Saints: How Would They Live In Today's World?

[JReducation]

Thanks JR for starting this thread.

saintgianna.org/

You’re welcome Indy and thanks for joining us. I’ll hope that you’ll hang around and share with us your experience and knowledge.

JR

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I love Jean Marie Vianney so much that I named my daughter after him and St. Terese. Her name is Jeannette Marie Terese.

Jonn Vianney has an extraordinary dedication to mercy and forgiveness. If you examine his life and add up the hours that he spent in the confessional they add up to years.

Like all of the saints, he certainly teaches us about the power of God’s love. But he brings something else to the table that we need today. His life spent in the confessional should remind us that God is a God of forgiveness. God is not out to judge us, but to save us.

This is where many Christians falter and should read John’s life. While John recognized the reality of sin and did not underestimate the seriousness of sin, he was also keenly aware of ther reality of forgiveness.

If we look at our world what do we see? We see nations punishing each other. Tough love has become a fashionable disguise for submitting people and manipulating them. It’s not so much about allowing people to face the consequences of their actions as it is about controlling those who do not fit our mold. People try to feel better about themselves by going to the gym and spending thousands of dollars on their bodies, because they feel uncomfortable with who they are. They are unable to forgive themselves, so they overcompensate with this new found love for healthy living, which is suddenlty becoming an obsession. Since when did obsessions become healthy?

John Vianney was detached from all of this. He did not try to control the lives of the faithful. He was concerned with ministry to God’s people. He was a simple servant, not an authoritarian figure. When he preached about sin, he did it with a smile on his face, not because he was making light of sin, but because sin always reminded him of God’s infinite desire to forgive. This insight into God’s desire to forgive us and to teach us to forgive ourselves and our neighbor brought joy to his soul.

We have lost that sense of joy. We think of sin and we see sin and heresy everywhere, even in the most insignificant things. Then there are those who are blind to sin. Both extremes are dangerous. God gave us the gift of forgivenes. It’s free and available as often as we ask for it. Jean Marie Vianney discovered this through prayer and penance. The more he prayed and the more penance he did, the deeper he went into the mystery of God’s forgiveness.

The world needs this message. God forgives. God wants to forgive. God has already forgiven, before you sinned. All you have to do to receive the grace that flows from God’s infinite love is to say two simple words, “I’m sorry.” God doesn’t require great acts of humliation from us in order to forgive us. All he waits for is for us to say like the the good thief, “Remember me when you enter into your Kingdom.”

This is what Jean Marie Vianney brings to the table of today’s Church. He reminds us that God will not forget us. It is we that forget God. It is we who have trouble forgiving ourselves.

Another message that we get from Jean Marie Vianney’s life is that you cannot play God and then walk away from what you have created. You have to face your deeds. Vianney certainly faced his sinfulness with a sense of responsibility. He did not deny responsibility for his sins. He spent long hours in prayer and penance for his sins and those of the world. He also served the sinner by being available in the confessional where the sinner could face his or her choices and take responsibility for those choices.

What many people don’t know about Jean Marie Vianney is that he had learning disabilities. He never passed his examinations toward his degree nor did he learn Latin. He had to study in French and he memorized the prayers for the mass and the confessional, because he could not master the Latin grammar nor memorize the vocabulary. He was also a poor student in other subjects. But when it came to spiritual guidance, like all people with learning disabilities, he was a genius, because he has a very practical and concrete approach to God and his forgiveness.

JR

I wonder what he would do if assigned to any one of those American parishes we keep heairing so much about in the news etc…

Or would that be off-topic?

 

[Indyann]

I think that Father Solanus Casey had some learning disabilities also. Several seminaries turned him down and when he was finally accepted, he was only allowed to be a doorkeeper or do some menial tasks.

I am quite interested him because he was at a monastery here in Indiana for a time.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

I think that Father Solanus Casey had some learning disabilities also. Several seminaries turned him down and when he was finally accepted, he was only allowed to be a doorkeeper or do some menial tasks.

I am quite interested him because he was at a monastery here in Indiana for a time.

That would be an interesting tag team at any parish

 

[Indyann]

That would be an interesting tag team at any parish

AAAHHHHH, But think of the graces that would flow! The parish council could handle the day to day stuff.

 

[JReducation]

I wonder what he would do if assigned to any one of those American parishes we keep heairing so much about in the news etc…

Or would that be off-topic?

It difficult to speculate on what he would do. Remember what I said in my opening comments. The saints lived within the context of their time and culture. What is timeless is not their activity, but their spirituality.

