C
christian_777
Guest
I was doing that throughtout this whole discussion. Take a moment and listen to the Spirit and not Tradition.
- Status
I
Ignatius
Guest
christian 777:
I’m sorry, but that is the erroneous interpretation of your denomination and it is in opposition to all other Christians, including those who walked the earth with Jesus and The Apostles. It is perfectly perspecacious that Jesus is saying that Isaac and Jacob are alive though their bodies have died.
So, if you’ll excuse me I’ll stick with my interpretation, guided by The Holy Spirit, and in agreement with The Whole Church from Christ to the present time.
If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at http://www.chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.
Grace and peace be with you.
Your servant in Christ.
I’m sorry, but that is the erroneous interpretation of your denomination and it is in opposition to all other Christians, including those who walked the earth with Jesus and The Apostles. It is perfectly perspecacious that Jesus is saying that Isaac and Jacob are alive though their bodies have died.
So, if you’ll excuse me I’ll stick with my interpretation, guided by The Holy Spirit, and in agreement with The Whole Church from Christ to the present time.
If you would like to learn more about the teachings of Jesus Christ, please contact the folks at http://www.chnetwork.org/. I promise, if you unite yourself to Jesus Christ through His Church, you will experience the great gift the He has promised to those who follow Him. As Jesus said, “He who eats My body and drinks My blood lives in Me and I in him and I will raise him up on the last day.” And He is faithful and sure to keep His promises. Repent, turn to the Gospel and be saved and you will have everlasting life.
Grace and peace be with you.
Your servant in Christ.
C
christian_777
Guest
Jesus said that few find the narrow way. So that if I am in the minority on this matter it is a good sign.
If you are correct on your view. Explain the situation in John 11 with Lazarus. For one He is dead and Jesus uses the word sleeping. If he is in heaven why would Jesus want him back on earth? Would he not be in the better place? Mary states clearly that she knows that he will be resurrected at the last day. Is that not what I am saying? Is it not stated here also that those who are alive at the coming of Jesus will never die? In that case it is not a spirit that is going to heaven but a body
J
juliamajor
Guest
An article called"soul sleep?not a chance"This is srictly Protestant view of soul sleep-not mine.
certain cult claims that the soul of a person who dies goes into a state of sleep, and remains that way until the day of the Resurrection.
IF this is true, then your loved ones who died in Christ are not with the Lord right now. Rather, they are sleeping in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.
cont’d →
Praise God, this cultic heresy is not true. NOT TRUE!
I will now string beads of verses so that God’s own Bible can fully convince you that “absent from the body is PRESENT with the Lord.”
Halleluyah!
In the verse alongside, notice that when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn’t hang around to go into the tomb with her body. Neither did her soul “fall asleep.” And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Gen 35.18
The body without the spirit is dead – Period! Thus says the word of God.
Therefore, the spirit or soul cannot stay with the body and sleep. It has to depart in order for the body to die. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Jam 2.26
How in the world can Moses and Elijah be talking with Jesus if they are supposed to be asleep? After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves …and behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Mt 17.1, 3
Jesus asserted that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
The fact that Jesus used the term “living” clearly means alive in every sense of the word.
For this passage to make sense, it must mean that God’s departed children are joyously awake and aware of being WITH their Heavenly Father.
Their souls most definitely are NOT snoozing away in a grave somewhere, having no knowledge or awareness of God. That would not be living. That would be mere existence. [Jesus said…] Concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt 22.31-32
If souls do sleep, then the passage alongside would offer little by way of warning to pagans, and even less by way of exhortation to believers.
But souls do NOT sleep. If they are cast into hell, they shall be fully awake & aware of that terrible fact. Be warned! [Jesus said…] Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Lk 12.4-5
Some people regard the passage alongside as being a parable. I do NOT. Why? Because, in all of Christ’s parables, not ONCE did He ever use a person’s name. In this passage, on the other hand, Lord Jesus explicitly identifies two people by name: Abraham and Lazarus.
