Saints, Mary, Paganism

[chelseyek]

I know that questions about saints and Mary have been asked on this forum many times before, but I still just need to ask…

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers? It seems, to me, to be idolatry. I know in the Bible that Mary intercedes at the wedding in Cana, when she asked Jesus to help them with the whole wine situation. But if Jesus listens to Mary then why in, Matthew 12:46-50, does Jesus pretty much deny speaking to her?

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”a

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

I also don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity when the Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

Didn’t praying to saints and Mary come from Paganism? With the worship of mutiple gods and whatnot. Most holy days come from Pagan holidays, too, right?

 

[Tom]

I know that questions about saints and Mary have been asked on this forum many times before, but I still just need to ask…

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers? It seems, to me, to be idolatry. I know in the Bible that Mary intercedes at the wedding in Cana, when she asked Jesus to help them with the whole wine situation. But if Jesus listens to Mary then why in, Matthew 12:46-50, does Jesus pretty much deny speaking to her?

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”a

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

I also don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity when the Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

Didn’t praying to saints and Mary come from Paganism? With the worship of mutiple gods and whatnot. Most holy days come from Pagan holidays, too, right?

Welcome to the forum. You’re right, it has been asked and answered several times. On the top of your screen there should be a search button, type in your question, it will take you to several threads concerning the communion of saints. No sense re-inventing the wheel.

 

[LDNCatholic]

I know that questions about saints and Mary have been asked on this forum many times before, but I still just need to ask…

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers? It seems, to me, to be idolatry. I know in the Bible that Mary intercedes at the wedding in Cana, when she asked Jesus to help them with the whole wine situation. But if Jesus listens to Mary then why in, Matthew 12:46-50, does Jesus pretty much deny speaking to her?

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”a

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

I also don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity when the Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

Didn’t praying to saints and Mary come from Paganism? With the worship of mutiple gods and whatnot. Most holy days come from Pagan holidays, too, right?

Intercession of the Saints

The Blessed Virgin Mary-Ever virgin

As for the Holy Days. No, they did not.

 

[Soutane]

Nope,nope and nope.

 

[beckycmarie]

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers?

Where in the Bible is the protestant innovation of sola scriptura?

 

[cazayoux]

Didn’t praying to saints and Mary come from Paganism?

Nope … but several other things did…
wedding rings
christmas trees
:
:
:

michel

 

[Schluns]

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

The word UNTIL had more of a literal sense. Take the 2 sentences in context. UNTIL is the duration between their marriage to the birth of a son. And he gave Him the name of Jesus.

It does not describe the period after the birth; such as saying “after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary had relations” (because they did not)

Think about it in this context: “I was sad until I saw you.” I am not saying that I was sad after I saw you, as I may not have been happy after either. I am describing the period before I saw you.

And because I am no always eloquent, here are some references to back me up.

orthodoxonline.com/ever_virginity.htm

bible.cc/matthew/1-25.htm

 

[cazayoux]

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

Please don’t think the word ‘until’ implies something after that point.

2 Sam 6:23
Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death

Would you say that Michal had children after the day of her death?

This is only one example of how the term is used in the bible in different ways.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers?

Revelation 5:8
[8] And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints;

The four living creatures are bringing the prayers of the saints to the Lamb (Jesus).

michel

 

[cazayoux]

I know in the Bible that Mary intercedes at the wedding in Cana, when she asked Jesus to help them with the whole wine situation. But if Jesus listens to Mary then why in, Matthew 12:46-50, does Jesus pretty much deny speaking to her?

I don’t see Matt 12:46-50 as Jesus denying that he spoke to Mary.
He’s not saying that Mary is NOT his mother. If anything he’s saying that she IS because she ‘does the will of [His] father in heaven’.

Jesus was perfect.
He followed the 10 commandments (HIS commandments) perfectly.
Would you say that he was less than perfect at ‘honoring is mother and father’?

michel

 

[ckempston]

I know that questions about saints and Mary have been asked on this forum many times before, but I still just need to ask…

Where in the Bible does it say that it’s okay to ask for saints’ prayers? It seems, to me, to be idolatry. I know in the Bible that Mary intercedes at the wedding in Cana, when she asked Jesus to help them with the whole wine situation. But if Jesus listens to Mary then why in, Matthew 12:46-50, does Jesus pretty much deny speaking to her?

Praying to Saints is not technically idolatry. It could be more appropriately called Necromancy (Like when Saul summoned Samuel).

