Saints and Hell in Orthodoxy

[Fuerza]

Wrong. Catholics say there is some type of purification by fire. Some say there is pain involved. Some say it is punishment. Orthodoxy teaches no such thing. We leave the departed to the mercy of the Lord and do not attempt to innovate some type of fictitious place or state of purgation by fire.

Getting back to this, here is the official Doctrine of Purgatory as defined by the Council of Florence from an excerpt in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

**The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined: **

“Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful” (Denzinger, “Enchiridon”, 983).

**Further than this the definitions of the Church do not go, but the tradition of the Fathers and the Schoolmen must be consulted to explain the teachings of the councils, and to make clear the belief and the practices of the faithful. **

Further on, the article clearly explains that while belief in a literal fire is common, no doctrinal pronouncements have been made on the subject. While the Catholic Encyclopedia is in some instances biased in regard to Eastern Orthodox Churches, it is generally very starightforward in its presentation of Catholic doctine, and I therefore recommend reading the entire article. It also gives quotes from some of the Eastern Fathers regarding purgatory.

newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

 

[Mickey]

Don’t you dare try to tell me what Catholics believe.

Please try to relax.

The official doctrine says nothing about fire. The only required belief is that there is a state of transition in which souls are freed from any remaining afflictions of sin, and that prayers are helpful during this state. We know nothing of its nature, but many have speculated that it involves fire or pain.

My apologies. It is this “speculation” about “fire” that was taught to me by Roman Catholic nuns and priests throughout my life.

Are there any other theories as to what type of “punishment” happens in purgatory other than “fire”?

 

[adstrinity]

Please try to relax.
My apologies. It is this “speculation” about “fire” that was taught to me by Roman Catholic nuns and priests throughout my life.

Are there any other theories as to what type of “punishment” happens in purgatory other than “fire”?

Dante came up with a few, but, of course, he holds no weight in actual doctrines. Creative theory, though. Are you familiar with what he came up with?

 

[Mickey]

Are you familiar with what he came up with?

Yes.

 

[Matariel]

Please try to relax.
My apologies. It is this “speculation” about “fire” that was taught to me by Roman Catholic nuns and priests throughout my life.

Are there any other theories as to what type of “punishment” happens in purgatory other than “fire”?

Well, I’ve seen illustrations of holy souls getting plunged into an icy heath. I’ve also seen one where holy souls are in a wasteland and there are angels with fiery whips chastising them.

I even saw an odd midaeval one where angels were putting holy souls into a machine-like thing and they came out the bottom glowing and holy.

 

[Mickey]

Well, I’ve seen illustrations of holy souls getting plunged into an icy heath. I’ve also seen one where holy souls are in a wasteland and there are angels with fiery whips chastising them.

I even saw an odd midaeval one where angels were putting holy souls into a machine-like thing and they came out the bottom glowing and holy.

:bigyikes:

 

[StMarina303ad]

Don’t you dare try to tell me what Catholics believe. The official doctrine says nothing about fire.

Apparently you will need to read the writings from the councils of the Catholic Church starting with the 1200’s forward. Because the Roman Catholic Church clearly revealed that they now believed that was a 2nd Fire, a Temporary Fire which they called Purgatory. This idea was foreign and unknown in the Eastern Christian world and it was rejected.

 

[adstrinity]

Yes.

Ah good! I own his work, but, I have not fully read it. I am, however, familiar with the punishments doled out in both hell and purgatory and find them perfectly appropriate. For those who don’t know…

