Saint Thomas More's shocking and extremely coarse language!

[raumzeitmc2]

Yes, I agree that Luther was scurrilous even by the standards of the 16th century. Not everyone was equally so. More and Luther were two striking examples, though in part they are well known because they were so good at it.

Masters I’d say! But after all, practice does make perfect! LOL

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

From the King James Bible of 1611:

1 Samuel 25:22​

So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1 Samuel 25:34​

For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.

1 Kings 14:10​

Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone.

1 Kings 16:11​

And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends.

1 Kings 21:21​

Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel,

2 Kings 9:8​

For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel:

2 Kings 18:27​

But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own **** with you?

Isaiah 36:12​

But Rabshakeh said, Hath my master sent me to thy master and to thee to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit upon the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own **** with you?

This is calling a spade a spade - it’s not “bad language”. The OT does include the use of euphemisms - e.g. “Saul went in to cover his feet” (1 Sam 28 IIRC; & see also Deuteronomy 23); yet most of the euphemisms seem to be concerned not with bodily functions but with the names of gods. “Ishbaal”, “man of the god Baal” becomes “Ishbosheth”, man of shame"; & “-bosheth” seems to have been chosen because it incorporates the vowels of “shomem”, “excrement”, which is elsewhere a distortion of “shamem” - “Lord of Heaven” to “Lord of excrement” is quite a degradation. Not all polemical alterations of god-names are lavatorial - “Rimmon” in 2 Kings 5 is a distortion of “Ramman”, “Thunderer”, a title of the storm-god Baal Hadad; its effectiveness as a mean of reducing Baal depends on the fact that “rimmon” in Hebrew = “pomegranate”. ​

It seems that in the OT god-names included in personal names quite often survive little altered, if at all. The OT authors could be very insulting, without indulging in “coarse” language.

 

[Peter_J]

And Chaucer? “And Nicholas let fly a f–t, as loud as if it was a thunderclap.” “A woman with a mustache?” Etc., etc.

I don’t think I’ve heard those lines since my 10th grade English class, but they still ring a bell. (If I remember the tale right, the “mustache” line came before the other.)

 

[Peter_J]

One of my personal favorite examples of this being carried too far was in England, I think in the Victorian age. Pianos had skirts lest their legs showed. Same with other furnature. i mean come on people.

That’s definitely one of my favorite historical facts.

 

[LilyM]

I don’t think I’ve heard those lines since my 10th grade English class, but they still ring a bell. (If I remember the tale right, the “mustache” line came before the other.)

Oh there’s far worse than that in Chaucer! ‘Nicholas has kissed her nether eye (backside)’. Chaucer, though, is far worse in his content even than in his language - lots of adultery, thievery, and all sorts of shenanigans going on!

 

[Ghoti]

That’s definitely one of my favorite historical facts.

That was also the era that gave us the little “pants” on chicken legs and rack of lamb. Rumour has it, tho’, that Queen Victoria was somewhat less than Victorian when in private in her close circle.

Most Quebecois profanity, IIRC, deals with religion – the words for Christ, Host, chalice, and tabernacle being the ones I’ve heard most often flung about (and often all four in one four-round burst).

Some vulgar trivia: the “S”-word for excrement still exists in its older form (Old English scit) in such words as cheapskate and blatherskite. So I have sometimes averred that someone was full of skite, and let them work it out.* Petcock has an infamous etymology (though not from the syllable you’d expect) – it comes from the French peter, to, umm, pass gas. It also gives us the word petard, as in the object you might get hoist by. Bum apparently is a “cute” euphemism for the derriere on this side of the pond, but apparently is rather impolite on 'tother – and be warned, Britons do not wear “fanny packs”.

Historically, too, some words now considered to be various levels of taboo were used openly in poetry and literature. My mind is drawn to the poem, “Sumer Is Icumen In” (“Summer Has Come In”). Amidst the beautiful pastoral imagery – “Lhude sing cuccu!/Groweþ sed and bloweþ med/And springþ þe wde nu” (Loudly sing, cuckoo! The seed grows and the meadow blooms/And the wood springs anew") – comes the idyllic line, “Bulluc sterteþ, bucke uerteþ,” or “The bullock stirs; the buck, umm, passes gas.”

