Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

[adstrinity]

There’s nothing about this post that wont sound inflamatory.

How does the East (OO/EO) Canonize saints? In the west, modernly, one has to wait x number of years before they can be nominated and it goes in steps from there. It must be proven that the Saint has performed two miracles posthumously. How is it done in the East? Is it less formal? Can one patriarch know that a Saint is in Heaven or do they all have to know (of the non Bishop of Rome Patriarchs)?

Another poster a while ago said that the East views sin more as a disease with God as a Doctor and the West views sin more as a crime with God as a Judge. Both are needed in society, but, the Churches of the East’s members aren’t so concerned about, “Will I die in sin/Am I going to Hell,” because they are more focused on God’s Love.
–Knowing this, how come the OO/EO all fast and say the Jesus Prayer? You’re mortifying your body and asking God for mercy but why? Is it part of the diagnosis/treatment of the disease trying to be cured?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi,

I won’t try to answer your question (I’m not Orthodox) but I’d like to “nit-pick” a little: namely, to point out that “the East” includes Eastern Catholics as well as EO and OO. (And conversely of course the description “Western” applies to some Orthodox and as well Catholics and Protestants.)

 

[Matariel]

Hi,

I won’t try to answer your question (I’m not Orthodox) but I’d like to “nit-pick” a little: namely, to point out that “the East” includes Eastern Catholics as well as EO and OO. (And conversely of course the description “Western” applies to some Orthodox and as well Catholics and Protestants.)

Don’t forget Anglicans too.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Don’t forget Anglicans too.

I don’t mean to be inflammatory here, but Anglicans are Protestants.

 

[adstrinity]

Hi,

I won’t try to answer your question (I’m not Orthodox) but I’d like to “nit-pick” a little: namely, to point out that “the East” includes Eastern Catholics as well as EO and OO. (And conversely of course the description “Western” applies to some Orthodox and as well Catholics and Protestants.)

Yes, but, the Eastern Catholics are under the Bishop of Rome, yes? I know how Rome canonizes people. I don’t know how the OO and EO do it or some seperate but equal process. The Protestants don’t canonize people because we know that God doesn’t give any of their churches the knowledge of who is in Heaven. This was in the Eatern Catholic Folder but was moved.

 

[Peter_J]

Don’t forget Anglicans too.

Didn’t mean to forget them.

Sometimes I say “Anglicans and Protestants”, and other times I just include Anglicans in the general “Protestant” category.

 

[Peter_J]

Yes, but, the Eastern Catholics are under the Bishop of Rome, yes? I know how Rome canonizes people. I don’t know how the OO and EO do it or some seperate but equal process. The Protestants don’t canonize people because we know that God doesn’t give any of their churches the knowledge of who is in Heaven. This was in the Eatern Catholic Folder but was moved.

Ah … Well as I said, it was really a nit-pick.

 

[StMarina303ad]

There’s nothing about this post that wont sound inflamatory.

How does the East (OO/EO) Canonize saints? In the west, modernly, one has to wait x number of years before they can be nominated and it goes in steps from there. It must be proven that the Saint has performed two miracles posthumously. How is it done in the East? Is it less formal? Can one patriarch know that a Saint is in Heaven or do they all have to know (of the non Bishop of Rome Patriarchs)?

Another poster a while ago said that the East views sin more as a disease with God as a Doctor and the West views sin more as a crime with God as a Judge. Both are needed in society, but, the Churches of the East’s members aren’t so concerned about, “Will I die in sin/Am I going to Hell,” because they are more focused on God’s Love.
–Knowing this, how come the OO/EO all fast and say the Jesus Prayer? You’re mortifying your body and asking God for mercy but why? Is it part of the diagnosis/treatment of the disease trying to be cured?

Thank you in advance.

Your first start would be to have an Orthodox person explain to you our beliefs of Life After Death. They are different than the Catholic and Protestant view.

I will be very brief because I have to leave 5 minutes ago aka I’m late!

The Orthodox Christians believe that after death we will be in Abraham’s Bosom so to speak, just as Jesus described it to us as written in the New Testament.

Those who will eventually go to a place of suffering will begin to experience hell and those who will eventually go to heaven will begin to experience the love and peace but neither will experience either fully because: 1. the final judgement hasn’t happened yet and 2. we don’t have our resurrected bodies yet.
Once the final judgement happens and we receive our resurrected bodies we will then enter for all eternity where we have chosen to go (by our acceptance or rejection of Christ as the way we lived our life’s proved our choice).

The Theotokos was taken bodily into Heaven after her repose because she is the only human being, besides Christ, to live her entire life without sinning. The rest of us have to wait for Judgement. There is, before the resurrection, the great divide which we cannot cross over. However, just as Jesus explained we will be able to see them and they will be able to see us.

The moment our souls leave our bodies at our repose we will be with our guardian angel and the angel will attempt to take us to the place of peace; however, the demons who tempted us and encouraged our sinful passions will try to stop us accusing us of the sins of our past as well as make up sins we didn’t do to try to take us to the place of suffering. Based on how we lived our lives and how we trust in God great mercy will depend on whether we make it through our accusers to the place of peaceful waiting for the last Judgement or not.

I hope this helps a little in understanding that there are no Saints in Heaven at this time because the Resurrection hasn’t happened yet. We, Orthodox, know who the Saints are based on the miracles that happen and their intercession after death as well as how they lived their lives and how their lives ended (example: Martyrs).