• First Terrace. The proud are purged by carrying giant stones on their backs, unable to stand up straight (Cantos X through XII). This teaches the sinner that pride puts weight on the soul and it is better to throw it off. Furthermore, there are carvings of historical and mythological examples of pride and humility to learn from. With the weight on one’s back, one cannot help but see this carved pavement and learn from it. The prayer for this terrace is the Lord’s Prayer, and the beatitude is blessed are the poor in spirit. At the ascent to the next terrace, an angel clears a letter P from Dante’s head. This process is repeated on each terrace. Each time a P is removed, Dante’s body feels lighter, because he becomes less and less weighed down by sin.
• Second Terrace. The envious are purged by having their eyes sewn shut and wearing clothing that makes the soul indistinguishable from the ground (Cantos XIII through XV). This is akin to a falconer’s sewing the eyes of a falcon shut in order to train it. In this regard, God is the falconer and is training the souls not to envy others and to direct their love towards Him. Two examples of envy (Cain who was jealous of his brother, and Aglauros who was jealous of her sister) are contrasted with three of generosity. Because the souls here cannot see, the examples are voices on the air, including Jesus’ words “love your enemies.” As he is leaving the terrace, the dazzling light of the angel causes Dante to observe that the angle of incidence is equal to the angle of reflection “as theory and experiment will show.”[11]
• Third Terrace. The wrathful are purged by walking around in acrid smoke (Cantos XV through XVII). Souls correct themselves by learning how wrath has blinded their vision, impeding their judgment (the sin of wrath represents a perversion of the natural love of justice). The prayer for this terrace is the Agnus Dei, and the beatitude is blessed are the peacemakers.
  On the fourth terrace we find sinners whose sin was that of deficient love—that is, sloth or acedia.
• Fourth Terrace. The slothful are purged by continually running (Cantos XVIII and XIX). Those who were slothful in life can only purge this sin by being zealous in their desire for penance. Allegorically, spiritual laziness and lack of caring lead to sadness, and so the beatitude for this terrace is blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.[12]
  On the fifth through seventh terraces are those who sinned by loving good things, but loving them in a disordered way.
• Fifth Terrace. The avaricious and prodigal are purged by lying face-down on the ground, unable to move (Cantos XIX through XXI). Excessive concern for earthly goods—whether in the form of greed or extravagance—is punished and purified. The sinner learns to turn his desire from possessions, power or position to God. It is here that the poets meet the soul of Statius, who has completed his purgation and joins them on their ascent to paradise.
• Sixth Terrace. The gluttonous are purged by abstaining from any food or drink (Cantos XXII through XXIV). Here, the soul’s desire to eat a forbidden fruit causes its shade to starve. To sharpen the pains of hunger, the former gluttons on this terrace are forced to pass by cascades of cool water without stopping to drink. (Considering Dante’s use of Greek myth, this may be inspired by Tantalus.)
• Seventh Terrace. The lustful are purged by burning in an immense wall of flames (Cantos XXV through XXVII). All of those who committed sexual sins, both heterosexual and homosexual, are purified by the fire. Excessive sexual desire misdirects one’s love from God and this terrace is meant to correct that. In addition, perhaps because all sin has its roots in misguided love, every soul who has completed his penance on the lower six cornices must pass through the wall of flame before ascending to the Earthly Paradise. Here Dante, too, must share the penance of the redeemed as the last “P” is removed from his forehead.
  – From Wikipedia.

Though this is not at all canonical, I rather like what he did. If one does go to that page in wikipedia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy , one will see that those in Hell are punished for their sins, while in Purgatory, they are corrected of theirs. The particulars are still speculations, but, I rather like his logic and conclusions for this work of fiction.

 

[Fuerza]

Apparently you will need to read the writings from the councils of the Catholic Church starting with the 1200’s forward. Because the Roman Catholic Church clearly revealed that they now believed that was a 2nd Fire, a Temporary Fire which they called Purgatory. This idea was foreign and unknown in the Eastern Christian world and it was rejected.

Read post number 101

 

[Mickey]

– From Wikipedia.

Though this is not at all canonical, I rather like what he did. If one does go to that page in wikipedia, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy , one will see that those in Hell are punished for their sins, while in Purgatory, they are corrected of theirs. The particulars are still speculations, but, I rather like his logic and conclusions for this work of fiction.

Your doctrine of purgatory says, “punishment”.

 

[adstrinity]

Your doctrine of purgatory says, “punishment”.

What?

 

[Mickey]

What?

Read the 2nd council of Lyons. If you cannot find it, I will post it for you when I get the chance.

 

[Fuerza]

Read the 2nd council of Lyons. If you cannot find it, I will post it for you when I get the chance.

Adstrinity was speaking of the Purgatorio and the Inferno, not the official doctrine of the Church. But please post the doctrine as enunciated in 2nd Lyons as I can’t seem to find it anywhere. Florence and Trent define purgatory very clearly, and in both cases the dogmatic definition is limited to what I posted above, while the ideas of fire and pain are put forth as non-dogmatic opinions.

Also, I don’t really understand your hang up with the word “punishment”. Whether we use the word punishment, purification, or healing, the outcome is exactly the same. This has always struck me as another example of Orthodox semantic games.