46 While Jesus was still talking to the crowd, his mother and brothers stood outside, wanting to speak to him. 47 Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”a

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

I also don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity when the Bible says that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

You don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity because it makes no sense and there is no such thing. You’re not alone.

“But he (Joseph) had no union with her (Mary) UNTIL she gave birth to a son. And he gave Him the name Jesus” (Matthew 1:25).

Didn’t praying to saints and Mary come from Paganism? With the worship of mutiple gods and whatnot. Most holy days come from Pagan holidays, too, right?

I’d say you can make a pretty strong inductive argument that prayers to saints came partly out of the pagan practices of praying to many gods. Rather than completely putting aside their wordly rituals and pagan cultures, they were simply adapted into Christianity. This is a well supported fact. Why, for instance, is Christmas on December 25th when we know Jesus was born in the summer? The simplest explanation is because the Catholic church compromised with pagans and allowed them to replace their pagan holidays with “Christian” ones despite the fact that the dates and some of the practices are clearly pagan (Christmas Trees, Yule Logs, etc.)

 

[cazayoux]

Didn’t praying to saints … come from Paganism? With the worship of mutiple gods and whatnot.

We do not consider anyone as God except the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
We only ask the saints to pray FOR us.
We still pray to God, but we get others to pray for us as well.

No different from you asking your friends to pray for you.

And saints, who are in heaven, are SO much better at praying than I am.
I get hungry, distracted, tired.
The saints in heaven have no distraction from praying to God.

michel

 

[Voradin]

There is no word for Cousin in Hebrew hence they refer to them as Brothers or Sisters instead of Cousin.
Jude Thadeus was a Cousin of Jesus for an example.
does this help?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Where in the Bible is the protestant innovation of sola scriptura?

Thats not the topic of the thread.

 

[mlchance]

The problem with so many non-Catholics isn’t that they’re ignorant, but rather they know so many things that simply aren’t true. Examples:

Praying to Saints is not technically idolatry. It could be more appropriately called Necromancy (Like when Saul summoned Samuel).

You don’t understand Mary’s perpetual virginity because it makes no sense and there is no such thing. You’re not alone.

I’d say you can make a pretty strong inductive argument that prayers to saints came partly out of the pagan practices of praying to many gods.

Why, for instance, is Christmas on December 25th when we know Jesus was born in the summer?

QED

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[cazayoux]

Most holy days come from Pagan holidays, too, right?

Oh yeah … Christmas and Easter.

On the pagan origins of Easter… (spring equinox celebration)
religioustolerance.org/easter.htm

on the pagan origins of Christmas… (winter solstice celebration)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Point is … many, many things in your Christian practice have pagan origins.
one way that Christianity spread was to go to a pagan area … and hijack elements of their paganism and make them Christian.

A Christian couple that gets married in a church, do so because they are entering into a covenant with God and have the community as a witness. Wedding rings having a pagan origin in NO WAY means that this couple attaches ANY pagan meaning to their faith, or their marriage.

michel

 

[myfavoritmartin]

There is no word for Cousin in Hebrew hence they refer to them as Brothers or Sisters instead of Cousin.
Jude Thadeus was a Cousin of Jesus for an example.
does this help?

cousin see luke 1:36
G4773
συγγενής
suggenēs
soong-ghen-ace’
From G4862 and G1085; a relative (by blood); by extension a fellow countryman: - cousin, kin (-sfolk, -sman).

Brother see galatians 1:19
G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos’
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.

 

[cazayoux]

Praying to Saints is not technically idolatry. It could be more appropriately called Necromancy (Like when Saul summoned Samuel).

Necromancy would be talking to the dead.
Would you call the saints in heaven dead or alive?
I think they are MORE alive than we are.

There is only one body in Christ, right?
Is there one body in heaven and one on earth?
No.
We on earth and those in heaven are all still part of the ONE body of Christ.
We read in Revelation about our prayers being offered to Jesus by others in heaven.

michel

 

[mlchance]

Necromancy would be talking to the dead.

Necromancy is using occult practices to communicate with the dead in order to divine hidden information. It has nothing to do with Catholic teaching or practice, and only someone grossly ill-informed or deliberately deceptive could claim otherwise.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Praying to Saints is not technically idolatry. It could be more appropriately called Necromancy (Like when Saul summoned Samuel).

Or like Duet 18:9-11 Where God warns against it?

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee,thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.
10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.