Saints who chose wrong vocation?

[elizabeth_anne_1]

I was just thinking about this question I posed and have concluded that it is impossible to chose the wrong vocation.

Proof: Anything we choose and accomplish has already been willed by God’s immutable will to occur. We cannot choose anything were it not for God to will it so.

Is this correct? Thanks

Hi! I don’t think this is true. What about sin? What about people who persist in sin to their perdition? NOT willed by God.

I do not think, however, that anyone with good will and an openness to what God wants needs to “worry” about choosing the “wrong” vocation. God will lead. He wants us to know our vocation. Even were we to choose the vocation he did not explicitly will for us He will work it out for good. He is that amazing!

In order to increase your chances of finding your right vocation I suggest spending time in prayer- especially Mass, Adoration and prayers to the Blessed Mother. Also, a wise spiritual director is very important for discernment.

 

[JReducation]

I was just thinking about this question I posed and have concluded that it is impossible to chose the wrong vocation.

Proof: Anything we choose and accomplish has already been willed by God’s immutable will to occur. We cannot choose anything were it not for God to will it so.

Is this correct? Thanks

Hi! I don’t think this is true. What about sin? What about people who persist in sin to their perdition? NOT willed by God.

I do not think, however, that anyone with good will and an openness to what God wants needs to “worry” about choosing the “wrong” vocation. God will lead. He wants us to know our vocation. Even were we to choose the vocation he did not explicitly will for us He will work it out for good. He is that amazing!

In order to increase your chances of finding your right vocation I suggest spending time in prayer- especially Mass, Adoration and prayers to the Blessed Mother. Also, a wise spiritual director is very important for discernment.

For the theological answer to this question, read post 12.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[PrayRosary]

I don’t know if this counts, and I’m sure you know this already… but Blessed Louis Martin intended to enter the Augustinian Monastery of the Great St Bernard, but was rejected. Blessed Marie-Azélie Guérin wanted to become a nun, but was rejected by the Sisters of Charity of St. Vincent de Paul. They married and had 5 surviving daughters, who all became nuns. One of them was St. Thérèse of Lisieux

Thats pretty cool:thumbsup:

 

[TiggerS]

I was just thinking about this question I posed and have concluded that it is impossible to chose the wrong vocation.

Proof: Anything we choose and accomplish has already been willed by God’s immutable will to occur. We cannot choose anything were it not for God to will it so.

Is this correct? Thanks

A vocation or call from God is only ever an invitation to achieve holiness and Unity with Him on a certain path or vocation - it is not a Divine Command resulting in some sort of offence against God if we do not take up that invitation. If for any reason whatsoever we do not take up God’s original (or any) invitation, this does not mean that God withdraws from us all the Graces necessary to achieve holiness and Unity with Him.

Hence, while it is indeed possible to choose the ‘wrong’ vocation or path or fail to take up God’s invitation, it is impossible for this to be an offence or some type of sin. God is not mean or mean minded, if we fail to follow His invitation for whatever reason, He does not withdraw all the Grace necessary to achieve holiness and Unity with Him (our unique identity in Him) on that path or vocation which we do follow.

All things either come about through God’s Direct Will in all the good and His Permissive Will in all the negative. God only permits negative or evil to occur in this world on any level because He can bring a greater good out of that negative or evil.

Catholic Catechism:
**412 But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.” And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, "There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. **Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"

TS

 

[JReducation]

OK folks, let’s stop speculating and go back to college, Phil 101.

Proposition 1: A vocation is a call

Proposition 2: God calls man to holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, if one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness.

Proposition 3: If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness

Proposition 4: Saints have achieved great holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, saints responded to God’s call.

Question: Is it possible for a saint to respond to the wrong call?

Answer: No. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have achieved holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Geremia]

The call (vocation) is to do what is before us with great love and extraordinary perseverence.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you Br. JR for this and everything else in your post I have not quoted in reply. I just now read it! Great examples, too Thank you

 

[Geremia]

God called him to be St. Anthony.

I just now understood this to have an emphasis on the “St.” because God didn’t call St. Anthony to just be Anthony. God doesn’t call us to be our old sinning selves. He wants us to amend our lives and continually convert (turn) toward Him.

 

[JReducation]

I just now understood this to have an emphasis on the “St.” because God didn’t call St. Anthony to just be Anthony. God doesn’t call us to be our old sinning selves. He wants us to amend our lives and continually convert (turn) toward Him.

Yes, but to become St. Anthony he went through several stages. He was born Ferdinand the Mayor’s son.

He joins the Augustinian Caons in Lisbon.

