Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

[Mickey]

I can only assume that by these three sentences, Orthodox believe the Saints are in Hell and that our prayers do not help them.

Now you are being silly buff.

Prayers to God for the soul of man after death are justified as prayers of gratitude to Almighty God for His mercy and compassion in saving the soul of the dead. God saves the soul not because of its worthiness, but because of its repentance when alive as a sign of complete obedience to His Will. It is only the mercy of God that saves the soul of the “just”. The prayers of the living for the dead are prayers of gratitude to Almighty God, that He has already saved the soul of the departed one, and are not prayers to God to forgive the sins of the dead. Therefore, according to the Orthodox Church in the Sacrament of Repentance-Confession, repentance means absolution of sins in the name of Christ, Who justifies and saves the believer. The Church teaches justification by repentance not as a judicial act nor as satisfactions for divine righteousness but as justification and sanctification by God’s grace.
Rev. George Mastrantonis

 

[buffgbob]

Now you are being silly buff.

Prayers to God for the soul of man after death are justified as prayers of gratitude to Almighty God for His mercy and compassion in saving the soul of the dead. God saves the soul not because of its worthiness, but because of its repentance when alive as a sign of complete obedience to His Will. It is only the mercy of God that saves the soul of the “just”. The prayers of the living for the dead are prayers of gratitude to Almighty God, that He has already saved the soul of the departed one, and are not prayers to God to forgive the sins of the dead. Therefore, according to the Orthodox Church in the Sacrament of Repentance-Confession, repentance means absolution of sins in the name of Christ, Who justifies and saves the believer. The Church teaches justification by repentance not as a judicial act nor as satisfactions for divine righteousness but as justification and sanctification by God’s grace.
Rev. George Mastrantonis

In all honesty, I am not trying to be silly. From my understanding, the Saints are in Hell and our prayers do not help them. This seems to be the reinforced ideas from what I’ve read. Our prayers do not help them because it is impossible for them to leave Hell until the Final Judgement. Because of this, it would be wrong to say they are “prayed out of Hell.” What part of this idea is silly? I asked a simple question that was left unanswered, are the Saints in Hell?

However the majority of paradoxes were not firmly formulated - as that’s extremely hard to do a good formulation, and sometimes just unnecessary. That’s why even on this simple question - what happens with people after their death - you can find contradictory answers in different saints writings (and even more so in different orthodox brains =) And it’s not necessary a problem. That’s a chance to understand that God is far above our understanding.

I understand. Since the Orthodox Church has not decreed on the matter people in the Church have contradicting views on the matter? Is that appropriate to say? My original statement about holding contradicting views was based on my assumption that the Orthodox teach something definitive on this matter. I would point out that there is a big difference between a paradox and a contradiction. A paradox is only a seeming condradiction (it is no contradiction at all.)

 

[Mickey]

From my understanding, the Saints are in Hell and our prayers do not help them.

How odd.

 

[Matariel]

Wrong. Catholics say there is some type of purification by fire.

Uh, you’re wrong. Although the image of fire is used in the West sometimes, it is not an official teaching. Also some say it is metaphorical.

Some say there is pain involved.

This is the general consensus, but not an official teaching.

Some say it is punishment.

No, it’s more like purification from attachment and temporal guilt due to earthly sin.

Orthodoxy teaches no such thing. We leave the departed to the mercy of the Lord and do not attempt to innovate some type of fictitious place or state of purgation by fire.

No, instead you have aerial toll booths and ladders that demons pull you off of into Hell.

 

[buffgbob]

How odd.

I guess I should, “My understanding of Orthodox belief is…” That is not how I personally view things. And I might note, my question still hasn’t been answered.

 

[Mickey]

Uh, you’re wrong. Although the image of fire is used in the West sometimes, it is not an official teaching. Also some say it is metaphorical.
this is the general consensus, but not an official teaching.
No, it’s more like purification from attachment and temporal guilt due to earthly sin.

This is the problem. No one ever really knows what the doctrine is trying to say.

No, instead you have aerial toll booths

No we do not. There is no such doctrine in Holy Orthodoxy.

Perhaps you are thinking of the Pennsylvania Turn Pike.