We can’t say he would do this or that. But we can say that his spirituality would be the same. He would continue to preach the joyful news that God wants to forgive our sins and he would find ways to draw people to seek that forgiveness.

Just as he founded a school for wayward girls, which many people don’t know, he would probably found ministries to help those who need guidance on how to live responsibile Christian lives.

I believe that his sense of compassion for sinners and his sense of joy at being able to offer sinner the possibility of forgiveness would the the same.

Whether he would spend 1,000 hours a month in a confessional or would find another way is pure specualtion.

What we do know for certain is his belief in God’s forgiveness and in man’s ability to change if he really wants to change, just by facing his choices and correcting those that are wrong.

I can believe that Jean-Marie Vianney would not bring anything new to the table in terms of spirituality. In other words, his spirituality would be the same. His method would be whatever he believed would work the best.

One of the most wonderful things that I have found working with people who have the kind of disabilities that Jean-Marie had is that they tend to be very practical, because they see life in very concrete terms. They don’t over complicate things as the rest of us tend to do. They tend to be very black and white. They sort out what works from what doesn’t work and they go with it.

Jean-Marie Vianney had a mystical encounter with God in the most intimate part of his soul where he discovered God’s infinite desire to forgive and to guide us. Were he alive today, he would probably still have the same mystical experience. How he would communicate that with the modern world, is hard to tell. But he would find a way, because once you have had an intimate encounter with God within the soul, there is no turning back. The soul hungers to please the beloved and will find a way to do so.

JR

 

[chewchoo]

Ahh… In the last century, there was a woman who, when she had trouble with her pregnancy, told her husband to save the baby first. I think it was Gianna something… people keep telling me and I keep forgetting. But I think she’s a good example. She might only be “Blessed” though…

this still happens today
we had a woman at work, she became a mother of 3, when she was pregnant with her 4th they discovered she had leukemia. she would not accept any cancer treatment while she was pregnant. after her baby was born she underwent intense treatment, but it was too late. she died shortly there after.
so we still have selfless people in this world today. we just have to “see” them.

 

[chewchoo]

I think that Father Solanus Casey had some learning disabilities also. Several seminaries turned him down and when he was finally accepted, he was only allowed to be a doorkeeper or do some menial tasks.

I am quite interested him because he was at a monastery here in Indiana for a time.

i believe part of his learning disability was that the seminary that he went to was taught by german priests and solanus didn’t know german. or something similar to that. he may have had a learning disability on top of that tho, i’m not sure.

my uncle met fr. casey at the soup kitchen in detroit in the 50’s.

 

[LaLucia]

I have always admired Mother Theresa. She truly loved feeding and caring for poor people. She gave it her all.

She inspires me to feed the poor. I am out of town today and I went for a walk to the shopping mall. I saw a young man just sitting on the sidewalk. He didn’t look like a bum. He looked like he was all alone in the world with no money and no food.
I stood there looking at him and I thought to myself "God has been good to me and has provided a comfortable life.
I looked in my purse and found a package of snacks and a small bottle of coke soda. I gave it to him. Then I went shopping and bought him some more snacks and decided to give him some money. He wasn’t begging for money. I could tell he just needed a helping hand and I felt that other people in the city would help him out.
Later on in the evening… a friend and I went shopping and she found a dollar bill on the floor. I said to her that God is giving her a sign that there is money in the world. She said she felt she should give the dollar away to someone on the street. She was planning to give the dollar to some musicians playing music on the street corner but then a poor homeless man asked her for some change. She turned around and gave him the dollar.

The point I am trying to make is that some of us are not saints but we can do some of the things they did to help people. If we all did that it would be a better world.

 

[CentralFLJames]

JR I am happy to see you bring up the Cure of Ars - St. John Vianney. This is another saint that I have been studying in my spare time. I arrived at him through study of purgatory. He is a very sobering man and if Catholics want to get a good dose of reality on how holy God calls us to be The Cure of Ars and his works are a MUST read. He has some classic works The Sermons of the Cure of Ars that give very good insights for the average luke-warm Catholic. The man pulls no punches and tells us like it is. He confirms my suspicions in myself and for the world at at large that we have completely and utterly rationalized away the gravity of our sins and most of us live on the edge of the abyss daily and must do some serious spiritual re-dedication.

