Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

[StMarina303ad]

StMarina303ad and Nicholas82,

Would it be appropriate to describe this as “private revelation”, rather than doctrine?

There have been similar things among Catholics – mystics describing visions of heaven and/or hell.

Jesus words to us in the New Testament are hardly “private revelation”.

 

[LDNCatholic]

Source?

You want a source for the English Reformation?

 

[StMarina303ad]

Very interesting St. Marina…had you applied yourself to Catholicism like you do with your new faith Orhtodoxy you might have actually learned your original faith of birth much better and with less resistance.

To suggest I didn’t apply myself is rude. You don’t know me or what I was like as a Catholic, so I will fill you in. I attended Mass daily - usually twice a day although sometimes 3 times. Went to adoration almost daily. Read the CCC. Read the CCL. Studied the Early Church Fathers. (which is how I came across Orthodoxy in the first place). Etc. If I wasn’t applying myself. I don’t know how I could have applied myself. Goodness.

I studied specifically the differences between Orthodox and Catholic Theology for 7 years before becoming Orthodox. Our family has now been Orthodox for over 7 years. We are not “new” to Orthodoxy.

I can tell you that I have never felt more fulfilled spiritually that I have over the last 7 years of attending Divine Liturgy weekly as compared to attending daily Mass twice a day.

Granted for the last 7 years I haven’t read much of the CCC or other official Roman Catholic documents, so my memory is admittedly hazy as to be able to quote Catholic sources. Perhaps that is what you are confusing for me not applying myself as a Catholic.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Oh no, Catholics certainly do not believe that, only Mary and Christ are* physically *in Heaven with glorified bodies. The saints and bodiless angels are as blessed spirits.

You are correct. I chose the wrong word. Catholics believe that the souls of the “Saints” are located in Heaven. This is different that what the Early Church taught. This is different that Orthodoxy. This different that what Jesus explained to us in regards to life after death as is recorded in the New Testament.

 

[Mickey]

I attended Mass daily - usually twice a day although sometimes 3 times. Went to adoration almost daily. Read the CCC. Read the CCL. Studied the Early Church Fathers. (which is how I came across Orthodoxy in the first place). Etc. If I wasn’t applying myself. I don’t know how I could have applied myself. Goodness.

I studied specifically the differences between Orthodox and Catholic Theology for 7 years before becoming Orthodox. Our family has now been Orthodox for over 7 years. We are not “new” to Orthodoxy.

I can tell you that I have never felt more fulfilled spiritually that I have over the last 7 years of attending Divine Liturgy weekly as compared to attending daily Mass twice a day.

Granted for the last 7 years I haven’t read much of the CCC or other official Roman Catholic documents, so my memory is admittedly hazy as to be able to quote Catholic sources. Perhaps that is what you are confusing for me not applying myself as a Catholic.

Your situation is very similar to mine–except me and my family entered Holy Orthodoxy last year. We are very glad we did.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[StMarina303ad]

You first say that Orthodox and Catholic views of the afterlife are different, then you go on to (unintentionally, I assume) state the Catholic view of the afterlife. We don’t believe in the toll houses as you go on to describe, but then again neither do most Orthodox.

The only differences in our afterlife views concern Orthodox prayers to release a person from hell (before the final judgement)as opposed to Catholic prayers for those undergoing purification. Even though most Orthodox don’t seem to accept it, those two ideas can be reconciled once differences in cultural expression and emphasis are taken into consideration.

I’m not sure how you got the impression that I was giving a Catholic view of the afterlife. I was giving the Orthodox view as indicated in what I wrote in a hurry.