 

[Mickey]

Also, I don’t really understand your hang up with the word “punishment”.

No hang up. I just find it odd that there are two places of punishment for Roman Catholic theology. But I do see that you are kinda hung up on the subject of purgatory.

This has always struck me as another example of Orthodox semantic games.

There are no semantic games. We do not know purgatory. Period!

 

[Mickey]

But please post the doctrine as enunciated in 2nd Lyons

If those who are truly penitent die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments … The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.
Second Council of Lyons in 1274

 

[Mickey]

It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments…
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439)

 

[Fuerza]

I’m sorry but to imply that Jewish people believe and teach purgatory is nearing insanity. I know personally 3 Jewish people and they do not now, nor ever believed in purgatory.

If you are somehow misinterpreting one of the books of Macc. where someone refers to praying for the death is a wholesome thought to determine that Jews believe in purgatory is like an average sized person trying to get from New York to Japan in one literal footstep - not only is it impossible, if anyone was to attempt to do that it would be considered insane.

BTW - I do not think that you are insane, but your idea on this certainly is.

A little more reading on my “insanity”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna: Establishes Gehenna primarily as the Jewish place of purification, but mentions traditional Jewish belief that some will suffer there eternally. Thus, it is kind of hell and purgatory in one.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory: Briefly establishes the idea of post mortem purification In Judaism, as well as touching on views of other faiths. It quickly mentions that some Jews even use the word “purgatory” (although the Catholic word is not derived from this usage).

religionfacts.com/judaism/beliefs/afterlife.htm: Describes views among some different Jewish schools on the afterlife. The “Judgment” section describes one very purgatorian view. While not universally accepted (very little about the afterlife is universally accepted in Judaism), it establishes it as an ancient belief. The “Gehinnom” section also contains a purgatory-like teaching. In fact, the Jewish view seems to espouse a very strict, punitive idea of purgatory to which even Catholics are not bound (as does the Orthodox Patriarch Dositheus).

jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm: Another brief description of the Jewish afterlife, again mentioning a form of purification.

Maybe the 3 Jewish people that you know personally have never heard of this belief. The dozens of Orthodox Jews that I know certainly have.

 

[Fuerza]

If those who are truly penitent die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments … The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful.
Second Council of Lyons in 1274

It is likewise defined, that, if those truly penitent have departed in the love of God, before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for sins of commission and omission, the souls of these are cleansed after death by purgatorial punishments…
Laetentur Coeli, Council of Florence (1439)

I still don’t see a problem with the use of the word “punishment”. Sin is seen as an act against God. Any measure taken to correct this would be considered punishment. Punishment in and of itself does not have to be negative, and certainly can have healing value. An example: Someone commits burglary and unable to pay back what he stole, is sentenced to work in a homeless shelter soup kitchen. He may achieve tremendous spiritual development and appreciation for how hard life can be. He may even enjoy his work there, but at the end of the day he is still being punished. This is the general idea of purgatory, that souls may be healed from the afflictions of sin. The fact that the Latin Church uses the imagery of crime and punishent is a product of the legalistic society and culture in which it developed. Why there is anything wrong with this is beyond me.

 

[Mickey]

I still don’t see a problem with the use of the word “punishment”.

I do.

Punishment in and of itself does not have to be negative

That is legalistic double talk.

The fact that the Latin Church uses the imagery of crime and punishent is a product of the legalistic society and culture in which it developed.

Yes.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Adstrinity was speaking of the Purgatorio and the Inferno, not the official doctrine of the Church. But please post the doctrine as enunciated in 2nd Lyons as I can’t seem to find it anywhere. Florence and Trent define purgatory very clearly, and in both cases the dogmatic definition is limited to what I posted above, while the ideas of fire and pain are put forth as non-dogmatic opinions.

Also, I don’t really understand your hang up with the word “punishment”. Whether we use the word punishment, purification, or healing, the outcome is exactly the same. This has always struck me as another example of Orthodox semantic games.

Sorry, but the terms “punishment” and “healing” don’t really seem like a simple difference of semantics. Someone “punished” would be locked behind bars in jail serving a sentence being in constant fear of being attacked by other prisoners - remaining very careful with the soap; someone being “healed” on the other hand would be in a hospital with 24/7 care by nurses, doctors and visits from family members and friends - everyone there to help & encourage him. Two totally different situations.