Saint Thomas More's shocking and extremely coarse language!

[raumzeitmc2]

A few months back, I *documented *on this forum Luther’s use of foul language (not surprisingly, it wasn’t my most warmly received post. Again, I am very sorry if I offended anyone. And again, I want to emphasize: I’m only interested in documented historical facts, not silly sensationalism.).

Anyway, I was recently shocked to learn that St. Thomas More himself, also used much the same kind of foul language as did Luther!

In his Response to Luther, St. Thomas More resorted to - albeit very occasionally - the use of very unsaintly language!

Now I’ve heard it said that the use of such coarse language was somewhat justified on the basis of the times. But hmmm…somehow, I don’t find that very convincing. But I’d like to hear others opinions.

So friends (both Catholic or Protestant), what do you think; is anyone ever justified in using such foul language, even in the heat of controversy?

I’ve posted a sampling of More’ language below (you never know when something might disappear from Wikipedia!). The last two quotes are from the Wikipedia article on More, section on Religious polemics. The first quote I found after having just recently read More’s Responsio for myself.

But before going further, I’d like to emphasize the fact that, while More does indeed come down very strongly on Luther throughout this work, having now read the work for myself, I can honestly say that the vast majority of More’s words are nowhere near the egregious nature of the following. And yes, there are a few more rough statements, but again, they are the exception, not the rule.

Anyway, here goes…(Luther, of course, is the “scoundrel” to whom More refers).

Who would not laugh at the most wretched scoundrel blasting out such frenzied boasts, as though he reclined on the bosom of Christ, whereas he lies confined withing the arse-hole of the devil? Thence he farts and trumpets his splendid victories. – Responsio ad Lutherum, vol. 5, part I, p. 77

But meanwhile, for as long as your reverend paternity will be determined to tell these shameless lies, others will be permitted, on behalf of his English majesty, to throw back into your paternity’sh**tty mouth, truly the sht-pool of all sht, all the muck and sh*t which your damnable rottenness has vomited up, and to empty out all the sewers and privies onto your crown divested of the dignity of the priestly crown, against which no less than against the kingly crown you have determined to play the buffoon.

And again:

In your sense of fairness, honest reader, you will forgive me that the utterly filthy words of this scoundrel have forced me to answer such things, for which I should have begged your leave. Now I consider truer than truth that saying: ‘He who touches pitch will be wholly defiled by it’ (Sirach 13:1). For I am ashamed even of this necessity, that while I clean out the fellow’s sht-filled mouth I see my own fingers covered with sht.

The unfiltered version of these quotes, for anyone interested, can be found at Wikipedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_More#Religious_polemics

Finally, I was going to recommend everyone buy and read this very interesting and important work for himself, but as can be seen below, it’s a bit on the pricey side! Better probably to do what I did - just go to the library.

The Yale Edition of The Complete Works of St. Thomas More: Volume 5, Responsio ad Lutherum, John Headly, ed., Yale University Press (September 10, 1969), ISBN-10: 0300011237,ISBN-13: 978-0300011234

amazon.com/Yale-Complete-Works-Thomas-More/dp/0300011237

 

[Publisher]

Coarse, foul language is never justified…it’s very un-Quakerly

 

[cyberwolf001]

I adore this man! Married and what’s more sexually active in his marriage! (Sometimes it seems only those who take vows of celibacy even when married can make it as saints) An cusses like a sailor, truly a Saint of the layman!

Last I checked cussing was not a sin but was more of a prejudice of Protestant America.

 

[DaveBj]

I adore this man! Married and what’s more sexually active in his marriage! (Sometimes it seems only those who take vows of celibacy even when married can make it as saints) An cusses like a sailor, truly a Saint of the layman!

Last I checked cussing was not a sin but was more of a prejudice of Protestant America.

Agreed. It is a mistake to judge 16th-century discourse by 21st-century rules. Imagine if he were to look at us and judge our 21st-century dress by his 16th-century rules.

DaveBj

 

[Publisher]

About ten years ago I was once asked to give a talk at a men’s retreat…it was for “ex-clergy” mostly. It was a retreat on spirituality in the lives of clergy who left the ministry for one reason or another.

As I was speaking I got a little “excited” about the subject and I guess I said the word…“f**k”…or a derivitive thereof…I didn’t even realize it at the time…but I did notice those in the audience looking “shocked” and perplexed. I thought perhaps my zipper was down as no one would meet my eyes…and as I was trying to finish up…I thought to myself…“Did I say something?”

Afterwards the facilitator asked me to come to his ‘office’. He told me how ashamed of me he was and “We do not use language like that from the pulpit!” I asked him…“What did I say?”…He told me and I just stared at him…finally I said…“But I work with contractors!!! I’m in lighting and when I got excited I must have “slipped.” I haven’t really acted in a ministerial function for decades…I’ve been around electrical contractors for over 20 years!”

He was not amused…and I was never asked to return as a speaker.

I try to be very careful when I speak in public anymore…I pay attention to my language as it has been known to “get away from me.”

I do think however, as representatives of Christ in our world…our words should reflect our spirit and the One we serve…sometimes that harder than it sounds.

 

[Mirdath]

I don’t know about you guys, but I’m taking notes!

 

[Publisher]

I don’t know about you guys, but I’m taking notes!

LOL…I’d have like to read the notes from the meeting I spoke at!!

 

[Nino]

this reminds me of a kid saying " Mr.Smith…billy over there said a bad word he said “…” and so it goes…come now…Jesus Himself used terms like…‘you breed of vipers’ etc…an oath is an oath…a saint is many things…we,who believe in Jesus and Gods Ten Commandments are being called 'haters’by the new president…big deal! Yet,that is the foulest of all words for it puts one on the defensive rather then on the attack.re; hitting abortion on demand for example! Mores most hated comments were " I am the Kings good servent but God is first" that type of anti-state proclamation is more and more considered to be treason so lets get serious…it is fun tho is it not kids to put naughty words on the internet hey?