I conclude that, in these verses, Jesus was describing actual events.
Notice that, whereas Lazarus and the rich man have both died, their souls are NOT asleep. Rather, their souls are very much awake and aware. The same is true of Abraham. [Jesus said…] So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Then he cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
But Abraham said, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” Lk 16.22-25
On the cross, Jesus promised the believing thief that he would be WITH Him in Paradise.
When? Today! – not after the future resurrection.
How? Together! – not Jesus in one place, awake, and the thief in another place, asleep.
Together with Jesus forever! So it was for that thief. So shall it be for you and me.
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Lk 23.43
Even while in the grave for three days and nights, Jesus was fully active and conscious. And busy! For it was during that time that our Lord preached to the spirits in prison.
Consider - If the spirits in prison were fast asleep,
then why would Jesus have preached to them? The answer is clear. They were NOT asleep!
certain cult claims that the soul of a person who dies goes into a state of sleep, and remains that way until the day of the Resurrection.
IF this is true, then your loved ones who died in Christ are not with the Lord right now. Rather, they are sleeping in the grave, awaiting the resurrection.
cont’d →
Praise God, this cultic heresy is not true. NOT TRUE!
I will now string beads of verses so that God’s own Bible can fully convince you that “absent from the body is PRESENT with the Lord.”
Halleluyah!
In the verse alongside, notice that when Rachel died, her soul departed. It didn’t hang around to go into the tomb with her body. Neither did her soul “fall asleep.” And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name Ben-Oni; but his father called him Benjamin. Gen 35.18
The body without the spirit is dead – Period! Thus says the word of God.
Therefore, the spirit or soul cannot stay with the body and sleep. It has to depart in order for the body to die. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Jam 2.26
How in the world can Moses and Elijah be talking with Jesus if they are supposed to be asleep? After six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves …and behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Mt 17.1, 3
Jesus asserted that “God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”
The fact that Jesus used the term “living” clearly means alive in every sense of the word.
For this passage to make sense, it must mean that God’s departed children are joyously awake and aware of being WITH their Heavenly Father.
Their souls most definitely are NOT snoozing away in a grave somewhere, having no knowledge or awareness of God. That would not be living. That would be mere existence. [Jesus said…] Concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, “I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob”? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Mt 22.31-32
If souls do sleep, then the passage alongside would offer little by way of warning to pagans, and even less by way of exhortation to believers.
But souls do NOT sleep. If they are cast into hell, they shall be fully awake & aware of that terrible fact. Be warned! [Jesus said…] Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear. Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him! Lk 12.4-5
Some people regard the passage alongside as being a parable. I do NOT. Why? Because, in all of Christ’s parables, not ONCE did He ever use a person’s name. In this passage, on the other hand, Lord Jesus explicitly identifies two people by name: Abraham and Lazarus.
I conclude that, in these verses, Jesus was describing actual events.
Notice that, whereas Lazarus and the rich man have both died, their souls are NOT asleep. Rather, their souls are very much awake and aware. The same is true of Abraham. [Jesus said…] So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Then he cried and said, “Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.”
But Abraham said, “Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.” Lk 16.22-25
On the cross, Jesus promised the believing thief that he would be WITH Him in Paradise.
When? Today! – not after the future resurrection.
How? Together! – not Jesus in one place, awake, and the thief in another place, asleep.
Together with Jesus forever! So it was for that thief. So shall it be for you and me.
Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” Lk 23.43
Even while in the grave for three days and nights, Jesus was fully active and conscious. And busy! For it was during that time that our Lord preached to the spirits in prison.
Consider - If the spirits in prison were fast asleep,
then why would Jesus have preached to them? The answer is clear. They were NOT asleep!
J
juliamajor
Guest
NOTE. 1 Peter 3.19 is one of the deep verses of the Bible, and deserves further explanation. Rather than detouring from our study of soul sleep, I have appended my additional comments about 1 Peter 3.19 at the bottom of this page. …Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison
1 Pet 3.19b
The Lord’s statement that a believer in Him would “never die” is meaningless if it means that, even though your soul is alive, you will have ZERO awareness of your Lord and Savior. Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11.25-25
How is it possible to be “absent from the body and present with the Lord" if our souls merely sleep?
