Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

[buffgbob]

Let me explain, for a moment, exactly why Mickey and posters of the like are accused of being uncharitable. Mickey makes comments like, “Rome has innovated a third state. Orthodoxy has not. It is quite simple.” This comment says, “It is quite simple” as if to imply you would have to be ignorant or a fool not to know and accept it.

Then there is also the case of his tireless polemics. An issue arises; Mickey asserts the Orthodox position and a majority of time misrepresents Catholic beliefs. When he is corrected on what Catholics believe he simply ignores it and continues on with his mischaracterization. A lack of will in trying to understand what the “other side” believes is, in itself, uncharitable.

Finally, I’d like to comment on the actual thread. Rome has “innovated” a third state? It has been explicity stated that the Orthodox do not believe the Saints are in heaven. It has also been stated that people are not “prayed out of Hell.” But as can be seen from this thread, our prayers help the dead in whatever state they are in (as they are in need of forgiveness.) If the Orthodox don’t believe in a third state and the Saints are not in Heaven, they must be in Hell, correct? This is what lead the poster to say, “prayed out of Hell.” This being corrected, begs the question: Do Orthodox believe in a third state? (I ask in a sense of charity aka actually wanting to know what the Orthodox believe.)

 

[adstrinity]

No one is saying they are “prayed out of hell”. If this is the way you are going to keep depicting it, then you are being dishonest.

I don’t think this poster is being dishonest. This is how I understand how the East views this from reading this thread. I don’t see how that’s NOT the case.

And, speaking of another place besides Heaven & Hell, please explain to me what Abraham’s Boosom is if it is not Heaven, yet, not a third state/place. That we do not go to Heaven right after we die (or at least not after we have been made clean enough to go there) is new to me…POSSIBLY to the other Romans here.

 

[chrisb]

I don’t think this poster is being dishonest. This is how I understand how the East views this from reading this thread. I don’t see how that’s NOT the case.

And, speaking of another place besides Heaven & Hell, please explain to me what Abraham’s Boosom is if it is not Heaven, yet, not a third state/place. That we do not go to Heaven right after we die (or at least not after we have been made clean enough to go there) is new to me…POSSIBLY to the other Romans here.

Ultimately the difference between some in the East and the West rest in whether Hell is understood as ‘purgative’ or ‘punitive’ or ‘Both’.

There is an opinion in the East that Hell is ultimately ‘purgative’ alone and that there exists the ‘hope’ that 'all will eventually be one with God. In this sense, prayer for the dead hasten this eventuality.

 

[Mickey]

Then there is also the case of his tireless polemics. An issue arises; Mickey asserts the Orthodox position and a majority of time misrepresents Catholic beliefs.

Let me clarify, buff.

No uncharity is intended. I was Roman Catholic for a very long time and I know what they “teach”. Purgatory was not a doctrine of the undivided Church of the East and West. The post schism era saw many additions by the Latin Church. One of those additions (innovations) was the idea of a doctrine called purgatory.

You see buff. I have stated it plainly and simply. There is no ill will intended.

 

[Mickey]

This is how I understand how the East views this from reading this thread.

Then you have understood incorrectly.

 

[adstrinity]

Then you have understood incorrectly.

1. b) No, Orthodox do not believe anyone can be prayed out of hell. The Orthodox pray for the dead to bring comfort to those friends/relatives of theirs or others who have fallen asleep in the Lord. The reason we want to pray for them is not to try to get them out of anywhere, but because they’re separated soul from body a completely unnatural state. A result of original sin. They are away from those they left behind on earth and we want to bring them comfort. Example: your wife took an extended trip to Europe - she may be having the trip of a lifetime, but she’d still miss you and it would bring her comfort to hear from you by letter or by telephone calls. (The exception to this is: Mary was taken body and soul into Heaven by her Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ 3 days after her death).