Separate from The Cure of Ars I’d like to comment on the matter of your observation about the current over focus on personal health and fitness and nutrition. I’d toss out that the proper motivation for this makes all the difference. Sadly, most people are into the health thing for the wrong reasons. Most do it to make themselves more attractive sexually and just to have more social options. On the other hand most people who do not take care of themselves physically are more often than not unbalanced in other areas of life and the stress of all that and the lack of self-discipline are manifest as serious health issues (usually obesity). So we have 2 extremes of the same problem that each are indicative of an imbalance. I am one of those who firmly believes that a person really MUST work at developing their spiritual side as well keeping their physical nature fit and healthy. We really are an inseparable entity or whole person with a physical, spiritual and intellectual nature. We must be good stewards to ourselves and God’s gift of our whole being. So we should be developing all 3 areas and not letting anyone of the three become atrophied. Gluttony and Sloth are capital sins just as are Pride and Lust. We can actually have more influence on those who are “in the world” if we physically look like we are in good shape and seem to walk the walk and not just talk the talk from an intellectual and spiritual only insight. This may seem shallow but it is reality and it is what is the nature of charisma and leadership. People are impressed and changed by those who seem to “get it” and “have it all”. Beauty and interrelated balance of heart, mind and being are the manifest image of God and what gets people’s attention. While many saints suffered infirmities and afflications many also had developed personal disciplines and even self-mortifaction and denial through fasting and so on to keep themselves outwardly humble and modest.

James

 

[catharina]

I know this story. That’s why I asked. Because I know both groups. We had to study them in Canon Law in graduate school.

I believe that the fact that Elizabeth Ann Seton has so many daughters is not a coincidence. The Holy Spirit works wonders through people of faith.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that he used St. Elizabeth Ann Seton to bring forth several families in the American and Canadian Church.

In truth, all of them have done well. They have been faithful to Mother Seton’s love of prayer, the poor and her love for the Church. They continue to serve the Church well and are good models of what Christian charity should be. I believe that in the end, this is what St. Vincent, St. Louise and St. Elizabeth Ann wanted. Whether it was done by one community or by several, to them the important thing was to bring Christ’s charity to all people, especially those who were in greatest need.

What many people often forget is that founders are like artists and writers. They have an end in mind when they start, but the final product often looks nothing like their original vision. Because holy men and women are always open to the guidance of the Spirit. In the end, the product is the work of the Holy Spirit.

Like Mother Teresa said, “[We] are little pencils in God’s hand.”

But you see, this is the kind of detachment that St. Francis and St. Teresa of Avila discovered through contemplation. One becomes so detached, that you even detach yourself from your own projects and they become God’s projects. You are nothing but an instrument who does good and disappears.

JR

from one of the sites on St. Elizabeth Ann:

" … By January 1812, twenty women, including Elizabeth’s sisters-in-law Harriet and Cecilia, had joined her community. They decided to follow the rule of the Sisters of Charity in France. Mother Seton wrote textbooks, translated books from French to English, trained teachers, and wrote articles on the spiritual life. As in earlier years with the Widows’ Society, Elizabeth continued to visit the sick and the poor, and the poor of the neighborhood. The sisters brought them medicine, food, and clothes, cleaned their homes, cared for the children, and offered kind words of encouragement.

In 1814 her sisters started a home in Philadelphia and cared for the children at St. Joseph’s Orphanage. Three years later they opened an orphanage in New York City, Mother Seton’s hometown. Wherever the sisters worked, they taught school. Thus, Mother Seton is sometimes considered a founder of the American parochial school system.

Mother Seton died in 1821, but the work of her sisters has steadily grown over the last 160 years. Today six separate communities of sisters trace their beginning to Emmitsburg. Five of these communities are now independently organized and are called Sisters of Charity. The sixth is the American Daughters of Charity. In 1850 these sisters united with a French order of the same name. That order is the largest order of religious in the Church, in 1982 having thirty-two thousand members across the world. The Motherhouse or headquarters of the order is in Paris, France. In the United States the Daughters of Charity staff hospitals, child-care institutions, home for the aged and handicapped, and schools at every level.

Those who knew Mother Seton realized that it was only a matter of time before she would be canonized. In 1882 James Cardinal Gibbons of Baltimore took the first step toward having Elizabeth so honored. The Church then officially began a detailed study of her life with that cause in mind. The officials learned that at least three miracles had been attributed to Elizabeth’s intercession with God. A child was miraculously cured of leukemia, a woman was similarly cured of cancer, and a man recovered miraculously from a massive brain infection.

In 1959 Pope John XXIII declared Mother Seton a Venerable, and in 1963 a Blessed. Then, on September 14, 1975, Pope Paul VI named Elizabeth Seton Saint of the Church. She became the first native-born American to be canonized. The saint’s body rests beneath an alter in the chapel of the National Shrine of St. Elizabeth Seton in Emmitsburg, Maryland, which is located in the provincial house (headquarters) of the Daughters of Charity of the Emmitsburg Province."

and from another site:

“…She was lonely, scared, rejected. She loved deeply and had children who were the light of her life. She knew what it was to be sick, and broke and homeless. She cooked and cleaned and worried over the bills. She studied her Bible and knelt in prayer. Her faith was her abiding strength. We pray the church we build will help others to know and love and serve the God she served so well.”