From there he transfers to the Augustinian monks.

Then he cuts a deal with the Franciscan superior in Lisbon. “If you let me go to the missions, I’ll join your order.” The Franciscan superior promises to send him to the missions.

This is actually funny, because Ferdinand knew that if he became a Franciscan he could not ask to go to the missions. Franciscans do not ask for assignments. They go where they’re sent. So he asked first and then entered.

He went back and asked for a dispensation from his vows as an Augustinian monk.

He joins the Franciscans and becomes a Franciscan Brother. That’s when his name is changed from Ferdinand to Brother Anthony.

He is sent to the missions, but never gets there. He gets sick andhas to come back.

When he gets back he goes to the General Chapter of the order, where he hopes to meet the Holy Father, Brother Francis of Assisi. However, Brother Francis decides to ignore him and refuses to be introduced to him. Anthony is very sad. He truly wanted to meet the spiritual father of the order and the father did not want to give him the time of day.

To make matters worse, the General Chapter ended and the brothers were packing to go back to their respective mission stations and Anthony has no place to go. Remember, he had just come back from a failed mission trip. He’s in Assisi. He had entered the order in Lisbon. Assisi is a long way from Lisbon. He has no money and no way of getting back to Lisbon. He wants to get Francis’ help, but Francis will not deal with him.

Not knowing what to do, young Brother Anthony sits down to pray over his dilemma. Here he is, a religious brother with no place to go. Suddenly two brothers from Padua approach him and feeling sorry for him, they invite him to go with them.

He goes off to Padua. Keep in mind that while he was an Augustinian he had become a Scripture Scholar, but the Franciscans did not know this. He was not about to let them in on it, because Francis had banned scholars and was about to ban priests. Anthony was not a priest, but he was a scholar.

One day, he is asked to give a little talk at an ordination of a Dominican. He gives such an inspring talk that word gets back to Francis. Francis says nothing . He is waiting for one more sign. It finally comes. Anthony writes a letter asking for permission to teach theology to the brothers.

Francis finally shows his great love for this very humble brother who had put up with so much. He gives him permission to set up the first house of theology in the order and he also gives him permission to become a priest. That’s how Anthony becomes the man with the golden tongue. He was the holiest of preachers. What Francis commanded him was never to offend the sensibilities of the heretics. Anthony found a way around that.

If he walked into a town and someone was preaching that the Eucharist was false and unnecessary, Anthony would setup his post on the other side of town and use the scritpures to reach about the truth of the Eucharist and the need for the Eucharist, without ever calling the guy over there a heretic. He knew that Francis would have his head if he offended the heretics. He was to preach the truth without offending and without conflicts.

He finally dies, at around age 33, a very holy man. He has become the man that Christ meant him to be. He had become Brother Anthony of Padua, the great theolocal doctor and the most humble and charitable scholar. It was not his scholarship that earned him his title, Brother Anthony. It was his fidelity to each prompting from the Holy Spirit as it came, little by little.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

God always writes straight, sometimes with crooked lines it can seem to human understanding.

He finally dies, at around age 33, a very holy man. He has become the man that Christ meant him to be. He had become Brother Anthony of Padua, the great theolocal doctor and the most humble and charitable scholar. It was not his scholarship that earned him his title, Brother Anthony.** It was his fidelity to each prompting from the Holy Spirit as it came, little by little.
**

Spot on! The Unfolding Will of God and Divine Providence.

 

[goforgoal]

QUOTE=JReducation;8036008]OK folks, let’s stop speculating and go back to college, Phil 101.

Proposition 1: A vocation is a call

Proposition 2: God calls man to holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, if one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness.

Proposition 3: If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness

Proposition 4: Saints have achieved great holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, saints responded to God’s call.

Question: Is it possible for a saint to respond to the wrong call?

Answer: No. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have achieved holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Wise and truthful words.

I know I mentioned the following Sr. Francoise Therese (Leonie Martin–St. Therese’s sister), Blessed Margaret of Castello, and Blessed Bartolo Longo they did not necessarily choose the wrong vocations but like you stated a vocation is a call from God to acheive holiness.

However, what if one has the call to become enter the Priesthood or Religious life but one cannot because of age or health problems.

How does one acheive holiness then?

(I’m not speaking for myself but for the many people)

As for myself, I often wonder am ignoring God’s call? I feel <–(but then again feelings come and go) I believe that Our Lord is calling me to be a Discalced Carmelite Nun.

