Saints of the West and East

[EIF5A]

As a Protestant inquirer, I still have a hard time accepting/believing that the Holy Spirit and fullness of truth is present only in one Church.

If that’s the case, how does one account for all the saints in both Churches?

What does the West think of the Eastern saints, and vice-versa?

If the saints are/were model citizens on earth, how does one account for their pious lives and miracles attributed to them if they professed belief in their respective Churches but only one is the “real” Church?

If one joins the RCC or OC, do they have to believe that the other Church is schismatic and heretical? If so, does that mean one has to disavow the inspiration they gain from the “other” saints?

The East claims that St. Francis of Assisi was a pious man but sort of off kilter. And they draw comparison to St. Seraphim of Sarov as a more model saint.

But is it possible that God allows for differences in individual disposition, experiences, cultural events, and human quirks and still work with humanity?

(I recently came across something Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote about Julian of Norwich, and he seems to think the East can gain something from reading her writing…so I guess it’s not all cut and dry…?)

 

[BVMFatima]

As a Protestant inquirer, I still have a hard time accepting/believing that the Holy Spirit and fullness of truth is present only in one Church.

Wow that’s funny, haven’t you read 1Tim 3:15?

" I deliver this message of you so that you may know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

It does not say that the fullness of truth is present in more than one Church.

Matthew 16:18-20

And Upon this Rock I will build my (drumroll) wait for it… wait for it… CHURCH

 

[landon13]

Wow that’s funny, haven’t you read 1Tim 3:15?

" I deliver this message of you so that you may know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

It does not say that the fullness of truth is present in more than one Church.

Matthew 16:18-20

And Upon this Rock I will build my (drumroll) wait for it… wait for it… CHURCH

 

[ConstantineTG]

As a Protestant inquirer, I still have a hard time accepting/believing that the Holy Spirit and fullness of truth is present only in one Church.

If that’s the case, how does one account for all the saints in both Churches?

What does the West think of the Eastern saints, and vice-versa?

If the saints are/were model citizens on earth, how does one account for their pious lives and miracles attributed to them if they professed belief in their respective Churches but only one is the “real” Church?

If one joins the RCC or OC, do they have to believe that the other Church is schismatic and heretical? If so, does that mean one has to disavow the inspiration they gain from the “other” saints?

The East claims that St. Francis of Assisi was a pious man but sort of off kilter. And they draw comparison to St. Seraphim of Sarov as a more model saint.

But is it possible that God allows for differences in individual disposition, experiences, cultural events, and human quirks and still work with humanity?

(I recently came across something Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote about Julian of Norwich, and he seems to think the East can gain something from reading her writing…so I guess it’s not all cut and dry…?)

In icons where a multitude of holy people are depicted, you usually get images of people “in the back”, that is you see the top of their heads and part of their halo, but not their faces. This is to express the truth that there are many more holy people in heaven than what is revealed to us.

We cannot guess as to what the state of people are outside of those revealed to us by God. Orthodoxy certainly believes that we cannot pretend to have such an exclusivity mainly because God is limitless and boundless. If God through means and reasons only known to Him glorify a Buddhist, who are we to say “they can’t be a saint because they are not members in our Church”? That is very prideful and presumptuous as we cannot make the judgement for God. Note that being labelled a heretic and/or schismatic is not a condemnation of one’s soul, it doesn’t mean we are sure those people are in hell. Only God knows who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, and only God decides.

 

[chimo]

As a Protestant inquirer, I still have a hard time accepting/believing that the Holy Spirit and fullness of truth is present only in one Church.

If that’s the case, how does one account for all the saints in both Churches?

What does the West think of the Eastern saints, and vice-versa?

If the saints are/were model citizens on earth, how does one account for their pious lives and miracles attributed to them if they professed belief in their respective Churches but only one is the “real” Church?

If one joins the RCC or OC, do they have to believe that the other Church is schismatic and heretical? If so, does that mean one has to disavow the inspiration they gain from the “other” saints?

The East claims that St. Francis of Assisi was a pious man but sort of off kilter. And they draw comparison to St. Seraphim of Sarov as a more model saint.

But is it possible that God allows for differences in individual disposition, experiences, cultural events, and human quirks and still work with humanity?

(I recently came across something Bishop Kallistos Ware wrote about Julian of Norwich, and he seems to think the East can gain something from reading her writing…so I guess it’s not all cut and dry…?)