 

[catharina]

… and finally, from yet another site on Mother Seton :

"… 1850

Mother Seton had been dead for almost thirty years when the Sulpician priests successfully concluded negotiations for the community she had founded, the Sisters of Charity of Saint Joseph’s, to unite with the Daughters of Charity of Saint Vincent de Paul of Paris. The union took place March 25, 1850. The Sisters in Saint Joseph’s Valley changed from wearing the black cap and cape like Mother Seton for the blue-grey habit and white cornette of the French Daughters of Charity, December 8, 1851. Along with the 45,000 Daughters of Charity around the world, the sisters in Emmitsburg changed to a simplified navy blue dress and coif, September 20, 1964.

The reason for the priests of the Congregation of the Mission, the Vincentians, coming to Emmitsburg was to be the spiritual directors of the Daughters of Charity, a ministry they had always performed since the time of Saint Vincent de Paul, (1581-1660), and Louise de Marillac, (1591-1660) cofounders of the Daughters of Charity at Paris, France, in 1633. In 1849, Reverend Mariano J. Maller, C.M., (1817-1892 ), was sent to Emmitsburg to be the first director of the Daughters of Charity Province of the United States.

For the information of all, Vincent de Paul founded the Congregation of the Mission on January 25, 1625, for service to the clergy and for evangelization of the poor and charity throughout rural areas. Members of the community are also referred to as Vincentian Priests and Brothers. …"

 

[Jeanette_L]

Thank you Catharina for your additional info on St. Elizabeth Ann. I was just finishing up another chapter on her and it is wonderful having more info coming my way from several directions! I feel like I’m learning in stereo.

 

[CentralFLJames]

To those interested here is a link to excerpts from Sermons of St. John Vianney.

SERMONS OF THE CURE OF ARS EXERPTS (-St. John Vianney)

James

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

To those interested here is a link to excerpts from Sermons of St. John Vianney.

SERMONS OF THE CURE OF ARS EXERPTS (-St. John Vianney)

James

Thank you:thumbsup:

 

[Joysong]

What disappoints me a little, is not seeing the response to the title of the thread. While I truly love reading aboiut the saints’ lives, I am deeply interested in learning how to integrate their virtues in our daily lives. In other words, is the heroic practice of virtue that made them a saint applicable to us lay persons?

For instance, my lenten devotion was to read the Diary of St. Faustina, and I jotted at the back of the book all of her “hard sayings” so I could ponder them often during the year. A few toughies were:

1628 My pupil (Christ’s words to her), have great love for those who cause you suffering. Do good to those who hate you.

1695 [In response to her kind action to a difficult sister in 1694] I’m glad you behaved like my true daughter … Love everyone out of love for Me, even your greatest enemies, so that My mercy may be fully reflected in your heart.

1701 Never claim your rights. Bear with great calm and patience everything that befalls you. Do not defend yourself when you are put to shame, though innocent. Let others triumph. Do not stop being good when you notice that your goodness is being abused. I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary.

[The avoidance of self-defense was mentioned also in 1727, 270, 504, 600, 786, and 792]

279 My daughter, do not seek sympathy from creatures.

532 Today, penetrate into the spirit of My poverty and arrange everything in such a way that the most destitute will have no reason to envy you.

484 I understand how very displeased God is with an act, however commendable, that does not bear the stamp of a pure intenttion. (also in 800, 822, 1566)

789 Always and in all circumstances, yield the first place to others.

Can anyone share having tried to live any of these and found them to be spiritually of great benefit? Or are these simply a “nice” practice only for saints? To be honest, I have seen much of these counsels offered in other saints’ writings, so they must all think alike, yes?

 

[chewchoo]

What disappoints me a little, is not seeing the response to the title of the thread. While I truly love reading aboiut the saints’ lives, I am deeply interested in learning how to integrate their virtues in our daily lives. In other words, is the heroic practice of virtue that made them a saint applicable to us lay persons?
…

Can anyone share having tried to live any of these and found them to be spiritually of great benefit? Or are these simply a “nice” practice only for saints? To be honest, I have seen much of these counsels offered in other saints’ writings, so they must all think alike, yes?

we are all called to be saints.
and the fact that the saints “think alike” stems from the fact that God doesn’t contradict himself.

whether we read the bible or writings on or by the saints, we need to ponder those words and apply them to our lives.