Is Heaven right now nothing more than a huge dormitory of sleeping souls?
Moreover, the martyrs, despite being "dead,” have their own memories, and fully recollect what happened to them in their earthly state. Such things would be impossible if they were merely asleep. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev 6.9
As you read the verse alongside, note that the writer [apostle John] not only saw the souls of the martyrs, but also recorded that they “lived and reigned.” And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20.4
Read Psalm 116.15. Ask yourself WHY the death of believers would be precious in God’s sight if their souls were only moving into a state of slumber and unconsciousness? Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints. Ps 116.15
In the passage alongside, Stephen is about to be
executed. He sees Jesus “standing” at the right hand of God.
Usually the Bible describes the resurrected Jesus as being seated at the right hand of God [Hebrews 1.3, for example]. But Stephen is about to die for his testimony, and so Lord Jesus stands in preparedness to welcome him home.
In verse 59, Stephen calls to Jesus to receive his spirit. Jesus stands, with His arms stretched out, to do just that.
Now ask yourself – Did Stephen enter Heaven that day as merely an unconscious sleeper? Or did he rush, joyously awake and aware, to worship at the feet of His Savior? But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Ac 7.55-56, 59
Appendix: Further Comments About 1 Peter 3.19 & Related Matters
Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust,
That He might bring us to God,
Being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
By whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison
1 Pet 3.18-19
In 1 Pet 3.19 [quoted above]
the word “preached” [Greek kerusso] merely means to function as a herald, and make an announcement.
Therefore, Jesus made an announcement to
the spirits in prison that something wonderful had just occurred.
In my view, that “something” could have been nothing less than the Good News of His atoning death, and soon-to-be resurrection. Strong’s 2784 kerusso
to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth
Who were those “spirits” in 1 Pet 3.19? I believe they were the Old Testament saints – Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, and the like.
Why were they NOT in Heaven? Because their sins had not yet been atoned for.
Remember – the Old Testament’s sacrificial system could not “take away” sins [Heb. 10.4]. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins Heb 10.4
In Leviticus 17.11, the word “atonement” [Hebrew kaphar] means to “cover” sin – NOT cleanse it.
You might say that the Old Testament saints were “saved on credit.” That is, they were saved in anticipation of the day when Messiah Jesus would “pay the bill” by dying on their behalf – the ultimate price to which all the Old Testament sacrifices pointed. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement [kaphar] for your souls Lev 17.11a
Thus, after His crucifixion, Jesus went to them in Hades to announce that He had just paid the full price of their sin debt. After His resurrection, Jesus took those Old Testament saints with Him to Heaven. The beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lk 16.22-23
Thus, the compartment of Hades known as Abraham’s bosom is now empty.
The OTHER compartment of Hades, where the rich man was, is still very much occupied. Indeed, it is the place where the souls of unsaved people go, pending their final Judgment. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it… and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Rev 20.11a, 20.13b
There’s more to be said, but I hope this serves to fortify you against the day when one of Satan’s people might seek to attack you, or someone you love, on this issue
1 Pet 3.19b
The Lord’s statement that a believer in Him would “never die” is meaningless if it means that, even though your soul is alive, you will have ZERO awareness of your Lord and Savior. Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” John 11.25-25
How is it possible to be “absent from the body and present with the Lord" if our souls merely sleep?
Is Heaven right now nothing more than a huge dormitory of sleeping souls?
Moreover, the martyrs, despite being "dead,” have their own memories, and fully recollect what happened to them in their earthly state. Such things would be impossible if they were merely asleep. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Rev 6.9
As you read the verse alongside, note that the writer [apostle John] not only saw the souls of the martyrs, but also recorded that they “lived and reigned.” And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev 20.4
Read Psalm 116.15. Ask yourself WHY the death of believers would be precious in God’s sight if their souls were only moving into a state of slumber and unconsciousness? Precious in the sight of the LORD Is the death of His saints. Ps 116.15
In the passage alongside, Stephen is about to be
executed. He sees Jesus “standing” at the right hand of God.