It’s been 3 years since I went there, the last letter I wrote to them was in December, and the third or fourth week of June I called them <—The Carmelite Sister that answered
the phone is from a different country so it was difficult for me to understand her, she also was talking very quiet (I noticed this with the other Carmelite Sisters there they have a peaceful and quiet way of communicating) so I could barely hear her.

She also seemed liked she was in hurry or didn’t want to talk

Which confuses me because it does state on their website to contact/phone them.

Therefore, I didn’t really get to explain that I would like to return if it’s God’s Holy will and mercy.

Now, I’m not saying it’s Sister’s fault it could be that she had things to do and Rev. Mother is gravely ill so perhaps she (along with the other Sisters are taking care of her)

I’m not much of a phone person so I’m thinking of writing another letter.

It could be our old cordless phones as well.

Okay, lets get to the point it’s been 3 years since going to Carmelite, this past December I wrote them a letter (no response), and last month I called them. So,

a) Am I ignoring God by not living a life of Carmelite?

b) Am I wasting my time by being here?

c) Am I waiting patiently?

I know I mentioned on several CAF posts and threads the Discalced Carmelite Nuns in Armstrong, B.C., Canada but I have been seriously considering contacting another group of Discacled Carmelite Nuns.

I know a lot of people recommend sticking to one order not shopping around. I am sticking with the same order just not the same location.

d) Should I stick with the same Carmelites? or Contact a different one?

I only want to do what is pleasing to the Lord.

 

[JReducation]

QUOTE=JReducation;8036008]OK folks, let’s stop speculating and go back to college, Phil 101.

Proposition 1: A vocation is a call

Proposition 2: God calls man to holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, if one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness.

Proposition 3: If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness

Proposition 4: Saints have achieved great holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, saints responded to God’s call.

Question: Is it possible for a saint to respond to the wrong call?

Answer: No. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have achieved holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Wise and truthful words.

I know I mentioned the following Sr. Francoise Therese (Leonie Martin–St. Therese’s sister), Blessed Margaret of Castello, and Blessed Bartolo Longo they did not necessarily choose the wrong vocations but like you stated a vocation is a call from God to acheive holiness.

However, what if one has the call to become enter the Priesthood or Religious life but one cannot because of age or health problems.

How does one acheive holiness then?

(I’m not speaking for myself but for the many people)

As for myself, I often wonder am ignoring God’s call? I feel <–(but then again feelings come and go) I believe that Our Lord is calling me to be a Discalced Carmelite Nun.

It’s been 3 years since I went there, the last letter I wrote to them was in December, and the third or fourth week of June I called them <—The Carmelite Sister that answered
the phone is from a different country so it was difficult for me to understand her, she also was talking very quiet (I noticed this with the other Carmelite Sisters there they have a peaceful and quiet way of communicating) so I could barely hear her.

She also seemed liked she was in hurry or didn’t want to talk

Which confuses me because it does state on their website to contact/phone them.

Therefore, I didn’t really get to explain that I would like to return if it’s God’s Holy will and mercy.

Now, I’m not saying it’s Sister’s fault it could be that she had things to do and Rev. Mother is gravely ill so perhaps she (along with the other Sisters are taking care of her)

I’m not much of a phone person so I’m thinking of writing another letter.

It could be our old cordless phones as well.

Okay, lets get to the point it’s been 3 years since going to Carmelite, this past December I wrote them a letter (no response), and last month I called them. So,

a) Am I ignoring God by not living a life of Carmelite?

b) Am I wasting my time by being here?

c) Am I waiting patiently?

I know I mentioned on several CAF posts and threads the Discalced Carmelite Nuns in Armstrong, B.C., Canada but I have been seriously considering contacting another group of Discacled Carmelite Nuns.

I know a lot of people recommend sticking to one order not shopping around. I am sticking with the same order just not the same location.

d) Should I stick with the same Carmelites? or Contact a different one?

I only want to do what is pleasing to the Lord.

To answer your first question, if a person feels called to a particular way of life and he cannot do it, because of health or other circumstances out of his control, then he is not called. God is a merciful God. He does not tease us. Therefore, he will never call us where we cannot go. It is common for us to have a crush on a way of life, just as we often have crush on a boy or girl.

Moving along to your case, it sounds as if you’ve done everything you can to communicate with this particular Carmel. Once again, if you have done what you can and nothing has come of it, then this is not the place for you. It may be another Carmel or another way of life. Unless you try, you won’t know. If you’re still drawn to Carmel, try another. Remember Therese. It was not easy for her to enter Carmel. She prayed and she asked the Church. To everyone’s surprise, the regulations were dispensed and she was allowed to enter. There have been other holy men and women who never entered religious life, such as Therese’s parents. However, they became Secular Franciscans and followed Francis’ very closely. Now they are Blesseds.

