Saints vision of hell

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Terrifying but very important to know. :sad_yes:

God bless :byzsoc:

David
 
Very interesting ???
To me read this is hell…
Sincerely it leads nowhere. Do we get better out of fear of hell?
 
Very interesting ???
To me read this is hell…
Sincerely it leads nowhere. Do we get better out of fear of hell?
Would you wear a seatbelt because you were told so? Or because they said it prevents further injury and possibly death in an accident?

I agree that the message should be more positive, but some people would react better in knowing what they are avoiding. If you look at history, we really don’t better ourselves unless we have gone through our own little hell.
 
Yes. :sad_yes:
Except that perfect contrition makes us want to be good out of love of God, not fear of hell, which is imperfect contrition.

We are all sinners and we should all aim for perfect contrition. Usually, if I offend my spouse, I am sorry not because I expect she’ll hit me over the head with a rolling pin, but because I love her and feel bad that I made her feel bad.

I guess for some though, as they mature in faith they must necessarily pass through a phase of doing good out of fear of hell.

But give me some of that old-fashioned religion… NOT!
 
Sure fear of Hell is important, but Love of GOD is absolutley neccisary.
thats why im going to work on my Perfect Contrition with my group!
Its very handy. Though i do mess it up by doing something wrong AGAIN…
 
There are contradictions in our faith. We are told different things by different role models (some being saints) in the catholic church.

Teresa of Avila alludes strongly in the link in this thread that Lutherans are “lost souls”. In context she implies they will go the awful place of which she describes. Yet we are told that we are not to fear for “our brothers and sisters in the faith”, meaning our protestant brothers and sisters. That they will be judged by how they lived based on the graces they were given.

It cannot be both ways. So many contradictions.
 
There are contradictions in our faith. We are told different things by different role models (some being saints) in the catholic church.

Teresa of Avila alludes strongly in the link in this thread that Lutherans are “lost souls”. In context she implies they will go the awful place of which she describes. Yet we are told that we are not to fear for “our brothers and sisters in the faith”, meaning our protestant brothers and sisters. That they will be judged by how they lived based on the graces they were given.

It cannot be both ways. So many contradictions.
I don’t observe any contradiction, but rather speculation and private interpretation. Since we are not bound to believe in St Teresa’s vision, we are certainly not bound to hold fast to her conjecture of that vision’s meaning for others. Contrarily, the Church teaches that the Mercy of God can extend beyond the sacraments, beyond the Church itself, to those who, as you said, “lived based on the graces they were given”.
 
There are contradictions in our faith. We are told different things by different role models (some being saints) in the catholic church.

Teresa of Avila alludes strongly in the link in this thread that Lutherans are “lost souls”. In context she implies they will go the awful place of which she describes. Yet we are told that we are not to fear for “our brothers and sisters in the faith”, meaning our protestant brothers and sisters. That they will be judged by how they lived based on the graces they were given.

It cannot be both ways. So many contradictions.
I don’t see this as a contradiction at all. I think St Teresa was speaking of Lutherans in this message as a generalization of some of the “fallen away” Catholics that followed Luther and that they became hard of heart at ended up where they should have. She was extremely careful to be sure that anything that she wrote was strictly in line with the Church. It doesn’t by any means mean that all Lutherans became “lost souls”, only that by turning away from the Church some became immersed in false teaching and actually turned away from embracing reconciliation. Unfortunately this is still the case today, as many go around speaking of Christ and his message but because of their hard hearts, reject the true repentance offered by Christ to the disciples the first time he appeared after the resurrection. This was Christ’s first order of business to breathe the gift of the Holy Spirit and allow them to forgive on Christ’s behalf.

I would like to hear anything else you have a concern with in regards to contraditions.
 
Thank you Jesus for being our Savior, and may You grant us the grace we need to resist temptation.
 
I think these fearmongering “visions” do little good. Hell is simply the absence of God. If we truly knew what that ment all these place/time things would seem insignigant.
 
I don’t see this as a contradiction at all. I think St Teresa was speaking of Lutherans in this message as a generalization of some of the “fallen away” Catholics that followed Luther and that they became hard of heart at ended up where they should have. She was extremely careful to be sure that anything that she wrote was strictly in line with the Church. It doesn’t by any means mean that all Lutherans became “lost souls”, only that by turning away from the Church some became immersed in false teaching and actually turned away from embracing reconciliation. Unfortunately this is still the case today, as many go around speaking of Christ and his message but because of their hard hearts, reject the true repentance offered by Christ to the disciples the first time he appeared after the resurrection. This was Christ’s first order of business to breathe the gift of the Holy Spirit and allow them to forgive on Christ’s behalf.

I would like to hear anything else you have a concern with in regards to contraditions.
I appreciate this because it shows confidence in your faith. Unfortunately I do see contradictions. We may not agree they are contradictions but, perhaps a better term, drastic differing interpretations.

Most christians, including catholics hold C.S.Lewis in high regard. Lewis’s rendition of hell in his highly proclaimed book The Great Divorce, is dramatically different from the saints rendition (Or thier so called “visions”) of hell.