As far as the term “toll house” you are correct that some Orthodox, such as myself, do not use that term; however, the spiritual reality of what I described is what Orthodox Saints and Monastics and Icongraphy for centuries have taught. To-date in the last 14 years, I’ve not come across any Orthodox writing that does not describe life after death in that manner. One of the most common Icons I see, I own and have in my own Icon Corner at home and see on the cover of books (I work at a Catholic bookstore and I’ve seen in Catholic books also) and in others homes and in churches is the Icon with a ladder (the Divine Ladder) on which people are walking up towards Christ and the demons are trying to pull them down to the pits of hell - some they are able and others are released from their grasp and make it to Christ.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Your situation is very similar to mine–except me and my family entered Holy Orthodoxy last year. We are very glad we did.

Blessings,
Mickey

Welcome home Mickey! :bounce: Your family will never regret it!

What spiritual benefits from your decision have you noticed/experienced thus far?

 

[Mickey]

Welcome home Mickey! :bounce: Your family will never regret it!

Thank you. We are happy to be home.

What spiritual benefits from your decision have you noticed/experienced thus far?

A wonderful spiritual father.

A great sense of peace and contentment.

A true sense of connection to the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church–the Holy Orthodox Church.

I was also recruited for the choir–it is a challenge–but a real honour to chant the Divine Liturgy as a choir member every week.

 

[Mickey]

One of the most common Icons I see, I own and have in my own Icon Corner at home and see on the cover of books (I work at a Catholic bookstore and I’ve seen in Catholic books also) and in others homes and in churches is the Icon with a ladder (the Divine Ladder) on which people are walking up towards Christ and the demons are trying to pull them down to the pits of hell - some they are able and others are released from their grasp and make it to Christ.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent–St John Climacus!

 

[Matariel]

To suggest I didn’t apply myself is rude. You don’t know me or what I was like as a Catholic, so I will fill you in. I attended Mass daily - usually twice a day although sometimes 3 times. Went to adoration almost daily. Read the CCC. Read the CCL. Studied the Early Church Fathers. (which is how I came across Orthodoxy in the first place). Etc. If I wasn’t applying myself. I don’t know how I could have applied myself. Goodness.

I studied specifically the differences between Orthodox and Catholic Theology for 7 years before becoming Orthodox. Our family has now been Orthodox for over 7 years. We are not “new” to Orthodoxy.

I can tell you that I have never felt more fulfilled spiritually that I have over the last 7 years of attending Divine Liturgy weekly as compared to attending daily Mass twice a day.

Granted for the last 7 years I haven’t read much of the CCC or other official Roman Catholic documents, so my memory is admittedly hazy as to be able to quote Catholic sources. Perhaps that is what you are confusing for me not applying myself as a Catholic.

I’m not fully decided yet whether I am becoming Catholic or Orthodox. But I can’t seem to get over the Petrine Supremacy of the Pope, and that makes me want to become Catholic. But I also like Orthodox mysticism. But I also find the highly-polished moral law of the Catholic Church very helpful, whereas, it seems they are several opinions about certain important subjects in Orthodoxy. Also, I like the beautiful 3-dimensional statuary and crucifixes in Catholic churches (Although I know this is not a good stand-alone reason). Icons are nice, but I can’t really relate to them that well.

So I’m undecided, and the main thing is the fact that the Pope is the successor to St. Peter, and that a lot of saints (even Eastern saints!) wrote about his supreme authority.

 

[StMarina303ad]

So I’m undecided, and the main thing is the fact that the Pope is the successor to St. Peter,

The Pope is a successor to St. Peter, but not the only successor of St. Peter.

Remember that St. Peter first established a Church in Alexandria and stayed from 45 to 53 ad before meeting St. Paul in Rome and starting a Church there a couple of years before they were both martyred.

The Patriarch of Antioch is a valid successor of St. Peter and his Patriarchate is still around today. It is an Orthodox Patriarchate.

The very first person to be a successor to St. Peter is St. Eudoius in 53 ad in Alexandria.

If you want to follow St. Peter, you can do that by joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

 

[Mickey]

If you want to follow St. Peter, you can do that by joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

 

[Matariel]

The Pope is a successor to St. Peter, but not the only successor of St. Peter.

