Saint Rasputin - no such chance

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Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Matthew 26:52
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
 
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

So why didn’t they fight back?
 
Fr Ambrose:
Josaphat Kuntsevich? Alojzije Stepinac? Cults confirmed by Rome. One already canonised , the other well on the way.
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You will have to forgive me, Father, but I do not see your point. What do these folks have to do with the question of whether or not some Orthodox individuals will be revered as saints by Orthodox believers? My only point was that the business of glorifying saints is much more grass-roots in the East, so the opinion of a Metropolitan does not count for nearly as much in the Orthodox context as it does in the Catholic context.

This metropolitan does not want to see Rasputin canonized; fine. If he can convince the other 99.9% of Russian Orthodox believers then he will get his way. If not, then Rasputin will be canonized quite regardless. To be very sure, I am betting against Rasputin’s canonization, but my point is that it is somewhat misleading to cite some individual Russian hierarch as if his pronouncement settles the matter. That is not how it works among the Orthodox (or so I was given to understand).
 
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Myhrr:
Some Orthodox perspectives, for interest:

incommunion.org/resources/iraqwar.htm
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I’d just like to focus on what Patriarch Bartholomew wrote:

“With this opportunity, the Ecumenical Patriarchate reminds everyone that the basic prerequisite of peace is the respect for the sanctity of the human person and his freedom and dignity. From this respect are born all other prerequisites for the peaceful co-existence of all human beings on Earth in the love of one God and Father, who is not a God of war and battle but of reconciliation and peace.”

He is quite correct. The basic requisite for peace is the respect for the sanctity of the human person and his freedom and dignity.

In Iraq respect for the sanctity of the human person was almost non-existent. Freedom and dignity had virtually ceased to exist in Iraq. A war of liberation was needed to restore this human respect and sanctity, human freedom and dignity. The same type of war of liberation was endorsed by the Ecumenical Patriarchate to free the Greeks from the yoke of Islam.

Look at how freedom and dignity had been destroyed in Iraq…

Where was the sanctity of life and dignity of the human person for the Iraqi citizens who were tortured by branding, electric shock administered to the genitals and other areas, beatings, removal of
fingernails, amputations without anesthesia, burning with hot irons and blowtorches, suspension from rotating ceiling fans, dripping of acid on the skin, rape, breaking of limbs, and denial of food and water, murdered by shredding through plastic shredding machines,

Where was the sanctity of life for the approximately 3,000 people killed in Iraqi prisons in the last 5 years before the Allied Powers went in.

Where was the freedom and dignity for the 30,000 - 60,000 people killed in the gory 1991 suppression of Kurdish and Shia insurgencies in Northern and Southern Iraq,

The estimated 100,000 - 180,000 of the Kurdish population systematiclly annihilated in Northern Iraq in 1987-88,

The 5,000 people killed by poison gas in Halabja in 1988,

The thousands of Iranian prisoners of war, summarily executed,

The 200,000 Kurdish and Turkomen families forcibly deported from northern to southern Iraq,

The thousands of Marsh Arabs who were killed in southern Iraq and their civilisation obliterated,

So yes, the Patriarch is right. There could be no peace in Iraq until measures were taken to return human dignity and freedom.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
This metropolitan does not want to see Rasputin canonized; fine. If he can convince the other 99.9% of Russian Orthodox believers then he will get his way. If not, then Rasputin will be canonized quite regardless.
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Where on earth did you get the notion that 99.9% of Russian Orthodox want this debauched man declared a Saint :confused:

firstworldwar.com/bio/rasputin.htm
 
Fr Ambrose:
Where on earth did you get the notion that 99.9% of Russian Orthodox want this debauched man declared a Saint.
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I think you misunderstand me, Father. My only point was that so long as any contigent of Russian Orthodox believers want to revere him as a saint, his cause is still alive. The Metropolitan (as I understand it) cannot stop the cause from proceeding in quite the same way that Cardinal Martins can stop a cause in the Roman Catholic Church. As such, if he really wants to put an end to it, he must persuade everyone else in the Church (hence the “99.9%”) to abandon it. That said, I understand that the band of supporters for Ivan, Rasputin and Stalin are a small and freakish band of ultra-nationalists who do not stand much of a chance of persuading their fellow Xians to revere this unwholesome trio. I certainly did not mean to give the impression that the movement is widespread.
 