In response to number 2b, you’re saying that we pray for the dead simply to comfort them and that our prayers do nothing else for them? That is just plain wrong. Until the Final Judgement even those experiencing a foretaste of hell are helped by our prayers as their state is not yet eternally fixed. We ask God to forgive them their sins and transgressions- not simply so that they can feel better having heard from us. We commemorate them in the Divine Liturgy for what- just for comfort? In the Church prayers are ever offered for the repose of the dead, and on the day of the Descent of the Holy Spirit, in the kneeling prayers at vespers, there is even a special petition “for those in hell.”

Mickey,

We see your souls who are prayed out of hell as a 3rd state comparable to purgatory. It’s all a matter of terminology. You’ll even find Catholic sources that clearly define purgatory as being part of hell, the Catholic Encyclopedia for example (I know I know…the Catholic Encyclopedia …but it’s still a good source for general Catholic theology). The only real difference I’ve ever seen is that in Orthodoxy the souls seem to be unaware of their future, whereas in Catholicism the general opinion is that they know they will be saved (although I’m not sure if that’s definitely part of the doctrine).

If anyone on here wants to have a full Orthodox understanding as compared to Roman Catholic understanding of life after death. I would recommend: **Life After Death **by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos.

He explains in great detail along with references to the communication between the Orthodox and Catholics at the time the Catholic presented their new belief to the Orthodox Church. Orthodox understand as Sacred Scripture says, “God is Fire”. God is eternal and His Fire is eternal. Catholics came up with a 2nd Fire which they call Purgatory, a fire which is temporary. Orthodox were shocked when several hundred years after the 1054 official split (mutual excommunication of the Church of Rome from the rest of the Orthodox Church) to learn that the Catholics had begun to believe in a temporary 2nd Fire. It boggled the minds!

 

[Fuerza]

No one is saying they are “prayed out of hell”. If this is the way you are going to keep depicting it, then you are being dishonest.
Purgatory is a post schism innovation.

I am quoting nearly verbatim what Orthodox posters on this thread have stated. Note that I am not using hell in the Catholic sense, but rather the sense of the “place of the dead who suffer prior to the final judgement” of which the Orthodox often speak. Every single Orthodox source on the internet and in person confirms exactly what I’ve said. You are the first that I’ve seen deny it. Frankly, I thought you knew better than than to accuse me of dishonesty.

And again, it’s not an innovation. Even the Jews teach it.

 

[Fuerza]

You ask in what sense do we pray for the souls of the departed. Why, in the same sense that we pray for the souls of those with us because Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation. And so not only do we pray for them, but they also pray for us; in the same way that you might ask your friends to pray for you and in turn pray for them so also do we pray for each other without concern for the separation of death.

When we pray for either the living or the dead we use the same prayer: “Lord have mercy”, to express our desires. We do not know what to pray for even for those with whom we live because only God knows what is best for our salvation, and so we say “Lord have mercy”. Likewise we do not know the needs and concerns of the departed, but God does and trusting in His knowledge we say, “Lord have mercy”

We do know that, like all of us, those who have departed require forgiveness of sins, and that they look for a “place of rest” in the bosom of Christ and so we make this petition, that God will provide these things, but again as for specifics about how this should happen we simply conclude with “Lord have mercy”.
Fr David Moser

I really hate to break this to you, but the final paragraph describes exactly what Catholics are to believe regarding purgatory.

 

[StMarina303ad]

And again, it’s not an innovation. Even the Jews teach it.

I’m sorry but to imply that Jewish people believe and teach purgatory is nearing insanity. I know personally 3 Jewish people and they do not now, nor ever believed in purgatory.

If you are somehow misinterpreting one of the books of Macc. where someone refers to praying for the death is a wholesome thought to determine that Jews believe in purgatory is like an average sized person trying to get from New York to Japan in one literal footstep - not only is it impossible, if anyone was to attempt to do that it would be considered insane.

BTW - I do not think that you are insane, but your idea on this certainly is.

 

[StMarina303ad]

I really hate to break this to you, but the final paragraph describes exactly what Catholics are to believe regarding purgatory.