*Idiomatically.

 

[Ghoti]

There is a “local” bit of mild profanity back in Nfld – I’m not sure where it derived from, but it comes out, in its politest form, as “By d’Lard Liftin’ T’underin’ Dyin’s!” (Dialectic, “By The Lord Lifting Thundering Dying”). I’m not sure why “Lifting” is in there, nor why “Dying” is rendered with an “s” at the end. It is often abbreviated “Lard T’underin’” or “Lard Dyin’s”.

 

[Ghoti]

Apparently “Response to Luther” has been re-issued for younger, more modern readers:

“Martin, You Big Poopy-Head!”

 

[rubycanoe]

I do not think arse hole and sheeet are shocking and exremely coarse language.

 

[MrStain]

That is too funny! I’m going to share this one with others.

 

[Peter_J]

That was also the era that gave us the little “pants” on chicken legs and rack of lamb.

Interesting! I knew about the pants on piano legs, but I don’t think I ever heard about them on chicken legs. I wonder what they did for the live chickens?

BTW, the history of bathing costumes is also very interesting. For example, 70 or so years ago, men couldn’t wear topless bathing suits at public beaches, but had to be naked to go in YMCA swimming pools. (Incidentally, I believe women wore bathing suits for the YWCA swimming pools, even back then.)

 

[ralphinal]

Fe, Fie, Foe and Fum are blasphemous curses that are now part of a fairy tail.

And just between us, don’t nothing get me into sinful thoughts like a end-table leg with a naked chicken leg on the table

 

[SedesDomi]

I am going to go all Dante on you people.

Catholics historically are offended by the blasphemous. Protestants are offended by the vulgar.

And Southerners are offended by neither.

 

[ralphinal]

And Southerners are offended by neither.

Amen to that.

When I was a kid, I thought Jesus’s last name was Christ, son of Mary and Joseph Christ. That was one thing.

For some reason I thought his middle name was Harold. And he had a pogo stick

 

[Camron]

Apparently “Response to Luther” has been re-issued for younger, more modern readers:

“Martin, You Big Poopy-Head!”

 

[raumzeitmc2]

Why? We read of St Bernadette sometimes telling rude jokes, and St Padre Pio giving at least a few people a physical slapdown.

I haven’t been able to find a single instance, so far, of St. Bernadette ever telling anyone a “rude” joke. Can anyone document this??

Also, I know that Padre Pio could, at times, be a bit gruff, but giving people a “slapdown”???

---

[Priests and Bishops] justly, therefore, are they called not only Angels, but even gods, because of the fact that they exercise in our midst the power and prerogatives of the immortal God.

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Holy Orders, Part II, ch. 7, section 2.

In Latin:

Quare merito non solum Angeli, sed Dii etiam, quod Dei immortalis, vim et numen apud nos teneant, appellantur.

Catech. Concil. Trident. De Ordinis Sacramento, pars ii, cap. Vii, sec. 2.

For this is the Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. For it is as man that He is the Mediator and the Way.

Augustine, - The City of God (Book XI), 2.
newadvent.org/fathers/120111.htm

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes, I agree that Luther was scurrilous even by the standards of the 16th century. Not everyone was equally so. More and Luther were two striking examples, though in part they are well known because they were so good at it. Generally the Reformed were more refined in their insults. And the Reformed (like Bullinger) made much of Luther’s scurrility because their narrative (at least after 1529-30, more or less) was that Lutherans and Reformed really didn’t have that much separating them, but that Luther created division through his intemperate language and overly dogmatic beliefs. (Chief among which was his insistence on the bodily presence of Christ in the Eucharist.) They needed to say this in order to create a common front and claim Luther as a founding figure while explaining the fact that he refused to accept them as orthodox.