I guess if the Catholic definition of a Saint is that they are physically in Heaven now, then they don’t have a Traditional understanding of the word as the Orthodox do Agios mean Holy.

I will leave this for another Orthodox Christian to pick up and do a much better job of explaining than I’ve been able to do in my rush!

Peace

 

[Nicholas82]

The moment our souls leave our bodies at our repose we will be with our guardian angel and the angel will attempt to take us to the place of peace; however, the demons who tempted us and encouraged our sinful passions will try to stop us accusing us of the sins of our past as well as make up sins we didn’t do to try to take us to the place of suffering. Based on how we lived our lives and how we trust in God great mercy will depend on whether we make it through our accusers to the place of peaceful waiting for the last Judgement or not.

Very nice post, however I would just like to point out this paragraph is describing the aerial toll houses, a concept I and many Orthodox do not accept.

 

[Peter_J]

StMarina303ad and Nicholas82,

Would it be appropriate to describe this as “private revelation”, rather than doctrine?

There have been similar things among Catholics – mystics describing visions of heaven and/or hell.

 

[Matariel]

I don’t mean to be inflammatory here, but Anglicans are Protestants.

Not Traditional Anglicans with Apostolic Succession and traditional Christian understanding and Sacraments, including the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist.

 

[vocatio]

Very interesting St. Marina…had you applied yourself to Catholicism like you do with your new faith Orhtodoxy you might have actually learned your original faith of birth much better and with less resistance.

A simple Catholic explanation between Orhtodoxy and Catholicism [Latin] is that Orthodox are more in tune with the experience of God…where as Catholics are more inclined to congnitive aspects. This is not a mental challenge as some would try to reduce it to. This is more of how one perceives God. Catholics get into explaining things much more than Orhtodox. orhtodox prefer to leave much to mystery where as Latin Catholics love to try to explain it. I’m sure someone else could do a much better job at what I’m trying to say. I seriously considered converting to Orhtodoxy in the beginning, but after much testing I finally concede that I was Latin Catholic and the priesthood is closed to me now. Sometimes pride gets in our way of understand truth. Primacy is an issue to me now… I finally accept it.

 

[Matariel]

…
I guess if the Catholic definition of a Saint is that they are physically in Heaven now, then they don’t have a Traditional understanding of the word as the Orthodox do Agios mean Holy.
…

Oh no, Catholics certainly do not believe that, only Mary and Christ are* physically *in Heaven with glorified bodies. The saints and bodiless angels are as blessed spirits.

 

[josephdaniel29]

StMarina303ad and Nicholas82,

Would it be appropriate to describe this as “private revelation”, rather than doctrine?

There have been similar things among Catholics – mystics describing visions of heaven and/or hell.

If I am correct that is exactly where the idea of aerial toll houses came from, a vision by a monk.

Yours in Christ
Joe

 

[LDNCatholic]

Not Traditional Anglicans with Apostolic Succession and traditional Christian understanding and Sacraments, including the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Eucharist.

In the Churches eyes, all of Harry number 8’s boys are Protestants.

 

[bpbasilphx]

This excerpt from Fr. Michael Pomazansky’s book ORTHODOX DOGMATIC THEOLOGY should explain things:

intratext.com/IXT/ENG0824/_P2Q.HTM

There will be several pages besides this one, so be sure to click the link for NEXT at the bottom of each page.

 

[Fuerza]

Your first start would be to have an Orthodox person explain to you our beliefs of Life After Death. They are different than the Catholic and Protestant view.

I will be very brief because I have to leave 5 minutes ago aka I’m late!

The Orthodox Christians believe that after death we will be in Abraham’s Bosom so to speak, just as Jesus described it to us as written in the New Testament.

Those who will eventually go to a place of suffering will begin to experience hell and those who will eventually go to heaven will begin to experience the love and peace but neither will experience either fully because: 1. the final judgement hasn’t happened yet and 2. we don’t have our resurrected bodies yet.
Once the final judgement happens and we receive our resurrected bodies we will then enter for all eternity where we have chosen to go (by our acceptance or rejection of Christ as the way we lived our life’s proved our choice).

The Theotokos was taken bodily into Heaven after her repose because she is the only human being, besides Christ, to live her entire life without sinning. The rest of us have to wait for Judgement. There is, before the resurrection, the great divide which we cannot cross over. However, just as Jesus explained we will be able to see them and they will be able to see us.

You first say that Orthodox and Catholic views of the afterlife are different, then you go on to (unintentionally, I assume) state the Catholic view of the afterlife. We don’t believe in the toll houses as you go on to describe, but then again neither do most Orthodox.

The only differences in our afterlife views concern Orthodox prayers to release a person from hell (before the final judgement)as opposed to Catholic prayers for those undergoing purification. Even though most Orthodox don’t seem to accept it, those two ideas can be reconciled once differences in cultural expression and emphasis are taken into consideration.

 

[Peter_J]

In the Churches eyes, all of Harry number 8’s boys are Protestants.

Source?

 

[Mickey]

Even though most Orthodox don’t seem to accept it, those two ideas can be reconciled once differences in cultural expression and emphasis are taken into consideration.

I am not so sure Eric. Holy Orthodox cannot get past the Latin idea of “a third place/state”.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Very nice post, however I would just like to point out this paragraph is describing the aerial toll houses, a concept I and many Orthodox do not accept.

It’s what the Church Fathers have taught for centuries.