganda against the Israelis - and also against us. They lob a bomb from a house that has women and children in it, run, and when the Israelis struck back - it kills some of those inside the house. The muslims started the violence (as they also do in Gaza) and then they wail they are the victims when they are not.

The same thing happens here, and especially now in Europe. Europeans basically are ignoring the violence and not reporting it. When the do deal with it the muslims wail they are the victims of the crimes - when in fact they are not. Safe houses (for abused women) are full of muslim women. There is no such thing in the Middle East and once the muslim women find out about these safe houses they have filled them up.

(some good books: Eurasia, While Europe Slept, and/or Menace in Europe)

Keep abreast of the happenings of muslims via jihadwatch.org and you will get a stomach full of it from around the world.

And I can’t repeat this often enough - read, ‘A Never Ending War’. This one is a must read for ALL infidels.

 

[R_not]

That has nothing to do with Islam and its teachings. It may be all political. So please see how many muslims are being killed by non-Muslims forces. It is possible that the oppressed people are reacting against the forces of tyranny.

That has nothing to do with religion. Islam is not responsible for that.

Well, yes it does. It is the koran that the muslims use to justify their killings. It is jihad that they are doing. All I got to say is read the koran and hadiths. Blog it with Mr. Spencer on jihadwatch.org and follow along in a koran. It is all archived and you can start and read at your leisure.

jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php

The political islam and the ‘religion’ of islam are one and the same. It is why muslim nations have sharia law and why so many muslims in so many non-muslim lands are insisting on sharia law. It usually starts out with sharia law for themselves and when their numbers increase it starts being put into the law of the lands.

All I got to say is read. Read islam’s history and you will see. Listen to them - don’t listen to yourself. (it is like reading Sun Tsu’s ‘The Art of War’ and knowing your enemy)

I posted a few books that I thought were good (I have read more - but these books are not short reads and you can go from there). It is post #913 on page 61.

 

[Booklover]

Well, yes it does. It is the koran that the muslims use to justify their killings. It is jihad that they are doing. All I got to say is read the koran and hadiths. Blog it with Mr. Spencer on jihadwatch.org and follow along in a koran. It is all archived and you can start and read at your leisure.

jihadwatch.org/articles/bloggingtheq.php

The political islam and the ‘religion’ of islam are one and the same. It is why muslim nations have sharia law and why so many muslims in so many non-muslim lands are insisting on sharia law. It usually starts out with sharia law for themselves and when their numbers increase it starts being put into the law of the lands.

All I got to say is read. Read islam’s history and you will see. Listen to them - don’t listen to yourself. (it is like reading Sun Tsu’s ‘The Art of War’ and knowing your enemy)

I posted a few books that I thought were good (I have read more - but these books are not short reads and you can go from there). It is post #913 on page 61.

Vickie

 

[R_not]

That has nothing to do with Islam and its teachings. It may be all political. So please see how many muslims are being killed by non-Muslims forces. It is possible that the oppressed people are reacting against the forces of tyranny.

That has nothing to do with religion. Islam is not responsible for that.

I also want to address the ‘is possible that the oppressed people are reacting against the forces of tyranny.’

What tyranny? We haven’t gone in there to capture them or land. We have given them more in trying to get them on their feet than any other country on this earth - even their own muslim countries. We give them more foreign aid and what do they do? For example, the Palestinians are certainly not feeding their children or getting a government organized - they buy more bombs to lob into Israel.

The muslims have more excuses why they kill and us infidels suck them all up and behave as if we are the guilty ones while they have done jihad (murder and mayhem) for 1400 years and continue to this day.

They say it is poverty. Well, why do doctors in England try to put bombs on planes? Or Bin Laden continually attack us (he came from a very rich family). Why do University students from saudi arabia - after they have taken their islamic studies - leave saudi arabia and can be found in Iraq doing a jihad? Or training as jihadists in Pakistan? Or all the saudis who put planes into our buildings - they were not poor guys. Or all the money that saudi arabia is pouring into building mosques around our country (and also the world) to push wahabbism? Or also they give our Universities money and they require the Universities to acquiesce to their wishes in return. Or the monies that is poured into stocks so they can control our media and other businesses?

