Saints

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christian_777

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I am a menber of this group but I am not a Catholic. I even found it difficult to participate because the doctrines and beliefs seemed strange.
The belief in saints and praying to them is one as well as praying to Mary. These are not biblical. How can they be a part of Christ?
Were we not told that “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.
 
Were we not told that “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.
That is correct ! there is no other name whereby we might be saved.
 
I am a menber of this group but I am not a Catholic. I even found it difficult to participate because the doctrines and beliefs seemed strange.
The belief in saints and praying to them is one as well as praying to Mart. These are not biblical. How can they be a part of Christ?
Were we not told that “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.
Welcome to CAF, 777. I do not claim to completely understand Catholic teaching on the invocation of the saints, but my understanding is this: Catholics invoke the saints in heaven to pray for them, in the same way you probably ask others in your church or family to pray for you or for others. In both cases, it is a request of other Christians to pray for you. Catholics do not “pray to” or “worship” St. Mary as if she is part of the Godhead, or a goddess. In other words, what Catholics do regarding the invocation of saints is not idolatry.
Whether or not the saints in heaven can hear requests for intercession is another question.

Jon
 
I am a menber of this group but I am not a Catholic. I even found it difficult to participate because the doctrines and beliefs seemed strange.
The belief in saints and praying to them is one as well as praying to Mart. These are not biblical. How can they be a part of Christ?
Were we not told that “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.
Welcome to the forums christian777.

Saints are the heroes of the faith. They have done wonderful things and have attained a high degree of holiness which is a closeness to God. For me, those that are close to God are the ones that I would want praying for me and asking God to be generous and merciful towards me.

I will be praying for you and thinking of you.

mdcpensive1
 
Welcome to CAF, 777. I do not claim to completely understand Catholic teaching on the invocation of the saints, but my understanding is this: Catholics invoke the saints in heaven to pray for them, in the same way you probably ask others in your church or family to pray for you or for others. In both cases, it is a request of other Christians to pray for you. Catholics do not “pray to” or “worship” St. Mary as if she is part of the Godhead, or a goddess. In other words, what Catholics do regarding the invocation of saints is not idolatry.
Whether or not the saints in heaven can hear requests for intercession is another question.

Jon
If Abraham and Lazarus could hear the Rich Man who was in Hades then why wouldn’t the saints be able to hear us? (Luke 16:19-31)🤷 Also I remember a video I saw concerning Rev Alex Jones who was a protestant pastor who converted to Catholic faith and he was being interviewed by among other people a woman from the UK. And she brought out that an older meaning of the word “pray” is to ask someone for something completely independent of any kind of worship. You will often find the word pray in legal documents as in “pray (do this or that)” in exchange for some sort of remuneration. Also another way to address a public official other than “Your Honor” is to say “Your Worship” This is the way Justices in some other countries are addressed even though personally you might despise the person who bears that title.
 
If Abraham and Lazarus could hear the Rich Man who was in Hades then why wouldn’t the saints be able to hear us? (Luke 16:19-31)🤷 Also I remember a video I saw concerning Rev Alex Jones who was a protestant pastor who converted to Catholic faith and he was being interviewed by among other people a woman from the UK. And she brought out that an older meaning of the word “pray” is to ask someone for something completely independent of any kind of worship. You will often find the word pray in legal documents as in “pray (do this or that)” in exchange for some sort of remuneration. Also another way to address a public official other than “Your Honor” is to say “Your Worship” This is the way Justices in some other countries are addressed even though personally you might despise the person who bears that title.
The rich man was in purgatory, or he would not have had hope for his relatives.

I agree, though. Saints and angels can hear us. I don’t know why people limit them so much. They aren’t limited by a body like we are.
 
The rich man was in purgatory, or he would not have had hope for his relatives.

I agree, though. Saints and angels can hear us. I don’t know why people limit them so much. They aren’t limited by a body like we are.
Since angels are pure spirits with no body to limit them to time and space I would suppose saints are in at least close to the same situation and would not be limited as we on earth are. And of course God Himself would be in the same situation–not limited by time or space, and as such can hear simultaneous prayers from as many people as there are praying at any time or place.🤷
 
The rich man was in purgatory, or he would not have had hope for his relatives.

I agree, though. Saints and angels can hear us. I don’t know why people limit them so much. They aren’t limited by a body like we are.
Lk 16:22-23 The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment. There is no getting out of hell.

Abrahams bosom was where the righteous people went before Jesus had paid the price for sin. Then led captivity captive Eph 4:8. From that point forward all believers will go to heaven. 2 Chor 5:6-8 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight.) 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Since angels are pure spirits with no body to limit them to time and space I would suppose saints are in at least close to the same situation and would not be limited as we on earth are. And of course God Himself would be in the same situation–not limited by time or space, and as such can hear simultaneous prayers from as many people as there are praying at any time or place.🤷
I agree. These things are limited for us, since we are stuck withing time and a body.
Lk 16:22-23 The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment. There is no getting out of hell.

Abrahams bosom was where the righteous people went before Jesus had paid the price for sin. Then led captivity captive Eph 4:8. From that point forward all believers will go to heaven. 2 Chor 5:6-8 Therefore having always confidence, knowing that, while we are in the body, we are absent from the Lord. 7 (For we walk by faith, and not by sight.) 8 But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Hell was the term for limbo, purgatory, and hell back then.

