Saint Thomas More

[SCH]

Saint Thomas More write in Utopia: “Before marriage some grave matron presents the bride naked, whether she is a virgin or a widow, to the bridegroom; and after that some grave man presents the bridegroom naked to the bride.” (Book II).
Do you think that two Catholic young people can watch each another naked before getting married?

 

[bbentrup]

Saint Thomas More write in Utopia: “Before marriage some grave matron presents the bride naked, whether she is a virgin or a widow, to the bridegroom; and after that some grave man presents the bridegroom naked to the bride.” (Book II).
Do you think that two Catholic young people can watch each another naked before getting married?

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think you meant to add the words ‘without sinning’ to your question.

The answer is yes, they can. However, for most people the risk of lust is too great and this would never be condoned. But theoretically, say, hundreds of years ago, they were bathing in the wilderness at some lake/river and they had no clue the other were to be there. If filled with the Holy Spirit, I could imagine that they might see the other, rejoice in God’s goodness of creation, admire the beauty of the other, and praise God for his goodness, but I doubt such an encounter would be prolonged even by near-perfect saints on earth. More likely, such an encounter in this fallen world would lead to confusion, shame, and lust. These two hypothetical holy people would never deliberately set up such an arrangement before marriage.

So, in this fallen world, it is theoretically possible, practically impossible, and morally extremely dangerous. However, if More is talking about this happening in a true Utopia, he seems to understand Christian theology of the body very well. The body isn’t sinful, God made it very good. Please take all of this answer with the heavy grain of salt that I have not read the book. All glory to Jesus! Amen!

 

[Contarini]

Saint Thomas More write in Utopia: “Before marriage some grave matron presents the bride naked, whether she is a virgin or a widow, to the bridegroom; and after that some grave man presents the bridegroom naked to the bride.” (Book II).
Do you think that two Catholic young people can watch each another naked before getting married?

You can’t just read everything More describes in Utopia as a serious program for a Christian society. For one thing, the Utopians are not Christians but live according to natural law. For another, there are heavy elements of satire in the book and More distances himself from Hythloday by having Hythloday describe his trip to Utopia to “More” (the narrator of the frame story), who is rather skeptical about certain things (and even Hythloday thinks that the custom you mention is a silly one). Furthermore, the word “Hythloday” means “speaker of nonsense.” So scholars debate endlessly just what More’s intentions were in this book and which aspects of Utopia he really regarded as ideal. (Note that the word “utopia” when More originally coined it didn’t actually mean “ideal society” but “nowhere”–it’s a fantasy world which may or may not be regarded by More as genuinely ideal in all respects.)

Clearly More is trying to get us to think about how a society based on natural law would treat sex and marriage. His Utopians disapprove of premarital sex and punish it harshly (by forbidding the offenders ever to marry). I think that More is pushing his readers to distinguish between their conventional horror at the idea of unmarried people seeing each other naked and the real question of how a society is to promote stable, faithful, and happy marriages. He probably isn’t really suggesting that European societies should imitate this particular custom, but I suspect that he is trying to overcome our confusion between convention and virtue–a confusion which has caused immense damage in the past century, as many folks in our society have thrown off virtue along with convention. But that’s just my guess based in part on my own concerns with the society in which I live.

Edwin

 

[Bluegoat]

You can’t just read everything More describes in Utopia as a serious program for a Christian society. For one thing, the Utopians are not Christians but live according to natural law. For another, there are heavy elements of satire in the book and More distances himself from Hythloday by having Hythloday describe his trip to Utopia to “More” (the narrator of the frame story), who is rather skeptical about certain things (and even Hythloday thinks that the custom you mention is a silly one). Furthermore, the word “Hythloday” means “speaker of nonsense.” So scholars debate endlessly just what More’s intentions were in this book and which aspects of Utopia he really regarded as ideal. (Note that the word “utopia” when More originally coined it didn’t actually mean “ideal society” but “nowhere”–it’s a fantasy world which may or may not be regarded by More as genuinely ideal in all respects.)

Clearly More is trying to get us to think about how a society based on natural law would treat sex and marriage. His Utopians disapprove of premarital sex and punish it harshly (by forbidding the offenders ever to marry). I think that More is pushing his readers to distinguish between their conventional horror at the idea of unmarried people seeing each other naked and the real question of how a society is to promote stable, faithful, and happy marriages. He probably isn’t really suggesting that European societies should imitate this particular custom, but I suspect that he is trying to overcome our confusion between convention and virtue–a confusion which has caused immense damage in the past century, as many folks in our society have thrown off virtue along with convention. But that’s just my guess based in part on my own concerns with the society in which I live.

Edwin

I think this is a very reasonable analysis. It has been a long time since I read Utopia though, I should have a look at it again.

I also see the opposite happen, generally in reactionary circles - some on this web forum. Trying to regain a lost virtue, such as modesty, by trying to tie people to conventions of time and place.