Saints prayed- Horrible deaths

[Jubilarian]

Yes you are right about faith . Nevertheless, Atheists say things that I do understand, and this topic is one of them.

 

[georget]

Yes you are right about faith . Nevertheless, Atheists say things that I do understand, and this topic is one of them.

Good luck.
God bless

 

[GLam8833]

Jesus spoke about this very thing when He stated:
If anyone would come after me, let him/her:

1. Deny himself,
2. take up his cross,
   and
3. follow Me.

There are three possible ways to DIE:

1. give up your instinctive resonse to defend your
   right to a painless death.
2. give ourselves for another person or a cause which is altruistic.
   OR:
3. Die the best way, as Christ chose, ACCORDING
   to God’s Merciful, Righteous and Just way, the
   perfect FITTING way, just as each time you look at
   a crucifix, Jesus was MADE to die on a Cross, there
   is a PERFECT WAY for each one of us, too, which
   is God’s holy merciful, right and just way!!!

 

[Thomas_White]

Jesus spoke about this very thing when He stated:
If anyone would come after me, let him/her:

1. Deny himself,
2. take up his cross,
   and
3. follow Me.

There are three possible ways to DIE:

1. give up your instinctive resonse to defend your
   right to a painless death.
2. give ourselves for another person or a cause which is altruistic.
   OR:
3. Die the best way, as Christ chose, ACCORDING
   to God’s Merciful, Righteous and Just way, the
   perfect FITTING way, just as each time you look at
   a crucifix, Jesus was MADE to die on a Cross, there
   is a PERFECT WAY for each one of us, too, which
   is God’s holy merciful, right and just way!!!

There is much more to it. We do not by any means necessarily chose the way we will die. What if a person is struck by lightening, or an airplane crashes into their house, or they are killed in a traffic accident resulting from the negligence of another, or they suffer an incurable disease or are aborted while in their mother’s womb?

Where is the choice in any of that? It happens many times every single day.

 

[GLam8833]

I believe, thru PRAYER, we can control what
way we die, the way a Just, merciful and right-
eous God will have us die!!!

 

[Jubilarian]

There is much more to it. We do not by any means necessarily chose the way we will die. What if a person is struck by lightening, or an airplane crashes into their house, or they are killed in a traffic accident resulting from the negligence of another, or they suffer an incurable disease or are aborted while in their mother’s womb?

Where is the choice in any of that? It happens many times every single day.

good point. As to prayer, I will remain perplexed about how it works. Why pray if the outcome is already known by God? Unless you go so deep as to say God knew you were going to pray , hence a particular event comes to pass.

 

[Thomas_White]

good point. As to prayer, I will remain perplexed about how it works. Why pray if the outcome is already known by God? Unless you go so deep as to say God knew you were going to pray , hence a particular event comes to pass.

This is an interesting point, and perhaps ‘difficult’ would be a better word. A core Carholic belief is free will. God is omniscient. He knows everything there is to know, and therefore He knows the outcome for each of us. What the Cathoilc faith does not believe in is predestination. While God knows everything, He has given us free will. He knows the outcome, but the outcome is the result of our actions. It is not determined by God. If we decide to do something either moral or immoral, He knows it and He also know what will result. But what we will do is of our own free will.

To say that God has a plan for each us really isn’t Catholic belief. God is also omnipotent, or all powerful. He gave to us the free will to determine our own outcome, be it salvation or condemnation. This outcome is not God’s choice. It might seem heretical to say such a thing, but it is not. It is not God’s choice only because He chose to give us free will. We can pray to God and seek to save ourselves. And God knows whether or not we will do this. But He has given to us the free will to decide what the choice will be. This is God’s true plan, and it is about everything, which is to say it is about our temporal existence.

Why God created this plan and our souls is a mystery, or at least it is for me. But that He wants us to please Him–indeed to love Him–by behaving in what He has determined (with good reason) is a moral way is clear enough. Love is an emotion and that we can please God would seem to reveal something of His nature.

 

[GLam8833]

Love is an emotion and that we can please God would seem to reveal something of His nature.

To clarify… Love is MORE than an emotion, it is a PERSON!!!
reminds me of the song:

“Love lifted on the Cross for me,
my Life, my hope, my salvation!!!”

 

[the_phoenix]

Love is a choice.

 

[Jubilarian]

This is an interesting point, and perhaps ‘difficult’ would be a better word. A core Carholic belief is free will. God is omniscient. He knows everything there is to know, and therefore He knows the outcome for each of us. What the Cathoilc faith does not believe in is predestination. While God knows everything, He has given us free will. He knows the outcome, but the outcome is the result of our actions. It is not determined by God. If we decide to do something either moral or immoral, He knows it and He also know what will result. But what we will do is of our own free will.