The Holy Spirit can do His work whenever someone is opened to His inspirations and directions. The saints of both East and West are telling us there is more to meet the eyes than what catechisms are there in both Churches. It is sad in one way the most of the peoples In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches really do not know the Saints of either Church. May be this is one of the reasons for their lack of knowledge or as I call commitment to discover to what makes each Church unique. This lack of knowledge however I believe will eventually be replaced by those who will take the time to discover the richest treasures that are contained in the Saints of both our Churches. It will be to the advantage for the East to seek out these Saints of the Catholic Church and it will be to the advantage for the Catholic to seek out the Saints of the Eastern Church. Why they do not do this is precisely they are not exposed to them. Once this exposure will come so will too their interests be more. (By the way you for your inquiry. It is well thought of and one of the main reasons why we need to search these saints of both East and West so that we can understand better the Christians of both East and West.)

 

[EIF5A]

Wow that’s funny, haven’t you read 1Tim 3:15?

" I deliver this message of you so that you may know how to behave in the household of God, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth."

It does not say that the fullness of truth is present in more than one Church.

Matthew 16:18-20

And Upon this Rock I will build my (drumroll) wait for it… wait for it… CHURCH

Well, the Orthodox Church seems to differ in their interpretation of papal supremacy, infallibility, etc.

And the whole “rock” business…again, different interpretation.

Can you define “church”?

Or can you define the area of the sheep pen of which Jesus is the Good Shepherd?

 

[EIF5A]

In icons where a multitude of holy people are depicted, you usually get images of people “in the back”, that is you see the top of their heads and part of their halo, but not their faces. This is to express the truth that there are many more holy people in heaven than what is revealed to us.

We cannot guess as to what the state of people are outside of those revealed to us by God. Orthodoxy certainly believes that we cannot pretend to have such an exclusivity mainly because God is limitless and boundless. If God through means and reasons only known to Him glorify a Buddhist, who are we to say “they can’t be a saint because they are not members in our Church”? That is very prideful and presumptuous as we cannot make the judgement for God. Note that being labelled a heretic and/or schismatic is not a condemnation of one’s soul, it doesn’t mean we are sure those people are in hell. Only God knows who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, and only God decides.

Which is why it’s bizarre to me that some Orthodox believers would say St. Francis didn’t exhibit saintly behavior. Who’s to say how God works with him and who’s to judge how he received and reflected the light from God?

(The Orthodox Church seems to have issues with the stigmata.)

 

[chimo]

Which is why it’s bizarre to me that some Orthodox believers would say St. Francis didn’t exhibit saintly behavior. Who’s to say how God works with him and who’s to judge how he received and reflected the light from God?

(The Orthodox Church seems to have issues with the stigmata.)

Some Orthodox do but not all. I am one Orthodox as do many at my Church who sees in Francis or even in Padre Pio that these men were gifted in receiving the stigmata. I was exposed to Francis and Padre Pio very early in my life so that I developed my own understandings and opinions. I do not for instance listen to any Orthodox who will have issues with these saints. It is to my understanding and observations (for I had lived among Catholics from my youth) that many of the Catholic Saints represents very much to what the Sufferings of our Lord Jesus goes through. The Passion is more evident in the West and can be seen in many of the Catholic saints. This is why I believe Redemptive Suffering was so well developed in the West. The Catholic Saint has gained much sanctity through sufferings and here the Catholic saint can teach us more about suffering and its value it enjoys before the Lord. The Eastern and Orthodox saint tends to go through a different process to deification and it is primarily through many ascetical exercises and struggles. The Orthodox saint will in time become defied through a “transfigured” process. Again the saint will go through what the Catholic saint will by experiencing sufferings and struggles but in a more contained area. Both Saints are defied but they have different processes to become saints for the Church. In some respects the Catholic saint goes through a much quicker process and this is why many saints of the Catholic Church were very young such as Francis, Clare and Therese were. It is to my observations that God may someday include both processes to make saints in either Church so that soon even Orthodox saints may be as young as the Catholic saint was.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

(The Orthodox Church seems to have issues with the stigmata.)

It’s interesting that those who’ve had the stigmata have had the wounds in a different place than we know Christ had them.

We know based on no broken bones & based on where they’d have to be to hold the weight of a human body that the nails were in Christ’s forearms which was a part of what was considered back then as “hands”.

Yet those with stigmata have the wounds in the location that we consider “hands” today, which is now just limited to only what which is below the wrist down to the fingers.

If Jesus truly gave a “gift” of stimata, wouldn’t he give the wounds in the correct place?

Yet, if it is a self-enduced either psycho-samatically (not sure of spelling) or physically it makes sense that those wounds would be located in that much more limited area of what we know call “hands”.

Whether someone experiences bleeding or shouldn’t be a determination factor in whether that person is a considered Saint or not. It should be based on the holy life they led & the fruit their lives produced.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I think we recognise that there are sincere and Godly men and women in different traditions despite our seperate traditions. IN the west I obviously think of, as you said, Francis of Assisi or Even Mother Teresa, but we cannot consider them saints because they were out of communion with the church. I think the same would be said of western Christians looking to the west as well.