St Francis de Sales taught that we can all attain a devout and spiritual life, whatever our position in society: holiness is not reserved for monks and hermits alone. His wrote that “religious devotion does not destroy: it perfects”, and his spiritual counsel is dedicated to making people more holy by making them more themselves.

His writings, filled with his characteristic gentle spirit, are addressed to lay people. He wants to make them understand that they too are called to be saints. As he wrote in The Introduction to the Devout Life: “It is an error, or rather a heresy, to say devotion is incompatible with the life of a soldier, a tradesman, a prince, or a married woman… It has happened that many have lost perfection in the desert who had preserved it in the world. ”

 

[Joysong]

chewchoo:

we are all called to be saints.
and the fact that the saints “think alike” stems from the fact that God doesn’t contradict himself.

So true.
Now for the next part - can any of us share that we have tried to live the heroism of the saints and found their advice to be of great benefit?

I struggled rather painfully with God’s counsel to Faustina about doing good to one’s enemy, and I read this, providentially, during a time of extreme suffering from a family member. It was so traumatic to me that I never thought I could ever forgive it. I decided to ‘try out’ the gospel advice, and I have to admit that in my situation…

THE GOSPEL WORKS!!! ALLELUIA!

I had prayed for a couple of weeks to be sure my motive was pure, that I would not be gifting to this person for any ulterior purpose such as to bribe her, cause guilty feelings for my bestowing good on her, and not expecting anything in return, even anticipating more of the same abuse, if that was to be the response.

This was the first time I ever initiated such a large gift in a response to evil, but I was prepared to accept the outcome, whichever way it turned out. I couldn’t have been more surprised at the beautiful restoration of this relationship, as we both cried and assured the other of our love. Amazing!

 

[catharina]

What disappoints me a little, is not seeing the response to the title of the thread. While I truly love reading aboiut the saints’ lives, I am deeply interested in learning how to integrate their virtues in our daily lives. In other words, is the heroic practice of virtue that made them a saint applicable to us lay persons?

For instance, my lenten devotion was to read the Diary of St. Faustina, and I jotted at the back of the book all of her “hard sayings” so I could ponder them often during the year. A few toughies were:

1628 My pupil (Christ’s words to her), have great love for those who cause you suffering. Do good to those who hate you.

1695 [In response to her kind action to a difficult sister in 1694] I’m glad you behaved like my true daughter … Love everyone out of love for Me, even your greatest enemies, so that My mercy may be fully reflected in your heart.

1701 Never claim your rights. Bear with great calm and patience everything that befalls you. Do not defend yourself when you are put to shame, though innocent. Let others triumph. Do not stop being good when you notice that your goodness is being abused. I Myself will speak up for you when it is necessary.

[The avoidance of self-defense was mentioned also in 1727, 270, 504, 600, 786, and 792]

279 My daughter, do not seek sympathy from creatures.

532 Today, penetrate into the spirit of My poverty and arrange everything in such a way that the most destitute will have no reason to envy you.

484 I understand how very displeased God is with an act, however commendable, that does not bear the stamp of a pure intenttion. (also in 800, 822, 1566)

789 Always and in all circumstances, yield the first place to others.

Can anyone share having tried to live any of these and found them to be spiritually of great benefit? Or are these simply a “nice” practice only for saints? To be honest, I have seen much of these counsels offered in other saints’ writings, so they must all think alike, yes?

Welcome. Great post.

This thread is just beginning; it will unfold over time! Meanwhile as for actions of the Saints, both Elizabeth Ann Seton and Louise de Marillac, living almost two centuries apart but both credited as co-foundresses with Vincent de Paul of the Daughters of Charity, taught this:

"Be daughters of the Church."

What directive could be more suitable or comforting for our time?
We must pray for the Pope - always.

As for your quotes from St. Faustina, yes I’ve attempted to live in the spirit of this one: “Today, penetrate into the spirit of My poverty and arrange everything in such a way that the most destitute will have no reason to envy you.” I’ll add that I’ve done this as an American and for the most part we are wealthy beyond measure compared to most of the world. However, because my life’s work has involved service of the poor, it’s been my habit to “dress down” not “up,” to care little about acquisitions that would mark me as “better than” in the eyes of some. Yes, I do recommend the practice. This habit assures me little regard from strangers too. Humility grows.

 

[Joysong]

Thank you Catharina,

There is something so special about personal witness that gives us a spur to ‘go and do likewise’ … I do appreciate these sharings from others. It blesses me to hear it, for we are sorely in need of your good example. We come to believe that it is possible in our ordinary walk of life to follow these saintly admonitions.