That doesn’t mean that Bullinger didn’t have some good points. But he certainly had polemical reasons for making this particular argument about Luther. And generally in the 16th century the kind of language people used reflected the kind of rhetorical point they were trying to make. Not that personality didn’t affect their rhetoric, of course. But modern people tend to jump to psychological explanations over against social and rhetorical ones (or did until recent years, with the rise of “new historicism” and other similar movements). This is arguably a defect in Edwards. At least, Heiko Oberman argued that Edwards’ interpretation of the “old Luther’s” scurrilous language ignored the presence of this language in the young Luther as well and the fact that this language served a rhetorical purpose.

Edwin

Calvin calls his opponents “dogs” on occasion - unfortunately, he had NT warrant for that sort of language. But he is restrained compared to More, Eck or Luther. Chrysostom’s attacks on the Jews have been defended as influenced by rhetorical conventions: maybe, but even if they were, how does that make them worthy of a holy man ? Saints, surely, are supposed to be saintly. The NT has quite a lot to say about infirmities of the tongue. A holy man who used “blue” language today, would probably not be regarded as holy for long: did notions of what constituted Christian holiness allow for the notion of a foul-mouthed Saint - or not ?​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oh there’s far worse than that in Chaucer! ‘Nicholas has kissed her nether eye (backside)’. Chaucer, though, is far worse in his content even than in his language - lots of adultery, thievery, and all sorts of shenanigans going on!

Not forgetting:​

• [queynte (queynte)

 

[LilyM]

I haven’t been able to find a single instance, so far, of St. Bernadette ever telling anyone a “rude” joke. Can anyone document this??

I’m afraid my knowledge is secondhand, but she apparently discusses it herself in her writings - she left letters and journals. There are several collections of these available - don’t know which one(s) it would be in.

Also, I know that Padre Pio could, at times, be a bit gruff, but giving people a “slapdown”???

Oh yes, I may have even heard this story from an EWTN series about him - someone who went to confession (I think) hid a mortal sin from him, and got a slap across the face. Not undeserved, I suppose

 

[raumzeitmc2]

I’m afraid my knowledge is secondhand, but [St. Bernadette] apparently discusses it herself in her writings - she left letters and journals. There are several collections of these available - don’t know which one(s) it would be in.

Not to worry, I’ll just keep checking around.

But I must say that I find it hard to believe that St. Bernadette, of all people - that innocent child, that chosen vessel of God! - should give herself to the telling of ‘rude’ jokes - of any kind, under any kind of circumstances! Quite frankly, I find such a notion rather abhorrent.

Vulgarity, triviality and the like are bad enough in the “average” person, but how utterly out of place, how utterly unbecoming are they in a Bernadette for example, with whom, we believe, the Most Blessed Virgin regularly conversed!!

Oh yes, I may have even heard this story from an EWTN series about him [Padre Pio] - someone who went to confession (I think) hid a mortal sin from him, and got a slap across the face. Not undeserved, I suppose

You’re right! Padre Pio did indeed give certain individuals “a slap in the face” during his lifetime - but never without very good reason! And knowing what I do of Padre Pio, I would rather imagine it was a very gentle “slap” at most, one that certainly did no harm, and undoubtedly even some much needed good!

books.google.com/books?id=PrL16pJjfCEC&pg=PA83&dq=%22padre+pio%22+slapped+face&lr=&client=firefox

---

Sayings of Padre Pio:

Have you not for some time loved the Lord? Do you not love Him now? Do you not long to love Him forever? Therefore: Do not fear! Even conceded that you had committed all the sins of this world, Jesus repeats to you: Many sins are forgiven you because you have loved much! p. 11.

The pivot of perfection is charity; he who lives in charity lives in God, because God is charity, as the Apostles says. p. 12.

Walk in the way of the Lord with simplicity and do not torment your spirit. You must hate your defects, but with a tranquil hate, not troublesome and restless. p. 15.

*The ardent desire to be in eternal peace is good and holy. But it is necessary to moderate it by a complete resignation ot the Divine Will. It is better to do the Divine Will on earth than to enjoy heaven. To suffer and not to die was the motto of St. Therese. Purgatory is sweet when one suffers for the love of God. *p. 17.

Padre Pio Counsels, edited by Fr. Alessio Parente, (pamphlet, 36 pages.), Our Lady of Grace Capuchin Friary, 71013 San Giovanni Rotondo, Foggia, Italy, 1984.