Usually the Bible describes the resurrected Jesus as being seated at the right hand of God [Hebrews 1.3, for example]. But Stephen is about to die for his testimony, and so Lord Jesus stands in preparedness to welcome him home.
In verse 59, Stephen calls to Jesus to receive his spirit. Jesus stands, with His arms stretched out, to do just that.
Now ask yourself – Did Stephen enter Heaven that day as merely an unconscious sleeper? Or did he rush, joyously awake and aware, to worship at the feet of His Savior? But he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”
And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
Ac 7.55-56, 59
Appendix: Further Comments About 1 Peter 3.19 & Related Matters
Christ suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust,
That He might bring us to God,
Being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,
By whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison
1 Pet 3.18-19
In 1 Pet 3.19 [quoted above]
the word “preached” [Greek kerusso] merely means to function as a herald, and make an announcement.
Therefore, Jesus made an announcement to
the spirits in prison that something wonderful had just occurred.
In my view, that “something” could have been nothing less than the Good News of His atoning death, and soon-to-be resurrection. Strong’s 2784 kerusso
to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth
Who were those “spirits” in 1 Pet 3.19? I believe they were the Old Testament saints – Abraham, Moses, David, Isaiah, and the like.
Why were they NOT in Heaven? Because their sins had not yet been atoned for.
Remember – the Old Testament’s sacrificial system could not “take away” sins [Heb. 10.4]. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins Heb 10.4
In Leviticus 17.11, the word “atonement” [Hebrew kaphar] means to “cover” sin – NOT cleanse it.
You might say that the Old Testament saints were “saved on credit.” That is, they were saved in anticipation of the day when Messiah Jesus would “pay the bill” by dying on their behalf – the ultimate price to which all the Old Testament sacrifices pointed. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement [kaphar] for your souls Lev 17.11a
Thus, after His crucifixion, Jesus went to them in Hades to announce that He had just paid the full price of their sin debt. After His resurrection, Jesus took those Old Testament saints with Him to Heaven. The beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lk 16.22-23
Thus, the compartment of Hades known as Abraham’s bosom is now empty.
The OTHER compartment of Hades, where the rich man was, is still very much occupied. Indeed, it is the place where the souls of unsaved people go, pending their final Judgment. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it… and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Rev 20.11a, 20.13b
There’s more to be said, but I hope this serves to fortify you against the day when one of Satan’s people might seek to attack you, or someone you love, on this issue
I
Ignatius
Guest
C
christian_777
Guest
Hi Juliamajor
You have a few problems with your view, but let me mention one. How do you explain the idea that Jesus was preaching to the dead at His death who were in hell (Prison) and still He was in Heaven with the thief on the cross?
Jesus went nowhere near Heaven nor the thief!
Most of all look at Jesus, if anyone would have been in heaven after death it would have been Him. As a matter of fact some churches would have believe that the thief on the cross went with Him to heaven that same Friday. Look carefully at what the Bible says. Here is Jesus taking to Mary at the tomb. John 20:14-17 14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You also speak of the spirit knowning and being aware of what was happening. that is not true.
Are we going to believe the Bible? Job describe death in Job 14:7-13 For there is hope for a dead tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Though the roof thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock there of die in the ground: yet through scent of water it will bud, and bring fore boughts like a plant. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up. So man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 7:9-10 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
You have a few problems with your view, but let me mention one. How do you explain the idea that Jesus was preaching to the dead at His death who were in hell (Prison) and still He was in Heaven with the thief on the cross?
Jesus went nowhere near Heaven nor the thief!
Most of all look at Jesus, if anyone would have been in heaven after death it would have been Him. As a matter of fact some churches would have believe that the thief on the cross went with Him to heaven that same Friday. Look carefully at what the Bible says. Here is Jesus taking to Mary at the tomb. John 20:14-17 14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
You also speak of the spirit knowning and being aware of what was happening. that is not true.