 

[pablope]

It’s interesting that those who’ve had the stigmata have had the wounds in a different place than we know Christ had them.

How do you know where Christ had them for sure?

We know based on no broken bones & based on where they’d have to be to hold the weight of a human body that the nails were in Christ’s forearms which was a part of what was considered back then as “hands”.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Which is why it’s bizarre to me that some Orthodox believers would say St. Francis didn’t exhibit saintly behavior. Who’s to say how God works with him and who’s to judge how he received and reflected the light from God?

(The Orthodox Church seems to have issues with the stigmata.)

Well, we can only judge by our own standards, right? But again we should never lose sight that our standards are just for our own consumption, and that God is not limited by that. From the Orthodox point of view we can say that St. Francis does not qualify to be a saint in our Church, but that does not mean we’ve already concluded that he can never be in heaven. If God wants St. Francis of Assisi to be in heaven, who are we to say otherwise?

 

[ConstantineTG]

By the way, many Catholics too debate on their own saints. I know many of the Traditionalists do not agree Pope John Paul II being canonized. Even in the Orthodox Church there are debates on certain people about their Glorification.

 

[joe371]

EIF5A;10884827]As a Protestant inquirer, I still have a hard time accepting/believing that the Holy Spirit and fullness of truth is present only in one Church.

It’s not found in just one church, as per the CCC:

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

If that’s the case, how does one account for all the saints in both Churches?

Surely any church has the authority to identify certain people as saints?

What does the West think of the Eastern saints, and vice-versa?

Love them.

If the saints are/were model citizens on earth, how does one account for their pious lives and miracles attributed to them if they professed belief in their respective Churches but only one is the “real” Church?

Are you talking about just the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Church?

If one joins the RCC or OC, do they have to believe that the other Church is schismatic and heretical? If so, does that mean one has to disavow the inspiration they gain from the “other” saints?

Nah. I personally do not believe that one must disavow the inspiration they gain from the “other” saints? Just as long as the saint does not believe or teach something that contradicts the teachings of the CC. And vice-versa…

The East claims that St. Francis of Assisi was a pious man but sort of off kilter. And they draw comparison to St. Seraphim of Sarov as a more model saint.

Makes sense…

But is it possible that God allows for differences in individual disposition, experiences, cultural events, and human quirks and still work with humanity?

:yup:God also preserves and transmits truth via His Church. Of course it’s up to each and every individual to find Jesus’ one church. But again, truth is not limited to Jesus’ one church: **many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church…****Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation.
**

 

[joe371]

In icons where a multitude of holy people are depicted, you usually get images of people “in the back”, that is you see the top of their heads and part of their halo, but not their faces. This is to express the truth that there are many more holy people in heaven than what is revealed to us.

We cannot guess as to what the state of people are outside of those revealed to us by God. Orthodoxy certainly believes that we cannot pretend to have such an exclusivity mainly because God is limitless and boundless. If God through means and reasons only known to Him glorify a Buddhist, who are we to say “they can’t be a saint because they are not members in our Church”? That is very prideful and presumptuous as we cannot make the judgement for God. Note that being labelled a heretic and/or schismatic is not a condemnation of one’s soul, it doesn’t mean we are sure those people are in hell. Only God knows who goes to hell and who goes to heaven, and only God decides.

 

[joe371]

The Holy Spirit can do His work whenever someone is opened to His inspirations and directions. The saints of both East and West are telling us there is more to meet the eyes than what catechisms are there in both Churches. It is sad in one way the most of the peoples In the Catholic and Orthodox Churches really do not know the Saints of either Church. May be this is one of the reasons for their lack of knowledge or as I call commitment to discover to what makes each Church unique. This lack of knowledge however I believe will eventually be replaced by those who will take the time to discover the richest treasures that are contained in the Saints of both our Churches. It will be to the advantage for the East to seek out these Saints of the Catholic Church and it will be to the advantage for the Catholic to seek out the Saints of the Eastern Church. Why they do not do this is precisely they are not exposed to them. Once this exposure will come so will too their interests be more. (By the way you for your inquiry. It is well thought of and one of the main reasons why we need to search these saints of both East and West so that we can understand better the Christians of both East and West.)

Nicely stated Chimo.

 

[joe371]

I think we recognise that there are sincere and Godly men and women in different traditions despite our seperate traditions. IN the west I obviously think of, as you said, Francis of Assisi or Even Mother Teresa, but we cannot consider them saints because they were out of communion with the church. I think the same would be said of western Christians looking to the west as well.

:yup: At least I think…