To say that God has a plan for each us really isn’t Catholic belief. God is also omnipotent, or all powerful. He gave to us the free will to determine our own outcome, be it salvation or condemnation. This outcome is not God’s choice. It might seem heretical to say such a thing, but it is not. It is not God’s choice only because He chose to give us free will. We can pray to God and seek to save ourselves. And God knows whether or not we will do this. But He has given to us the free will to decide what the choice will be. This is God’s true plan, and it is about everything, which is to say it is about our temporal existence.

Why God created this plan and our souls is a mystery, or at least it is for me. But that He wants us to please Him–indeed to love Him–by behaving in what He has determined (with good reason) is a moral way is clear enough. Love is an emotion and that we can please God would seem to reveal something of His nature.

This is an excellent response, thank you. Since God knows the result of our actions, would it be fair to say that he knew our eternal destination before the world began?

 

[Thomas_White]

This is an excellent response, thank you. Since God knows the result of our actions, would it be fair to say that he knew our eternal destination before the world began?

Yes, I believe so.

With that in mind, one might wonder why God would create a soul destined to eternal condemnation. I don’t know the answer. There are surely things we either do not know or cannot yet fully understand. What was the heavenly struggle involving Satin and the fallen angels about, how and why did it occur and what does it mean? In some way, it would seem that both good and evil are potentialities and that this is manifest in Creation. I don’t pretend to understand it, but it seems we are caught up in it and our existence is part of this struggle. It just seems that way to me, but I cannot explain it.

In the Prologue of the book ‘God and the World’, then Cardinal Ratzinger said (it was during an interview) that God has not yet fully revealed to us or even to the Church all there is to know, and that revelation will continue with each generation. I believe it. The Gospel tells us that Christ will reveal the full revelation only with the Last Judgement.

 

[Jubilarian]

Extremely enlightening , and a little scary I must admit. I’ve always suspected that God would know our fate since the foundation of the world but some have not agreed with my opinion. I don’t believe that some Protetant denominations hold to that (and even officially the CC). Your answer is thought provoking and the surrounding information is solid from my perspective. I look foward to seeing you around on the forum.

 

[Thomas_White]

I said in my earlier comment above that it is not really Catholic belief that God has a plan for each of us. What I meant is that God has not planned what we will do with respect to our free will and its consequences. I would clarify that by noting it is Catholic belief that each of us has a vocation, be it the priesthood or fisherman. I cannot explain why this is so, but it seems there are things we do not yet understand. It is why faith is important, I think. Also in a comment above. I raised the question of why God would create a soul “destined” for eternal condemnation. This wasn’t the best word to use in its context, and it was not meant to imply predestination. I only meant that God knows the outcome for us but not that it is predetermined by God. It is in this sense that the outcome could be said to be our destiny since it is what will happen with us.

This remains for me a mystery. Again, it is my belief that revelation has not yet been fully revealed to us, and this fact is in scripture. What this means is that there are things we cannot yet know and that human reason cannot reveal to us. In this way, it seems faith is essential and that faith in God is necessary for us to gain salvation.

 

[Jubilarian]

I understand your points and I did not think you were espousing predestination . I always had trouble with embracing the commonly spouted words, “God has a plan for your life” however. I need to do some more study on that.

 

[Thomas_White]

I understand your points and I did not think you were espousing predestination . I always had trouble with embracing the commonly spouted words, “God has a plan for your life” however. I need to do some more study on that.

‘Infinity’ and ‘eternity’ do not mean the same thing. ‘Eternity’ is often defined as having a beginning but no ending. This would apply, for example, to our souls which were created by God. This concept is not so difficult to comprehend.

But what of God? There is the Doxology:

“Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.”

The prayer speaks of “in the beginning” and thus of eternity. So far, not even the most advanced concepts of physics have been able to adequately explain “the beginning”. It remains theory and beyond human understanding. For Catholics, it is a matter of faith.

There is obviously Creation, and here we are. The question becomes is God infinite (that is has God always existed and without a beginning)? If so, this is outside of time and not easily comprehended by human understanding. If not, how did “the beginning” occur? I don’t know. Although it seems to baffle everyone, the “infinite” model nevertheless seems more likely to me. As such, it is a matter of faith.

In this way, I would say God existed before Creation and knew the outcome for us before Creation. But it is belief. The best (but imperfect) analogy I can think of is that it is as though God were watching a movie He has seen before. As He watches the movie, He knows what will happen but He is not causing it to happen.

But yet there is the Doxolology Prayer, and it cannot be ignored. Is it speaking only of Creation, of the beginning, or is it speaking of the existence of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit too? That the prayer includes the words “world without end” would seem to be a reference to Creation and thus to Eternity.