Canonization in Russian Orthodox Church requires the action of a Metropolitan or of the Archiereiskii Sobor. Probable this is different from Roman Church, but the rejection of Ivan Groznii and Gregorii Rasputin was not by Metropolitan Iuvelanii alone but by entire Sobor. The rejection of canonization by the Archiereiskii Sobor will beyond doubt be definitive.

PS By the side, who is Alexander Galitzen? Same as famous American film maker?? Was he prominent American Orthodox writer??
 
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Myhrr:
Oh right, the history of the early Church is full of heroic stories of our martyrs resisting evil by killing…
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So Myhrr, your admiting that the Orthodox church has changed?
 
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Vyacheslav:
Orthodoxy is also clear that hiring a mercanary to do the killing is also a sin, so the person who made the order is a sinner. Orthodox dogma doesn’t say that that is OK.

Also, the Orthodox position on war is very practical. According to Alexander Golitzen, in Orthodoxy there is no just war theory. War may be necessary, but it is ALWAYS a sin. (Sin in Orthodoxy is defined as a movement away from God, and not based completely on culpability–I think Catholics are different on this.) So even if one participates in a necessary war, he must make repentence for what he has done. In other words, the Orthodox believe that there are necessary wars, but they never classify a war as morally righteous.
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That last sentence is interesting 🙂 - ethical choices can, in the abstract at least, be neither righteous, nor sinful: IOW, they can be ethically neutral. (There was a controversy among RC moralists on whether human acts could ever be morally neutral, some 300 years ago.)​

Would Orthodox teachers consider that our acts can ever be ethically neutral ? This is a pretty relevant point. TY in advance.

FWIW, a war can necessary without being righteous - this does not mean it is therefore a sin. AFAICS 🙂 ##
 
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Myhrr:
Britain kept out by appeasing Hitler, not objecting to rearming etc. and meanwhile giving away bits of another country to which it had no rights. When Hitler threatened to bomb Prague anyway and Czechoslovakia surrendered Britain had to enter the war because of its agreement to protect Polish borders, Poland being one of the beneficiaries of Britains previous largesse in giving away parts of Czechoslovakia.

Do you know the history of the Boer War? At the turn of the 20th century gold was found in them thar hills and Britain decided it wanted it and slaughtered the Dutch in that part of South Africa until they got it.
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And this is relevant to Catholicism in what respect ?​

Your claim to wield the sword against heretics etc. is by divine right, that makes it dogma.
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I’m sorry to contradict, but in our terms, it does not.​

Tis, see above. That was why it was taught widely and practiced, until perfected…

IMHO I think it should be discussed, it is very much an RC thing and the reasoning behind such claims are still current. Your Church might not be in a position at the moment to use the sword physically at will against those who oppose it, but it still claims it has the divine right to do so. Take a look at Serbia’s recent history and your Church’s genocide of the Orthodox Serbs, adding Jews and Gypsies to that, and now it’s making the Archbishop Stepinac a Saint, insult to injury. And in five hundred years how many will remember that Stepinac was executing orders by divine right? Perhaps as many as now remember Josaphat was another of your butchers by divine right and not the Saint your PR department made him…?
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None if this makes a dogma out of a former practice of the Church.​

Your Church, your teaching, your laws, your practice. If you’d rather not think about it again then do something to change it, or your children’s children might be wishing they too didn’t have to think about it.
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I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Which is this: From time to time, Orthodox Christians make remarks about things done by Catholics. Remarks which are in part true. The problem is, they sound like accusations - as though you were saying that somehow, the deeds mentioned are in some way a uniquely RC failing. The problem is, that they are not. Worse still, this not something it is gracious (IMO) of certain non-RCs to mention, because they too have some nasty things in their pasts. So when you mention our failings, you are tempting us to respond in kind - and that sort of “atrocity-slinging”, IMO, has no place among Christians. Not from Catholics to Orthodox, nor from Orthodox to Catholics. Not at all, from any to any.​

How are we loving one another in the Love of Christ, Our common Saviour, if we dig up each other’s sins ? Can’t we leave that to the devil to do ? I think it is hideous that Christians cannot leave each other’s pasts alone. So for the love of God, please, let’s not do that. Let us build each up, instead of ripping each other to pieces.