I must say I like Lewis’s better. But Lewis is not claiming a vision. These Saints are Saints because we consider them of heroic virtue. This coulc be interpreted as saying we firmly believe what they profess as true. Else they would not be a Saint. Therefore they were either deceived or delusional, or it is real.

“People who go to hell chose it for themselves”. I undersand the arguements for this (in my opinion) ridiculous statement. We may say that thier actions in life purchased them hell, but we cannot say with any logic what so ever that anyone chose to have thier skin picked apart by red hot pokers for all eternity something they knowingly chose.

The biggest contradiction I experience is a numbers game actually. When we truly consider what is mortal sin and truly determine who is in a state of mortal sin, this leaves very few indeed in a state of grace. When we consider people as a whole. I include self proclaimed catholics in this statement. Yet we act as though everyone goes to heaven. We tell ourselves we are in a joyful religion. The logic and the numbers do not add up. I find this a contradiction.

It may be a miss understanding. The individuals for the most part in these forums are quick to suggest most people are in a state of mortal sin. And if one closely examines the cathecism one would have to agree. But my one on ones with some priests seem to suggest otherwise. “If you commited a mortal sin, you’d know it” suggest one Friar I had a discussion with. From his perspective we all have reason for reasonable hope. From the perspective of most regulars in these forums, many/most/possibly near all, are damned.

Thanks for asking, I do appreciate it. I am not the sarcastic type, my concerns are genuine.
 
Very interesting ???
To me read this is hell…
Sincerely it leads nowhere. Do we get better out of fear of hell?
If fear of hell gets you into the confessional it’s well worth it. Imperfect contrition is a good place to start.
 
There are contradictions in our faith. We are told different things by different role models (some being saints) in the catholic church.

Teresa of Avila alludes strongly in the link in this thread that Lutherans are “lost souls”. In context she implies they will go the awful place of which she describes. Yet we are told that we are not to fear for “our brothers and sisters in the faith”, meaning our protestant brothers and sisters. That they will be judged by how they lived based on the graces they were given.

It cannot be both ways. So many contradictions.
I guess that’s why we don’t have to believe private revelations. One thing that has always bothered me about the consensus among the Church Fathers is the little number of the redeemed. I have a very hard time reconciling the though of an all loving God condeming to vast majority of souls to hell. Recently I was reading the Haydock commentary on Zac. 13:8 which states that the greatest part of humanity will be lost. Only adherence to the Catholic Faith can save, Jews and pagans cannot be saved. This confuses me because a great part of mankind are truly invincibly ignorant through no fault of their own.
 
I guess that’s why we don’t have to believe private revelations. One thing that has always bothered me about the consensus among the Church Fathers is the little number of the redeemed. I have a very hard time reconciling the though of an all loving God condeming to vast majority of souls to hell. Recently I was reading the Haydock commentary on Zac. 13:8 which states that the greatest part of humanity will be lost. Only adherence to the Catholic Faith can save, Jews and pagans cannot be saved. This confuses me because a great part of mankind are truly invincibly ignorant through no fault of their own.
Yet, interestingly, this disclaimer is found in the online Haydock commentary:

The modern reader should be cautioned that this older commentary uses some archaic language and spellings and at times it seems to express some rather harsh opinions concerning Protestants and Jews. Regarding the proper Catholic opinions with respect to Protestants and Jews, the reader is encouraged to look into more modern and authoritative treatments, such as the documents of the Second Vatican Council and Pope John Paul II’s Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Seems to me that perhaps if we search diligently enough, we will likely find as many mercy-themed opinions as we find condemnation-themed opinions. Thus, one can only conclude that we are probably meant to not be overly worried about the numbers, and get on with living our lives as best we know how to.
 
Yet, interestingly, this disclaimer is found in the online Haydock commentary:

The modern reader should be cautioned that this older commentary uses some archaic language and spellings and at times it seems to express some rather harsh opinions concerning Protestants and Jews. Regarding the proper Catholic opinions with respect to Protestants and Jews, the reader is encouraged to look into more modern and authoritative treatments, such as the documents of the Second Vatican Council and Pope John Paul II’s Catechism of the Catholic Church.

.
The problem I see with a disclaimer such as this is that it seems to follow what most reverent catholics condemn which is a “progressive” approach to theology. We want to label “progressives” as relativists.

If we change our doctrine on the fly where do we draw the line? Slightly altering doctrine over time to suit ones needs can be a slippery slope. It probably is the method that gives us a sexually active homosexual christian community. If we change over time, where does it end?

It is clear that the “who is going where” debate has grown much more lax over time. Yet the Truth of this matter could not have changed over time. I think this is evidence that neither we, nor the church fathers nor the modern day theologians (JPII included) know the answer.

The question emerges, why did God make this so terribly unclear to us?
 
It’s writings like these that turn me off from Catholicism completely.

I know I will probably burn in hell; In a way these saints help me prepare for it. what a terror!
 
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