Are we going to believe the Bible? Job describe death in Job 14:7-13 For there is hope for a dead tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease. Though the roof thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock there of die in the ground: yet through scent of water it will bud, and bring fore boughts like a plant. But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up. So man lieth down and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Job 7:9-10 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
J
juliamajor
Guest
Yes,we are but not your version of it.How come when I quote scripture -I’m in the wrong and when you do-your in the right? How arrogant-how self serving , how Pharisical…
C
christian_777
Guest
Not at all. You must understand the bible for what it says not what we would have it say or what the any church says. God would not Judge up by demonination but by His word.
Did not Jesus say He would tell some who call themselves Christians that He never knew them? Why need to get our fcat right.
J
juliamajor
Guest
That’s farcical at best.Any time you translate a bible-you interpret it.Any time you debate the bible- you’re interpreting it.you’re denomination interprets it as does every denomination.Every individual who reads the bible ,to certain extent, interprets it. Any written document of any kind, speech of any kind can be interpreted according to -education,ethnic background, philosophy of life, religious upbringing and probably a ton of other reasons.We see everything from the prism of our own eye no matter how devoid of prejudice somebody thinks they are. Again so why do you believe that your right and I’m wrong? My interpretation of scripture vs yours.I have my facts right.you interpret them wrongly.If you are blind to the Truth then you are blind.Unlike what you’d like to think the SDA interprets and colors your view of scripture.Not God, not Jesus not the Holy Spirit.But Ellen Gould white and alexander Hislop.
They could not tell a simple historical truth- and you trust prevaricators?
I
Ignatius
Guest
My dear brother in Christ, we do indeed need to get the facts right. I also noticed that you were unable to answer my question.Ignatius:
So, if you’ll excuse me I’ll stick with my interpretation, guided by The Holy Spirit, and in agreement with The Whole Church from Christ to the present time.christian777:
Ignatius:
So that if I am in the minority on this matter it is a good sign.
You seem to be having trouble understanding what is written. I didn’t say anything about numbers whatsoever (quoted above so the other readers can see for themselves.)
My post pointed out that you are in disagreement with the understanding handed down by Christ and The Apostles to the Early Christians who received the Faith directly from them.
Explain how you, who come 2000 years after the fact can possibly think that you know more than those who received the faith directly from Christ and The Apostles? That notion of yours that those who passed on aren’t in heaven didn’t even appear until the 19th century.
No, my dear brother, You can believe whatever you want. I’ll stick with the Faith as delivered by Christ and The Apostles, not borrowed from the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
You must understand the bible for what it says not what we would have it say or what the any church says. Why need to get our fcat right.
It is you that has trouble understanding what was written.Your interpretation (which was not invented until the 19th century) is in disagreement with the understanding handed down by Christ and The Apostles to the Early Christians who received the Faith directly from them.
That notion of yours that those who passed over aren’t in heaven didn’t even appear until the 19th century.
So, stop ducking the issue and Explain how you, who come 2000 years after the fact, can possibly think that you know more than those who received the faith directly from Christ and The Apostles?
Grace and peace be with you.
Your servant in Christ.
C
christian_777
Guest
The understanding I have of the bible is not new but is even from the beginning. I think I have made that clear in the quotations from the bible that I gave. The Ideas you hold did not come from Christ but from pagans and incorperated into christianity. I grew up exposed to the ideas you have but an honest look at the word of God would disprove all of that. You may hold on to your ideas for except a man is willing to accept the truth not even God can change him.
I had a great grandmother who even told me of a dead person visiting her and speaking to her. Doing some of the same things when they were alive, but low and behold the bible says, as I have quoted from Job and Pslams, that the dead knows nothing and can not do that. This is not about my church vs. your church. That is not my game!!