I will pray for you and ask that you pray for me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[narrowgatequest]

OK folks, let’s stop speculating and go back to college, Phil 101.

Proposition 1: A vocation is a call

Proposition 2: God calls man to holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, if one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness.

Proposition 3: If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness

Proposition 4: Saints have achieved great holiness

Conclusion: Therefore, saints responded to God’s call.

Question: Is it possible for a saint to respond to the wrong call?

Answer: No. Otherwise, they wouldn’t have achieved holiness.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I have a case that may or may not have ever occurred, but it’s interesting to think about nonetheless. Take the example of St. Augustine. He spent years living in sin before he finally had his conversion and became the great St. Augustine we all know about. What if a saint, like St. Augustine, started out life in a less than holy manner. We’ll call them St. Bob. St. Bob grows up in the church but during his teens and early twenties he falls into sin. God calls him to become a Franciscan but he says no, he wants to party and sleep around. He falls in love with one of his girlfriends and together they have a conversion experience and they marry and become very holy people and Secular Dominicans and they have a child who becomes a saint, etc. Then, could you say St. Bob was wrong not to become a Franciscan when God called him? He turned away from God’s will, but later on he ended up becoming a saint through a different means. Therefore “If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness” happened for Bob the second time, not the first time. Again, I don’t know if this has ever happened, but I don’t think it’s impossible, since many saints have started out as great sinners.

 

[JReducation]

I have a case that may or may not have ever occurred, but it’s interesting to think about nonetheless. Take the example of St. Augustine. He spent years living in sin before he finally had his conversion and became the great St. Augustine we all know about. What if a saint, like St. Augustine, started out life in a less than holy manner. We’ll call them St. Bob. St. Bob grows up in the church but during his teens and early twenties he falls into sin. God calls him to become a Franciscan but he says no, he wants to party and sleep around. He falls in love with one of his girlfriends and together they have a conversion experience and they marry and become very holy people and Secular Dominicans and they have a child who becomes a saint, etc. Then, could you say St. Bob was wrong not to become a Franciscan when God called him? He turned away from God’s will, but later on he ended up becoming a saint through a different means. Therefore “If one responds to God’s call, one will achieve holiness” happened for Bob the second time, not the first time. Again, I don’t know if this has ever happened, but I don’t think it’s impossible, since many saints have started out as great sinners.

First of all, how does Bob know that God called him to be a Franciscan?

God calls us to be saints.

If Bob married Lucy and they become Lay Dominicans and achieve holiness, obviously that’s where God wanted him and Lucy. The thought of being a Franciscan was a product of his imagination or someone else’s, but not God’s plan.

God will never call you where you cannot go. If it’s impossible for Bob to be a Franciscan, God will not call him there. God will always help you to become holy if you’re where you belong. If you waste God’s grace, that’s not his fault or his problem. He did his part.

In this case, Bob and Lucy used the grace that God provided in their context. They fulfilled their vocation.

Even if Bob had been a wife beater, marriage to Lucy is still his vocation. The problem is that he does not use the graces that come through the Sacrament of Matrimoney to grow in holiness, because he’s too busy being angry and taking it out on Lucy.

The proof that you’re where God wants you to be lies with the Church. If the Church says so, that’s where you belong. She cannot err on that. If the Church acknowledges your marriage as valid, that’s where you belong. If she acknowledges your vows as valid, then you belong in the consecrated life. If she acknoledges your ordination as valid, then you belong in the diaconate or the priesthood. The confirmation comes through authority of the Church.

For example, when you marry, if the Church says that the marriage is valid, there is no other place where God wants you. Otherwise, the marriage would be invalid. God would not lead you into a valid marriage, which is binding until death, if he wanted you to be celibate.

Sometimes there are cases like my own. I was married and a father of three. Now, I’m a religious in vows, obvioiusly celibate. Which one did God want for me? Both. Because the Church confirmed both.

I think that the problem with vocatioins is that we place toooooooooooo much importance on what we think and how we feel and not enough on the Church’s authority to bind and unbind. If the Church binds us to a state in life, it’s because God wants us there. He never contradicts his Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TiggerS]

think that the problem with vocatioins is that we place toooooooooooo much importance on what we think and how we feel and not enough on the Church’s authority to bind and unbind. If the Church binds us to a state in life, it’s because God wants us there. He never contradicts his Church.

Important point - way too much importance on what we may feel or think.

 

[JReducation]

Important point - way too much importance on what we may feel or think.