That oppression crud is just that - crud. And it makes a good, sensational story and sells newspapers as our media is happy to do - while printing muslim propaganda.

 

[R_not]

Vickie

Vickie, thanks for your moral support.

I am finding this thread and the ‘sister amy’ on the other thread a lot of work! sister amy is quite a ‘work’. She is good at that thing called taqiyya.

 

[Booklover]

Vickie, thanks for your moral support.

I am finding this thread and the ‘sister amy’ on the other thread a lot of work! sister amy is quite a ‘work’. She is good at that thing called taqiyya.

Oh yes, she’s quite a handful!! Check out this new thread I started regarding Muslim tactics in debating!

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Taqiyya again. I’m waiting for someone to show me an Islamic scholar who teaches this thing.

If you think I am too much work then just be quiet. I’m not insulting Catholicism, just giving the Muslim view.

You all don’t give the Muslim view, you give Robert Spencer’s view. He has a knack for deliberately mistranslating original sources in his book… shameful really.

Unless you feel threatened by the truth about Islam–why so violent towards me? The attacks levied at me seem to be the “morally ugly” character which Vickie believes should be hated.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Taqiyya again. I’m waiting for someone to show me an Islamic scholar who teaches this thing.

Taqqiya is mainly a shiite thingie. What kind of Muslim are you, Amy?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Taqqiya is mainly a shiite thingie. What kind of Muslim are you, Amy?

Sunni. (aka Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama’a)

 

[AgnosTheist]

Sunni. (aka Ahl as-Sunnah wal-Jama’a)

In that case, its not fair to accuse you of taqqiya.

Because for you guys, Taqqiya strictly applies to life and death situations.

You guys out there, just stop this now. You are just being ridiculous. Accusing our sunni friend of taqqiya and yet cant stop talking to her.

 

[Lapell]

I’m not insulting Catholicism, just giving the Muslim view …] you give Robert Spencer’s view. He has a knack for deliberately mistranslating original sources in his book… shameful really.

Some examples?.. If some people among the non-Muslims with a very good knowledge of Arabic could confirm, since some seem to believe it’s all made up? I unfortunately don’t know Arabic itself much… Please and thank you!

 

[Lapell]

I’m just realising that even with confirmation from non-Muslim people some people might not believe her even then!..

 

[R_not]

Taqqiya is mainly a shiite thingie. What kind of Muslim are you, Amy?

To both of you, including ‘sister amy’ - it is called kithman in the sunni sect of islam.

And it is indeed a legitimate practice.

“Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them” (Qur’an 3:28).

The Sunni Qur’an commentator Ibn Kathir explains that in this verse “Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers.” However, exempted from this rule were “those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, ‘The Tuqyah [taqiyyah] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.’"

This practice is also sanctioned by the Qur’an warning Muslims that those who forsake Islam will be consigned to Hell — except those forced to do so, but who remain true Muslims inwardly: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief — except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith — but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty” (Qur’an 16:106). Ibn Kathir explains that “the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse.”

Moreover, Sahih Bukhari, the hadith collection that Sunnis consider the most reliable, records three times Muhammad’s statement that “war is deceit.” Are we to suppose that no Sunni who reads that thinks it is a principle worth implementing?

Another hadith in a collection considered reliable by Sunnis has Muhammad saying that lying is permissible “in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)” (Sahih Muslim 6303). Muhammad also gave the killer of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf permission to lie in order to deceive Ka’b and lure him to his death.

The above was taken from here:
jihadwatch.org/archives/015800.php

But, if you read the sources directly instead of jihadwatch.org’s articles - that is fine too.

 

[R_not]

In that case, its not fair to accuse you of taqqiya.

Because for you guys, Taqqiya strictly applies to life and death situations.

You guys out there, just stop this now. You are just being ridiculous. Accusing our sunni friend of taqqiya and yet cant stop talking to her.

Go read this and stop being silly - I should have a right to catch her in her lala land version of islam:

The Sunni Qur’an commentator Ibn Kathir explains that in this verse “Allah prohibited His believing servants from becoming supporters of the disbelievers, or to take them as comrades with whom they develop friendships, rather than the believers.” However, exempted from this rule were “those believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers. In this case, such believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda’ said, ‘We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.’ Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, ‘The Tuqyah [taqiyyah] is allowed until the Day of Resurrection.’"