C
christian_777
Guest
Which is more important to you? Being a Catholic or living by the word of God? This is not for you to answer me but for you to know to be truthful to yourself and our saviour. How can I ignor plain staements like the rest of the dead live not until the thousand years is pass Rev. 20:5. If it is according to what you have stated they should be alive in heaven or in hell. The idea that Jesus preached to the dead is not Biblical either. We are judge by the deeds done in the body not after death.2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things [done] in [his] body, according to that he hath done, whether [it be] good or bad.
I
Ignatius
Guest
Actually that is your personal interpretation is in disagreement with the understanding handed down by Christ and The Apostles to the Early Christians who received the Faith directly from them.
Do you believe that Jesus is God? I do. And since Jesus Christ is God incarnate, The Word of Jesus Christ takes presidence over your interpretation of Old Testament.
In the 22 Chapter of Matthew Jesus is teaching some Saducees, who believe that when the body dies the soul dies. Mat 22:29…32 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. … have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Jesus is talking to the Saducees who do not believe that the soul continues to live after the death of the body. Jesus is teaching them that Isaac and Jacob are Alive! And that is the Teaching handed down by Christ and The Apostles to the Early Christians who received the Faith directly from them.
You say that the interpretation “I have of the bible is not new”, but I believe that you are incorrect about that. I don’t see any evidence within Christian teaching of that idea of yours anywhere from the time of Christ to the 19th century. So, show me some Primary Source evidence that there is Christian teaching having your interpretation from the time of Christ until the 19th century.
May the Grace and peace of Our God and Savior Jesus Christ be with you always.
Your servant in Christ.
J
juliamajor
Guest
I love the arrogance !Being Catholic means you can’t live by the word of God but if you’re SDA you automatically do? Only you and yours are privy to it?Only you can understand it
in the correct manner?all those other so called Christians who are not Sabbath Keepers or Soul sleepers are just ignorant of scripture and are unbiblical?Wow that’s quite a load.Apparently SDA’s are the only ones who live by God’s word! And that makes you the"Chosen".My favorite line is , I have to answer to Christian 777(oops ,I mean Jesus).You certainly act like your God or godlike or, all knowing, omniscient if you can see into my soul and and know I am not being truthful to myself!All you can give me is the same stuff over and over and over regurgitated from those charming SDA sites.That’s why I have my doubts that you can think without relying on those site or are you even allowed to visit legitimate history sites- those without agendas?
D
DCNBILL
Guest
Please note that it is through the Spirit that our Tradition has its wisdom and richness.
The Peace of Christ to all.
bill
P
panevino
Guest
tHere is a story included by Eusebius in “history of the church”
written early300’s
about a girl who is martyred
and prays/intercedes after she dies for someone still alive
and her request is granted.
Don’t have page #
written early300’s
about a girl who is martyred
and prays/intercedes after she dies for someone still alive
and her request is granted.
Don’t have page #
C
christian_777
Guest
I am not taking my material from any site. The bible is good enough for me. The problem is that in your case you want to use things other than the bible and then get the bible to agree by taking things out of context or place the wrong interpretation to it. Except it agrees with the bible as a whole it can not be correct. Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
There is not an interpretation for me and one for you and we are both correct. There is one God and one message. We must know the correct one not what we want to believe, it’s a life or death situation.
J
juliamajor
Guest
C
christian_777
Guest
Have you given serious thought to what you are saying? Can I interpret the Ten Commandments in varying ways? It is this kind of approach that has led others to say that there is no condemnation of homosexuality in the bible. It is this kind of approach that has led others to predict that the world would end in 2011. If I am going to adopt your position then any or all of these should be acceptable.
That is not what you really believe is it? Therefore there must be precise and exact interpretation for the bible. The correct one must be perceived by the aid of the Holy Spirit in order to know how God would have us live and what He intends for us to understand. Because it may be accepted by the majority does not made it correct, as a matter of fact. I tend to believe that the few are correct.
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Luke 13:24-27
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
How could this happen?
Matthew 7:22-24
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Was not Paul thinking that he was Correct? Did he not have to be put right? Being sincere does not make you right!!
- Status