That is why IMO we should leave the past and its hatreds behind. ##
 
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Myhrr:
Matthew 5:21
Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mark 10:19
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
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Myrhh,
in all the above verses the word translated as kill should actually be murder (from the Greek “fonevw” [w=omega]). I believe it is an important distinction.

John.
 
Myhrr
Quote:
IT sounds like even Father Ambrose an Orthodox priest is calling you out of your false assertions. I question your knowledge of the Orthdox faith young man.:tsktsk:
Where is he doing this?
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Just about every post he denies what your saying is true.
Do you read the valid post by others that war can be justified by the bible by tradition, or just do you simply like to write and read your own post? Everyone on this board disagreew with your post and is have presented a mountain of evidence against your molehill.
Like I said the ORthdox churchs has been invloved in wars herself
you seem to be overuling past authority on this issue. Have the Orthodx church changed teaching here? IF not I think you are in the wrong camp here. You are condoning Pacifism maybe you should join the local Witness hall or Quaker church they have a consistent history of pacifism not the ORthodox church.
 
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GrzeszDeL:
In a strictly non-professional capacity, of course. 😉
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Domine noster Iesu Christe te absolvit, et ego sacerdos indignus per auctoritas Christi te absolvo omnibus peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.

Just in case you were wondering what formula I would use upon you, Grz 🙂
 
Gottle of Geer:
I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Which is this: From time to time, Orthodox Christians make remarks about things done by Catholics. Remarks which are in part true. The problem is, they sound like accusations - as though you were saying that somehow, the deeds mentioned are in some way a uniquely RC failing. The problem is, that they are not. Worse still, this not something it is gracious (IMO) of certain non-RCs to mention, because they too have some nasty things in their pasts. So when you mention our failings, you are tempting us to respond in kind - and that sort of “atrocity-slinging”, IMO, has no place among Christians. Not from Catholics to Orthodox, nor from Orthodox to Catholics. Not at all, from any to any.
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How rare it is, Gottle, that I should agree so unreservedly with something that you wrote. I figured that this sort of occasion does not arise often, so I should seize the chance now to say “well said!”
 
Gottle of Geer said:
#

I think you may have missed the point I was trying to make. Which is this: From time to time, Orthodox Christians make remarks about things done by Catholics. Remarks which are in part true. The problem is, they sound like accusations - as though you were saying that somehow, the deeds mentioned are in some way a uniquely RC failing. The problem is, that they are not. Worse still, this not something it is gracious (IMO) of certain non-RCs to mention, because they too have some nasty things in their pasts. So when you mention our failings, you are tempting us to respond in kind - and that sort of “atrocity-slinging”, IMO, has no place among Christians. Not from Catholics to Orthodox, nor from Orthodox to Catholics. Not at all, from any to any.​

How are we loving one another in the Love of Christ, Our common Saviour, if we dig up each other’s sins ? Can’t we leave that to the devil to do ? I think it is hideous that Christians cannot leave each other’s pasts alone. So for the love of God, please, let’s not do that. Let us build each up, instead of ripping each other to pieces.

That is why IMO we should leave the past and its hatreds behind. ##
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👍 :clapping:

I’ll second that!

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=241857&postcount=2
 
Fr Ambrose said:
Domine noster Iesu Christe te absolvit, et ego sacerdos indignus per auctoritas Christi te absolvo omnibus peccatis tuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. Amen.
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Arrgh, I have been absolved by a schismatic. Does this mean that I am now excommunicate? On the other hand, maybe this is the opportunity I have been looking for to become Serbian Orthodox so that I can eat more Balkan strudel on Sundays. 😉

Incidentally, Father, by way of a niggling point, shouldn’t that be “Dominus,” not “Domine”? After all, one is not addressing the Lord at that point, one is simply stating that He has absolved. 😛
 
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jimmy:
So Myhrr, your admiting that the Orthodox church has changed?
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The martyrs pick up their own crosses and follow Jesus, martyr means witness. So no, the Church hasn’t changed we still have martyrs now, millions from Russia alone in the last century. It’s said that there were more martyrs in Russia at this time than all those counted from the beginning of Christianity. Picking up a sword is not an option here.
 
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