This practice is also sanctioned by the Qur’an warning Muslims that those who forsake Islam will be consigned to Hell — except those forced to do so, but who remain true Muslims inwardly: “Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters unbelief — except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in faith — but such as open their breast to unbelief, on them is wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful penalty” (Qur’an 16:106). Ibn Kathir explains that “the scholars agreed that if a person is forced into disbelief, it is permissible for him to either go along with them in the interests of self-preservation, or to refuse.”

Moreover, Sahih Bukhari, the hadith collection that Sunnis consider the most reliable, records three times Muhammad’s statement that “war is deceit.” Are we to suppose that no Sunni who reads that thinks it is a principle worth implementing?

Another hadith in a collection considered reliable by Sunnis has Muhammad saying that lying is permissible “in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)” (Sahih Muslim 6303). Muhammad also gave the killer of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf permission to lie in order to deceive Ka’b and lure him to his death.

jihadwatch.org/archives/015800.php

Read the website and go to the original writings. lying to deceive, to smooth over islam to us 'infidels is a very common practice.

 

[R_not]

Oh yes, she’s quite a handful!! Check out this new thread I started regarding Muslim tactics in debating!

Vickie

Thanks much!

I notice your pic always has St. Joan of Arc. I admire her. She had guts - and she does way more than I do - she got right out there face to face. I am behind a PC with an anonymous id.

The thing with muslims is that they will threaten violence, if not outright doing of the violence. So many have had to go into hiding due to such things as a cartoon, a movie (Theo Van Gogh was killed, and Ayan Hirsi Ali has 24 hour guards around her), etc. because of muslim violence, and the threats of death. And this is what the ‘moderates’ defend. We should be asking them if they are so ‘moderate’ how can they believe and follow a prophet who was a rapist, enslaver, thief, liar, torturer, and murderer?! Who are the liars - the so called ‘radicals’ who follow their prophet’s words and deeds, or the so called ‘moderates’?!

 

[Lapell]

Hum! Saint Joan of Arc wasn’t fighting against Muslims…

 

[Lapell]

We should be asking them if they are so ‘moderate’ how can they believe and follow a prophet who was a rapist, enslaver, thief, liar, torturer, and murderer?! Who are the liars - the so called ‘radicals’ who follow their prophet’s words and deeds, or the so called ‘moderates’?!

Suppose for a moment that there are moderate Muslims, with or without the " at each end of the word, among the Muslims who genuinely believe that Muhammad was not a rapist, thief. liar, enslaver, torturer, and murderer? That it must be just legends… ( you know, things that never happened but are true anyway, as Fr. Groeshel put it)

 

[R_not]

Suppose for a moment that there are moderate Muslims, with or without the " at each end of the word, among the Muslims who genuinely believe that Muhammad was not a rapist, thief. liar, enslaver, torturer, and murderer? That it must be just legends… ( you know, things that never happened but are true anyway, as Fr. Groeshel put it)

Well, then I guess it is about time we start telling them the truth. Tell them to read their own koran and hadiths. Many things are in there, but also they would have to do something they are not told to do… question their ‘religion’. They are told that if they do question it, change it, or leave it they will go to hades.

This is why we need to stop ‘tiptoeing’ around them and just tell it as it is when they are around us. Appeasing them is not the answer. If we appease them all they do is demand more from us.

This is tricky. When they talk of innocents - they only refer to muslims - infidels are not innocent according to mohammed. When they talk of things such as abusing muslims, or our intolerance towards them (islamophobes), or we are prejudiced against them - we have to realize that this is just not true.

What they want is to become the dominate ones (remember their only idea of peace with us is to become the dominate ones and for us infidels to be either dead, converted or subjugated).

When we treat them as equals and do not give them special priviledges, such as segregated bathrooms (gee, segregation was supposed to be against the law!) because we are considered dirty to them, or foot baths, or halt everything because they have to pray in our schools and businesses that is when they say they are abused, or not treating them right.

It is called the ‘creeping sharia’ - basically they start demanding us concede to them while they do nothing in return and we start accepting their laws instead of our own as in the case of segregation, etc.