Think the apostles’ creed…He decended into hell. Why would he have need to do that, unless it were?
 
I agree. These things are limited for us, since we are stuck withing time and a body.

Hell was the term for limbo, purgatory, and hell back then.

Think the apostles’ creed…He decended into hell. Why would he have need to do that, unless it were?
In what chapter do you find the apostles creed in the bible?
 
If Abraham and Lazarus could hear the Rich Man who was in Hades then why wouldn’t the saints be able to hear us? (Luke 16:19-31)🤷 .
Actually, I think Luke 15:7, "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." is a more compelling argument, in that it implies that those in heaven could be aware of what is happening on earth. At least, it causes me pause to reconsider on this issue.
** And she brought out that an older meaning of the word “pray” is to ask someone for something completely independent of any kind of worship. You will often find the word pray in legal documents as in “pray (do this or that)” in exchange for some sort of remuneration. Also another way to address a public official other than “Your Honor” is to say “Your Worship”** This is the way Justices in some other countries are addressed even though personally you might despise the person who bears that title
Yes. This is what I was trying to convey to the OP.

Jon
 
It is possible for writings other than scripture to rightly reflect scripture. The Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds are excellent examples of this.

Jon
That is true in the broader sense but when it contradicts scripture they are wrong.
 
I am a menber of this group but I am not a Catholic. I even found it difficult to participate because the doctrines and beliefs seemed strange.
The belief in saints and praying to them is one as well as praying to Mart. These are not biblical. How can they be a part of Christ?
Were we not told that “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12.
We don’t pray to saints for salvation; we pray to them because “the prayer of a righteous man availeth much” and the saints are as righteous as it gets apart from God Himself. Of course, we can pray directly to God, but we falter and grow weary (“Could you not keep watch one hour?”) whereas the saints do not.

Not biblical? Well…

Praying to Saints and the Communion of Saints Proved from Scripture

1. Every Christian is a member of the Body of Christ


“Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.” (Romans 12:4-5)

“The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (1 Corinthians 12:12-13)

And we are joined with Christ through baptism

“having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.” (Colossians 2:12)

“We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” (Romans 6:4)

“for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” (Galatians 3:27)

2. All Christians are connected through the Body of Christ

“If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.”(1 Corinthians 12:26)

“If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you” (2 Corinthians 2:5)

3. Physical death does not separate us from the Body of Christ

“For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 8:38-39)

4. There is only one Body of Christ in Heaven and on Earth

“by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:15-16)

“There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.” (Ephesians 4:4-5)

5. The Church is the Body of Christ

“And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.” (Ephesians 1:22-23)

“And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy” (Colossians 1:18)

6. Just as we can pray for one another, we can suffer for one another because we are all connected in Christ

“Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Colossians 1:24)

7. If you can ask a member of the Body of Christ on earth to pray for you, then you can also ask someone who is a member of that same Body of Christ in heaven to do the same for they are not “dead” at all.

“He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." (Luke 20:38)
 
In what chapter do you find the apostles creed in the bible?
I think it’s right next to that verse containing the word “trinity”. 😛

Could you specify which portion of the Creed you find offensive or unbiblical?

Thanks.
 
I think it’s right next to that verse containing the word “trinity”. 😛

Could you specify which portion of the Creed you find offensive or unbiblical?

Thanks.
Also just after the verse that says to be saved we walk an aisle and repeat the “sinner’s prayer” after a famous tv evangelist!
 
Actually, the belief about Jesus’ descent into Sheol (Hades in Greek), preaching to the patriarchs, etc. is in the Bible. It all fulfills various things said in the psalms, prophets, etc., and it explains why various resurrected saints were seen wandering around Jerusalem after the Resurrection.

Jesus warned people about this, as is told in Matthew 12:38-40:

"Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, ‘Master, we would see a sign from thee.’ But he answered and said unto them, ‘An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.’ "

Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20 are also of interest.

Ephesians 4:8-10:

“But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.”
What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.”

The point here is “he led captives in his train”. Early Christian poets, and painters through the ages, talked about Christ’s resurrection as taking place with the resurrected saints and the freed souls of those in Sheol following along, and of the freed souls going to Heaven with Him as part of His Ascension. (Although obviously not visibly.) The Good Thief going to Paradise would be a part of this.

Paul said “the lower earthly regions” or “the lower parts of the earth” because it was an expression that meant Sheol.

1 Peter 3: 18-20: “…he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.”

The psalms have traditionally been seen by all Christians as primarily the prayer of David and the Son of David, in which we share. They prophesied plenty about Jesus’ life.

There’s some pretty good stuff in Psalm 87/88 about Sheol and Jesus.

“…my life hath come to Sheol. I have been reckoned with those going down to the pit, I have been as a man without strength. They have laid me in the lower pit: in the dark places, and in the shadow of death… Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead, or shall physicians raise to life, and give praise to thee? Shall any one in the sepulchre declare thy mercy: and thy truth in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark; and thy justice in the land of forgetfulness?”

The answer here would be “Yes.” Especially when a certain Good Physician is involved. 🙂

I’m sure that if you look, you can find plenty more about Christ’s descent into hell/Sheol/Hades.
 
I think it’s right next to that verse containing the word “trinity”. 😛

Could you specify which portion of the Creed you find offensive or unbiblical?

Thanks.
Mt 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one 🙂
 
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