 

[Mickey]

I guess I should, “My understanding of Orthodox belief is…” That is not how I personally view things. And I might note, my question still hasn’t been answered.

I am sorry that you do not understand. It means that I have failed to explain it to you properly. My apologies.

The worst of sinners,
Mickey

 

[buffgbob]

This is the problem. No one ever really knows what the doctrine is trying to say.

Yeah, the confusion is on the Catholic side.

I will ask for a third time though, as you seem to be avoiding answering:

Are the Saints in Hell?

 

[Mickey]

Yeah, the confusion is on the Catholic side.

Regarding purgatory: there seems to be much confusion on the Roman Catholic side.

Are the Saints in Hell?

And the reason I will not answer “yes or no”–is because it is a silly and mocking question. Perhaps someone else will answer it for you—or perhaps you will figure it out on your own.

May God bless you buff!

 

[Matariel]

This is the problem. No one ever really knows what the doctrine is trying to say.

It seems like there is a lot more agreement on the Latins’ side than on the Orthodox. I’ve been trying to understand what on earth the various Orthodox posters have been saying about this, but it’s nearly impossible to find out what is the definitive Orthodox teaching on the afterlife. Perhaps for the Orthodox Christians it is just a big question mark.

No we do not. There is no such doctrine in Holy Orthodoxy.

StMarina303AD said otherwise.

And what about the Ladder of Divine Ascent? And I Corinthians, Paul & Thecla, Martyrdom of Perpetua, etc. At least these seem to be mentioning purgatorial fire, not a ladder. And these are all early writings.

Perhaps you are thinking of the Pennsylvania Turn Pike.

So where are the Saints now…??? Not in Hell, good Heavens, no way! Not in Heaven, you say, and there is no “third state” you say, so where???

 

[buffgbob]

Regarding purgatory: there seems to be much confusion on the Roman Catholic side.

And the reason I will not answer “yes or no”–is because it is a silly and mocking question. Perhaps someone else will answer it for you—or perhaps you will figure it out on your own.

MayGod bless you buff!

I apologize if you thought me to be mocking. I thought the question was serious, straightfoward, and simple. I meant no ill will.

I mean, I feel like I can infer an answer, but I wanted a definitive answer before I made the assumption of understanding your beliefs. I infer the answer as “yes”, but since this is a strange innovation to me, I didn’t want to assume you held that position unless it was explicitly stated.

 

[Mickey]

It seems like there is a lot more agreement on the Latins’ side than on the Orthodox. I’ve been trying to understand what on earth the various Orthodox posters have been saying about this, but it’s nearly impossible to find out what is the definitive Orthodox teaching on the afterlife. Perhaps for the Orthodox Christians it is just a big question mark.

Don’t you get it? It is a mystery. Only God knows what will happen to us. Orthodoxy does not attempt to explain it. But Roman Catholicism with their scholastic theology and their philsophical meanderings attempt to define everything–and they cannot understand why Orthodoxy also does not attempt to define everything!

We cannot and we will not.

If you are more comfortable with Roman Catholic theology–so be it.

And what about the Ladder of Divine Ascent?

That is a famous Icon depicting human nature as we strive for virtues but are continually falling away from the virtuous path (the ladder of ascent) due to the passions.

I recommend the book, “Ladder of Divine Ascent” by St John Climacus.

 

[adstrinity]

So where are the Saints now…??? Not in Hell, good Heavens, no way! Not in Heaven, you say, and there is no “third state” you say, so where???

From what I can ascertain, Abraham’s Bosom, but, it’s not Heaven. I don’t understand how this could be, though, because it seems like it would be some sort of third state.

Don’t you get it? It is a mystery. Only God knows what will happen to us. Orthodoxy does not attempt to explain it. But Roman Catholicism with their scholastic theology and their philsophical meanderings attempt to define everything–and they cannot understand why Orthodoxy also does not attempt to define everything!

We cannot and we will not.

NO WE DO NOT GET IT!!! THIS is what we’ve been trying to tell YOU! Thank you for explaing that, “it is a mystery.” This is what we needed…~I~ needed from an Orthodox person.