Remember that St. Peter first established a Church in Alexandria and stayed from 45 to 53 ad before meeting St. Paul in Rome and starting a Church there a couple of years before they were both martyred.

The Patriarch of Antioch is a valid successor of St. Peter and his Patriarchate is still around today. It is an Orthodox Patriarchate.

The very first person to be a successor to St. Peter is St. Eudoius in 53 ad in Alexandria.

If you want to follow St. Peter, you can do that by joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Um… but the Alexandrian See was started by St. Mark. The Coptic Pope is the successor of St. Mark.

And, doesn’t the Roman Pope have authority over… wait, never mind, going off subject.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Um… but the Alexandrian See was started by St. Mark. The Coptic Pope is the successor of St. Mark.

And, doesn’t the Roman Pope have authority over… wait, never mind, going off subject.

Yep, that’s exactly what I said - St. Mark founded the Church in Alexandria which is the Coptic Church in which the Patriarch is called Pope.

And no, of course the Roman Pope has no authority over another Patriarch. The Roman Pope only has juridiction over the his own Church. As history proves.

 

[chrisb]

The Pope is a successor to St. Peter, but not the only successor of St. Peter.

Remember that St. Peter first established a Church in Alexandria and stayed from 45 to 53 ad before meeting St. Paul in Rome and starting a Church there a couple of years before they were both martyred.

The Patriarch of Antioch is a valid successor of St. Peter and his Patriarchate is still around today. It is an Orthodox Patriarchate.

The very first person to be a successor to St. Peter is St. Eudoius in 53 ad in Alexandria.

If you want to follow St. Peter, you can do that by joining the Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Grace and Peace,

This makes sense if we are to assume the succession of St. Peter is established by what Sees he started.

As I understand it, this is not what made the Primacy of Peter uniquely present in Rome as opposed to Antioch. It is the fact that the Glorified Remains of St. Peter reside in Rome and so, in a certain sense, St. Peter’s glory continues to reside in Rome. The very early Church held the Relics of Sts. Peter and Paul to be present in Rome and thus their glorified bodies continued to sanctify the See of Rome. This isn’t simply about the ‘establishment’ of one See or another but of the glorified presence of both Saints in the See of Rome.

Perhaps this has been overlooked by apologists on both sides of this debate but it is something which should be reconsidered.

 

[Matariel]

Yep, that’s exactly what I said - St. Mark founded the Church in Alexandria which is the Coptic Church in which the Patriarch is called Pope.

And no, of course the Roman Pope has no authority over another Patriarch. The Roman Pope only has juridiction over the his own Church. As history proves.

I thought you said that St.Peter founded the Alexandrian See, not St.Mark. And what do you make of what-- wait, we should start a new thread to examine this matter further, as we have derailed this discussion.

 

[StMarina303ad]

I thought you said that St.Peter founded the Alexandrian See, not St.Mark. And what do you make of what-- wait, we should start a new thread to examine this matter further, as we have derailed this discussion.

St. James founded the Church in Jeruselem

St. Peter first founded the Church in Antioch.

St. Mark founded the Church in Alexandria.

St. Thomas founded the Church in India.

St. Andrew founded the Church in Byzantium (later called Constantinople)

St. Paul founded Churches all over Greece.

St. Peter & St. Paul founded the Church in Rome

I don’t remember off hand where the other Apostles founded Churches.

 

[Nicholas82]

It’s what the Church Fathers have taught for centuries.

So some would contend… My feeling is that if you believe in toll houses don’t get on Catholics about purgatory…

 

[StMarina303ad]

So some would contend…

Contend with the Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit and the Bride of Jesus Christ? You are right some might try to contend, but that would be like thowing yourself against a boulder - they’ll crush themselves, not the Church.

 

[StMarina303ad]

So some would contend… My feeling is that if you believe in toll houses don’t get on Catholics about purgatory…

Sorry, but Purgatory and the teaching of the Church about life after death have absolutely nothing to do with one another.