 

[Camron]

Actually, the Bible uses some very course language at times, so much so that if the authors of the Bible were being monitored on various forums (even perhaps here in some cases) their words would probably be censored and the authors of the Bible banned.

Sometimes I think we need to let go of this politically correct mindset and call a spade a spade.

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Well, ok, I see most folks are more amused than offended. That’s fine. To be quite honest, I myself had a bit of a laugh at the whole thing (you really gotta read this book!). So I’m not judging. After all, I think we should all be able to just step back and have a good laugh now and then at some of the ridiculous antics that often attend polemical debates.

And well I know that sometimes, some of us say things we know we know we shouldn’t (I’m as guilty as any on that score!).

But to be serious for a moment, let me ask - again: can there really be any justification - at least from a Biblical standpoint - for the use of this kind of vulgar language, especially in the context of theological debate??

I mean, otherwise, what are we to make of, to quote just one passage, the following?

“But now you must put them all away: anger, fury, malice, slander, and obscene language out of your mouths.” Colossians 3:8

Think about it.

 

[ralphinal]

I am going to go all Dante on you people.

Catholics historically are offended by the blasphemous. Protestants are offended by the vulgar.

Luther was Catholic in upbringing, as was More. Do you see any blasphemy in what they said? No. You see vulgarity. There is a difference.

 

[tundramom]

One time I was directing an Easter play for my A/G church. No one was listening to me and my head hurt, my throat was sore, basically I was in the middle of getting the flu.

I had the microphone and I said, “c’mon guys, I feel like— the four letter word that begins with a c and is a “mini” word for a bowel movement—” Well, I didn’t even know that was a huge no-no. I didn’t use the sh word! But I sure got a talking to by everyone there afterwords.

So I don’t say that word in public… or at least in a church when I have the microphone in my hand.

in Christ
Steph

 

[Mirdath]

Well, ok, I see most folks are more amused than offended.

I’m more impressed than amused.

But to be serious for a moment, let me ask - again: can there really be any justification - at least from a Biblical standpoint - for the use of this kind of vulgar language, especially in the context of theological debate??

Biblical? Probably – others have pointed out Jesus’ catalog of insults (something along the lines of hypocrites hypocrites hypocrites hypocrites fools hypocrites hypocrites hypocrites blind guides hypocrites hypocrites hypocrites vipers hypocrites hypocrites serpents hypocrites hypocrites invisible graves hypocrites). Beyond that, there can be a point in a debate at which it is no longer a debate, a point at which one realizes the hopelessness of attempting to continue any sort of dialogue as all overtures will be ignored, rejected, intentionally misinterpreted, or otherwise spurned and scorned, that the only thing left to say is some variation on the theme of ‘up yours, you vile little tumor on the corpse of humanity, go wallow in your own feces’ – or words to that effect

(me pointing this out – the ironing is delicious!)

 

[Peter_J]

A few months back, I *documented *on this forum Luther’s use of foul language (not surprisingly, it wasn’t my most warmly received post. Again, I am very sorry if I offended anyone. And again, I want to emphasize: I’m only interested in documented historical facts, not silly sensationalism.).

Thanks for the link, I hadn’t seen the post you refer to. (For some reason, when the thread titled “Protestants: Doesn’t it bother you that your religion is of man-made origin?” was started, I decided not to read it. How silly of me. )

Anyway, I was recently shocked to learn that St. Thomas More himself, also used much the same kind of foul language as did Luther!

Yes, that comes as a bit of a surprise to me to.

 

[LilyM]

Yes, that comes as a bit of a surprise to me to.

Why? We read of St Bernadette sometimes telling rude jokes, and St Padre Pio giving at least a few people a physical slapdown.

A saint isn’t someone who never does wrong, a saint is someone who falls into sin seven times a day like the rest of us, but gets up again EACH of those seven times EVERY day!

 

[Ridgerunner]

More was a lawyer, not a clergyman. If you have ever heard lawyers cuss, it’s almost an art form. Sailors could take lessons.

I don’t think a thing of it.

 

[graceandglory]

I am going to go all Dante on you people.

**Catholics historically are offended by the blasphemous. Protestants are offended by the vulgar.
**
Luther was Catholic in upbringing, as was More. Do you see any blasphemy in what they said? No. You see vulgarity. There is a difference.

Please go on…

 

[porthos11]

Yay!!! I can cuss!

This requires a whole change to CAF policy! Arse-hole should no longer be censored.

 

[graceandglory]

I’m guessing this will be edited, i’ve never cussed in a forum, so i don’t know what will happen.

At a Protestant version of woodstock, back in 1985, Christian speaker and author Tony Campolo said something most interesting to the audience of 20,000 that I was a part of.

I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a sh**. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said sh** than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
thinkexist.com/quotes/tony_campolo/

 

[Camron]

I’m guessing this will be edited, i’ve never cussed in a forum, so i don’t know what will happen.

At a Protestant version of woodstock, back in 1985, Christian speaker and author Tony Campolo said something most interesting to the audience of 20,000 that I was a part of.
I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a sh**. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said sh** than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”

Exactly.

Now let’s take a look at Ezekiel 23:19-21 for a moment…

Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

This isn’t a very nice picture being presented here…and this is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit too.

And, by the way, here’s another little friendly quote from Paul himself in Galatians 5:12…

As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

He’s talking about those who say one needs circumcision to find salvation by the way.