No it really doesn’t. You ought to read the writings from the council, of hand I think it was in the 1400’s or maybe 1200’s when Catholics first revealed to the Orthodox that they believed in Purgatory and how they described it. They descibed it as a 2nd and temporary fire, separate from the Eternal Fire of God.

 

[Matariel]

No it really doesn’t. You ought to read the writings from the council, of hand I think it was in the 1400’s or maybe 1200’s when Catholics first revealed to the Orthodox that they believed in Purgatory and how they described it. They descibed it as a 2nd and temporary fire, separate from the Eternal Fire of God.

Well, you Orthodox cannot keep up this charade of ambiguity on this matter. The only thing you agree on is that the Latins are wrong, and I think that must be bitter left-overs from somethings you hold against the Roman Church. It sounds to me like you really don’t know what you guys are supposed believe, which seems to make the Roman Christians’ Purgatory seem *much *more reasonable.

 

[Nicholas82]

Well, you Orthodox cannot keep up this charade of ambiguity on this matter. The only thing you agree on is that the Latins are wrong, and I think that must be bitter left-overs from somethings you hold against the Roman Church. It sounds to me like you really don’t know what you guys are supposed believe, which seems to make the Roman Christians’ Purgatory seem *much *more reasonable.

I’m sure you’re in a position to judge Holy Orthodoxy, especially since you’re obviously going on the ramblings of all three of us Orthodox posters on an internet forum. I met two other Catholics in one of the sub-forums who disagreed whether the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father alone, or from both the Father and the Son! You Catholics cannot keep up this charade of ambiguity on the matter. The only thing you agree on is that the Orthodox are wrong.

 

[Nicholas82]

I’m sorry but to imply that Jewish people believe and teach purgatory is nearing insanity. I know personally 3 Jewish people and they do not now, nor ever believed in purgatory.

If you are somehow misinterpreting one of the books of Macc. where someone refers to praying for the death is a wholesome thought to determine that Jews believe in purgatory is like an average sized person trying to get from New York to Japan in one literal footstep - not only is it impossible, if anyone was to attempt to do that it would be considered insane.

BTW - I do not think that you are insane, but your idea on this certainly is.

I think this line of thought among some Jews is what Fuerza is referring to:

"Gan Eden and Gehinnom
The place of spiritual reward for the righteous is often referred to in Hebrew as Gan Eden (GAHN ehy-DEHN) (the Garden of Eden). This is not the same place where Adam and Eve were; it is a place of spiritual perfection. Specific descriptions of it vary widely from one source to another. One source says that the peace that one feels when one experiences Shabbat properly is merely one-sixtieth of the pleasure of the afterlife. Other sources compare the bliss of the afterlife to the joy of sex or the warmth of a sunny day. Ultimately, though, the living can no more understand the nature of this place than the blind can understand color.

Only the very righteous go directly to Gan Eden. The average person descends to a place of punishment and/or purification, generally referred to as Gehinnom (guh-hee-NOHM) (in Yiddish, Gehenna), but sometimes as She’ol or by other names. According to one mystical view, every sin we commit creates an angel of destruction (a demon), and after we die we are punished by the very demons that we created. Some views see Gehinnom as one of severe punishment, a bit like the Christian Hell of fire and brimstone. Other sources merely see it as a time when we can see the actions of our lives objectively, see the harm that we have done and the opportunities we missed, and experience remorse for our actions. The period of time in Gehinnom does not exceed 12 months, and then ascends to take his place on Olam Ha-Ba."

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

 

[Matariel]

I’m sure you’re in a position to judge Holy Orthodoxy, especially since you’re obviously going on the ramblings of all three of us Orthodox posters on an internet forum. I met two other Catholics in one of the sub-forums who disagreed whether the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father alone, or from both the Father and the Son! You Catholics cannot keep up this charade of ambiguity on the matter. The only thing you agree on is that the Orthodox are wrong.

I guess I did speak a little rashly…

Mea maxima culpa. Absolvo te.