Please understand you are on a Catholic Forum that is being run from the United States. You are on here with Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, LDS, Agnostics & Athiests along with Orthodox, Orientals, Muslims, and probably those of the Eastern philosophies and a smattering of pagan and neo-pagan beliefs.
NONE of us have the same zeitgiest as you. We do not see things how you see them and if you would just say, “it’s not defined in Orthodoxy, we simply do not know; this is how we came to this conclusion…” whether it is debated or not, at least, from that point on, we will know.

Somebody on these forums posted not to long ago that the East views God as a Doctor, the West views God as a Judge. We do not see sin as a disease but as breaking God’s Law; please remember that when you reply, we do not see things the same way.

This just brings up more questions, now, though. If the Saints aren’t in Heaven, how do you know that they are Saints? How do you view that the Saints AREN’T in Heaven? Does this have to do with Jesus saying, “I will prepare a place for you”?

 

[Mickey]

NO WE DO NOT GET IT!!!

No. Apparently not.

 

[Matariel]

Don’t you get it? It is a mystery. Only God knows what will happen to us. Orthodoxy does not attempt to explain it. But Roman Catholicism with their scholastic theology and their philsophical meanderings attempt to define everything–and they cannot understand why Orthodoxy also does not attempt to define everything!

We cannot and we will not.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ruffle your feathers, I really wanted to know. If the Orthodox understanding is that it is a mystery, that is all fine. That’s reasonable. That’s all we were wondering.

If you are more comfortable with Roman Catholic theology–so be it.

Perhaps it is because I am a Westerner… I need to look at the RCs and EOs objectively, as if I was niether Eastern or Western, if that’s possible.

That is a famous Icon depicting human nature as we strive for virtues but are continually falling away from the virtuous path (the ladder of ascent) due to the passions.

I recommend the book, “Ladder of Divine Ascent” by St John Climacus.

That’s interesting. I shouldn’t’ve have speaked about your Orthodox traditions so flippantly. I’m sorry. Holy Orthodoxy has a venerable mystic tradition and I shouldn’t treat it so flippantly.

 

[Mickey]

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ruffle your feathers, I really wanted to know. If the Orthodox understanding is that it is a mystery, that is all fine. That’s reasonable. That’s all we were wondering.

I am not ruffled. We do not know purgatory. That is about all there is to it.

That’s interesting. I shouldn’t’ve have speaked about your Orthodox traditions so flippantly. I’m sorry. Holy Orthodoxy has a venerable mystic tradition and I shouldn’t treat it so flippantly.

No problem. Sometimes forums make us sound meaner than we really are.

Happens to me all the time. I am a super friendly guy. But many here think I am a monster!

 

[Matariel]

I am not ruffled. We do not know purgatory. That is about all there is to it.
No problem. Sometimes forums make us sound meaner than we really are.

Definately! We all become a little meaner when we can’t see one another face-to-face!

 

[adstrinity]

No. Apparently not.

Now that we have some common ground (that we do not understand), will you please explain? Even if you cannot, please let us know. My two questions from the end of my last post still go unanswered.

 

[Fuerza]

You mean Hades?

No Orthodox source claims that souls are prayed out of “hell”. None. Zero.
Are you Jewish?

It is an innovation.

Yes, Hades may be what I am thinking of. Whichever term you use is irrelevant to the original argument.

how can something be an innovation when it was believed before Christ came to Earth? Please show me the exact documet in which Rome announced this never before heard of belief, as well as where they explained why they made it up.

 

[Fuerza]

Wrong. Catholics say there is some type of purification by fire. Some say there is pain involved. Some say it is punishment. Orthodoxy teaches no such thing. We leave the departed to the mercy of the Lord and do not attempt to innovate some type of fictitious place or state of purgation by fire.

Don’t you dare try to tell me what Catholics believe. The official doctrine says nothing about fire. The only required belief is that there is a state of transition in which souls are freed from any remaining afflictions of sin, and that prayers are helpful during this state. We know nothing of its nature, but many have speculated that it involves fire or pain. Scripture speaks of both a prison and a cleansing fire, but nowhere does Catholic doctrine indicate that we must take this literally. There is nothing in the doctrine that contradicts the quote that you posted earlier. The only “problem” is all the Orthodox polemicists who try to force on us what they think that we should believe (according to their misinterpretations) in order to justify condemning us as heretics.