Sometimes, I wonder if Catholics are becoming excessively concerned about their opinions and feelings. I beleive that this may be a symptom of the Great American Heresy, which the USA has successfully exported to Europe and now to parts of Latin America. We have taken freedom and self-determination to a whole new level that was not intended by God.

We have taken it to the level where we now believe that we have to understand everything and that God has to let us in on everything he wants us to do, rather than simply follow.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[narrowgatequest]

Sometimes, I wonder if Catholics are becoming excessively concerned about their opinions and feelings. I beleive that this may be a symptom of the Great American Heresy, which the USA has successfully exported to Europe and now to parts of Latin America. We have taken freedom and self-determination to a whole new level that was not intended by God.

We have taken it to the level where we now believe that we have to understand everything and that God has to let us in on everything he wants us to do, rather than simply follow.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Oh, I see, I think I finally get what you were saying. American, guilty as charged right here I’ll have to see if I can’t get my head turned back the right way.

 

[JReducation]

Oh, I see, I think I finally get what you were saying. American, guilty as charged right here I’ll have to see if I can’t get my head turned back the right way.

I certanly think that man is to be free and to make choices. That part is a natural right instilled by God into creation. We’ve taken it to a level that is not in nature. We want to be in full control and to have full understanding. That’s not part of God’s plan for man. He remains God and in control. As the Spiritual Masters have taught us, God often leads us through the darkness. Heroic faith is assent of the will, to follow, even when we don’t understand or when we don’t feel.

In our American culture, we have elevated freedom to exclude mystery. In other words, if it’s a mystery, we fight it and we often refuse to assent,because we don’t know for sure or because of the way we feel. In our collective psyche, we call this freedom and self-determination. In Christian Spirituality it’s the absence of trust.

Once we have done the best we can, we do as St. John of the Cross says, we step into the Dark Night, because God wants us to follow. We trust that he knows where he’s leading. Americans don’t do well with this level of trust. Part of it is because we have exalted freedom, choice and control beyond what God meant for man to have. Instead of a means to an end, these have become ends in themselves.

Because of our economic and political success, other cultures, especially Europe and now Latin America have adopted this mindset. We believe and they do too, that success depends solely on our choices. God has nothing to do with it. The idea of God calling us to play a specific role in Salvation History does not enter into the equation.

Bl. John Paul II spoke to American Catholics about this danger when he visited us in Baltimore. He said that we were so convinced that we are in control that we’re on the verge of forgetting that it is really God who is in control. Now we’re hearing Pope Benedict telling Europe the same thing.

We cannot forget that God calls and God decides where we belong in the plan of salvation. Our part is to answer with generosity and trust. We don’t have to torture ourselves with as many questions as we ask.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Humility101]

First of all, how does Bob know that God called him to be a Franciscan?

God calls us to be saints.

If Bob married Lucy and they become Lay Dominicans and achieve holiness, obviously that’s where God wanted him and Lucy. The thought of being a Franciscan was a product of his imagination or someone else’s, but not God’s plan.

God will never call you where you cannot go. If it’s impossible for Bob to be a Franciscan, God will not call him there. God will always help you to become holy if you’re where you belong. If you waste God’s grace, that’s not his fault or his problem. He did his part.

In this case, Bob and Lucy used the grace that God provided in their context. They fulfilled their vocation.

Even if Bob had been a wife beater, marriage to Lucy is still his vocation. The problem is that he does not use the graces that come through the Sacrament of Matrimoney to grow in holiness, because he’s too busy being angry and taking it out on Lucy.

The proof that you’re where God wants you to be lies with the Church. If the Church says so, that’s where you belong. She cannot err on that. If the Church acknowledges your marriage as valid, that’s where you belong. If she acknowledges your vows as valid, then you belong in the consecrated life. If she acknoledges your ordination as valid, then you belong in the diaconate or the priesthood. The confirmation comes through authority of the Church.

For example, when you marry, if the Church says that the marriage is valid, there is no other place where God wants you. Otherwise, the marriage would be invalid. God would not lead you into a valid marriage, which is binding until death, if he wanted you to be celibate.

Sometimes there are cases like my own. I was married and a father of three. Now, I’m a religious in vows, obvioiusly celibate. Which one did God want for me? Both. Because the Church confirmed both.

I think that the problem with vocatioins is that we place toooooooooooo much importance on what we think and how we feel and not enough on the Church’s authority to bind and unbind. If the Church binds us to a state in life, it’s because God wants us there. He never contradicts his Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thank you for this response. It has helped me a great deal and I have not even read the entire thread!
God be with you always.
~Rae