I could never presume to judge Holy Orthodoxy, or Holy Catholicism, for that matter. I am neither Orthodox nor Catholic, only inbetween and currently deciding. I really do want to settle this in my mind and join One or the Other. It just seems to me the Orthodox view of the afterlife is very vague and undefined, and often contradictory from one believer to the next, unlike the Catholic view.

And as for the Catholics, they believe that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, via spiration through the Son.

That’s all.

I cannot presume to shoulder the enormous task of judging Orthodoxy. I would get crushed for sure!

 

[Fuerza]

I’m sorry but to imply that Jewish people believe and teach purgatory is nearing insanity. I know personally 3 Jewish people and they do not now, nor ever believed in purgatory.

If you are somehow misinterpreting one of the books of Macc. where someone refers to praying for the death is a wholesome thought to determine that Jews believe in purgatory is like an average sized person trying to get from New York to Japan in one literal footstep - not only is it impossible, if anyone was to attempt to do that it would be considered insane.

BTW - I do not think that you are insane, but your idea on this certainly is.

I think that you need to study Orthodox Judaism. During the funeral for my wife’s grandmother, they prayed clearly for her release from the place of purification.

 

[Fuerza]

No it really doesn’t. You ought to read the writings from the council, of hand I think it was in the 1400’s or maybe 1200’s when Catholics first revealed to the Orthodox that they believed in Purgatory and how they described it. They descibed it as a 2nd and temporary fire, separate from the Eternal Fire of God.

You need to actually read what the Council wrote, as well as what the Catechism says. Then maybe you’ll be able to distinguish between opinion and the actual doctrine, as well as between literal and metaphorical speech. The paragraph from Mickey’s quote that I highlighted IS the official teaching.

No offense, but it appears clear that you did not acually study the faith that you left.

 

[Mickey]

Note that I am not using hell in the Catholic sense, but rather the sense of the “place of the dead who suffer prior to the final judgement” of which the Orthodox often speak.

You mean Hades?

You are the first that I’ve seen deny it.

No Orthodox source claims that souls are prayed out of “hell”. None. Zero.

And again, it’s not an innovation. Even the Jews teach it.

Are you Jewish?

It is an innovation.

 

[Mickey]

I really hate to break this to you, but the final paragraph describes exactly what Catholics are to believe regarding purgatory.

Wrong. Catholics say there is some type of purification by fire. Some say there is pain involved. Some say it is punishment. Orthodoxy teaches no such thing. We leave the departed to the mercy of the Lord and do not attempt to innovate some type of fictitious place or state of purgation by fire.

 

[buffgbob]

Could we get an answer on this subject? I mean, it’s ok that the Orthodox don’t “want to elaborate.” However, they shouldn’t also hold contradicting views. I am imploring because I want to know what Orthodox believe.

Now it is stated:

The Saints are not in Heaven.
The Saints are not in a “third place.”
The Saints are not “prayed out of Hell.”

I can only assume that by these three sentences, Orthodox believe the Saints are in Hell and that our prayers do not help them. However, I’m almost positive this is not what the Orthodox believe. Let me pose just one simple question: Are the Saints in Hell?

 

[Khakhalin]

However, they shouldn’t also hold contradicting views.

There are some things in Christianity, you know, about which christians do really have contradicting views. For example: some say, there’s one God, some say - there’re 3 different persons, acting independently. Some say Jesus was God, some say - He was a man. And there’re really a lot of stuff like that. You probably yourself can continue the list =)

The only thing is that some critical dogmas were formulated in a dialectial way, so that nobody can shoult that “Jesus is only God”, for example. It was confirmed by the Church that He was both, so both statements are right. They are contradictory, but each of them explains only part of the whole picture.

However the majority of paradoxes were not firmly formulated - as that’s extremely hard to do a good formulation, and sometimes just unnecessary. That’s why even on this simple question - what happens with people after their death - you can find contradictory answers in different saints writings (and even more so in different orthodox brains =) And it’s not necessary a problem. That’s a chance to understand that God is far above our understanding.