Salad bowl vs paten

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At Sunday Masses (and Saturday evening) because of the large number of people in the congregation, a “salad bowl” is substituted for a paten. The bowl is about 12" in diameter and 6" deep. It is metal and brightly gold plated. This bowl is filled with a sufficient number of hosts to be consecrated during the mass so that all present may receive Holy Communion. The main (larger) altar host is placed on top of the pile of communion hosts in the bowl. A paten is not used at all during the mass. I think that a paten should be used in conjunction with the bowl so that at least the altar host is prepared for consecration on the paten where it should then rest after it is consecrated. I am not sure the bowl is necessary at all as the hosts could be placed into the individual “cups” that are used to distribute communion and neatly placed on the corporal for consecration. As it is, the priest or the deacon have to grab handfulls of hosts and distribute them, none to gently at times, into the “cups”.

This has bothered me for a long time and I would just appreicate knowing if I am being over critical. Is the “salad bowl” a ligitimate option?:confused:
 
ChrisC said:
At Sunday Masses (and Saturday evening) because of the large number of people in the congregation, a “salad bowl” is substituted for a paten. The bowl is about 12" in diameter and 6" deep. It is metal and brightly gold plated. This bowl is filled with a sufficient number of hosts to be consecrated during the mass so that all present may receive Holy Communion. The main (larger) altar host is placed on top of the pile of communion hosts in the bowl. A paten is not used at all during the mass. I think that a paten should be used in conjunction with the bowl so that at least the altar host is prepared for consecration on the paten where it should then rest after it is consecrated. I am not sure the bowl is necessary at all as the hosts could be placed into the individual “cups” that are used to distribute communion and neatly placed on the corporal for consecration. As it is, the priest or the deacon have to grab handfulls of hosts and distribute them, none to gently at times, into the “cups”.

This has bothered me for a long time and I would just appreicate knowing if I am being over critical. Is the “salad bowl” a ligitimate option?:confused:
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You are joking right? I can’t believe that in these days after so much exposure to the abuses and experimentation that the Pauline Rite has gone through that a Church would actually use a “salad bowl” for such a purpose.

That goes way, way out there.
 
The proper term is neither “salad bowl” nor “cups”. The proper term is Ciborium. A ciborium is perfectly fine, whether it is large or small.

I could find no reference in the GIRM requiring a paten, the only reference to a paten in the section on Sacred Vessels uses the term may, which to me implies it is not the only option and that ciborium may be used.
 
1ke said:
The proper term is neither “salad bowl” nor “cups”. The proper term is Ciborium. A ciborium is perfectly fine, whether it is large or small.

I could find no reference in the GIRM requiring a paten, the only reference to a paten in the section on Sacred Vessels uses the term may, which to me implies it is not the only option and that ciborium may be used.
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Aw, you beat me to it.

Our ciboria (plural) have tight-fitting lids, and are goldplated. I never thought they bore the appearance of salad bowls. And they bear no resemblance to Tupperware, either.
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. I did not have a problem with what I referred to as the “cups” but which I am sure should be properly referred to as ciboria. However, the “salad bowl” type of vessel in place of a paten on which the single altar host to be consecrated is normally and reverently placed seems a real stretch of what was intended by the GIRM. This coupled with the courseness of the priest or deacon grabing handsful of consecrated hosts to distribute them into the cup like ciboria (which do have tight fitting lids).
 
 
ChrisC said:
At Sunday Masses (and Saturday evening) because of the large number of people in the congregation, a “salad bowl” is substituted for a paten. The bowl is about 12" in diameter and 6" deep. It is metal and brightly gold plated. This bowl is filled with a sufficient number of hosts to be consecrated during the mass so that all present may receive Holy Communion. The main (larger) altar host is placed on top of the pile of communion hosts in the bowl. A paten is not used at all during the mass. I think that a paten should be used in conjunction with the bowl so that at least the altar host is prepared for consecration on the paten where it should then rest after it is consecrated. I am not sure the bowl is necessary at all as the hosts could be placed into the individual “cups” that are used to distribute communion and neatly placed on the corporal for consecration. As it is, the priest or the deacon have to grab handfulls of hosts and distribute them, none to gently at times, into the “cups”.

This has bothered me for a long time and I would just appreicate knowing if I am being over critical. Is the “salad bowl” a ligitimate option?:confused:
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they maybe can use a large host bowl, but they still need the chalice and paten on the altar for the priest atleast.
 
At my former parish, the hosts were brought up during offertory in a plain glass bowl about 10" by 5". The large host rested on top of the smaller hosts. Just prior to Communion, the hosts were separated into the standard metal ciboria used by each EMHC. A plain glass pitcher and wine glasses are used for the Precious Blood. I don’t know why they continue using glass since it is not exactly in conformity with the rubrics.
 
In reply to OutinChgoburbs, I’m not talking about an oversize ciborium, I’m talking about a full size “salad bowl” bowl that even sits on a raised pedastal rim, just like you might see on a fancy dining room table. The picture links you directed me to showed all liturgical looking implements compared to this monstrousity used in our church. By the way, I must admit that our “salad bowl” is a step up from the glass salad bowl and glass cups (for the Precious Blood) that were used until recently. So I guess there is hope for continued improvement.

Again, thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.
 
ChrisC said:
In reply to OutinChgoburbs, I’m not talking about an oversize ciborium, I’m talking about a full size “salad bowl” bowl that even sits on a raised pedastal rim, just like you might see on a fancy dining room table. The picture links you directed me to showed all liturgical looking implements compared to this monstrousity used in our church. By the way, I must admit that our “salad bowl” is a step up from the glass salad bowl and glass cups (for the Precious Blood) that were used until recently. So I guess there is hope for continued improvement.

Again, thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Please stop referring to the large ciborium as a salad bowl. It is derogatory and rude. You’ve already been told that it is a ciborium. You’ve also been pointed to the GIRM that does NOT require a paten.

Get over it.
 
ChrisC said:
In reply to OutinChgoburbs, I’m not talking about an oversize ciborium, I’m talking about a full size “salad bowl” bowl that even sits on a raised pedastal rim, just like you might see on a fancy dining room table. The picture links you directed me to showed all liturgical looking implements compared to this monstrousity used in our church. By the way, I must admit that our “salad bowl” is a step up from the glass salad bowl and glass cups (for the Precious Blood) that were used until recently. So I guess there is hope for continued improvement.

Again, thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.
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The images posted by OutinChgoburbs were pretty tiny, but following one of them through to its source, including a larger image and actual measurements, there are some pretty salad-bowl comparable ciboria available from Henninger’s Church Goods in Cleveland. (And I have seen similar, and possibly larger , myself)

(What is the difference between a “host bowl” and an “open ciboria” [sic] anyway? :hmmm: )

tee
 
My sincere apology to 1ke. I meant no offense. My choice of description for the vessel in use was simply meant to convey a clear image of what it looked like. I meant no disrespect. As a matter of fact, my real issue was with the absence of a paten. If a paten were used for the altar host I would have no issue with the larger vessel being used as a ciborium I understand the the GIRM is not specific in this regard but I also recognize that there are other well meaning (I can only assume) catholics with a similar concern as mine. Just because the GIRM doesn’t say you can’t do something does not mean that it is automatically permissible.

For your information, I attend the Novus Ordo rite Mass daily and the Tridentine rite Mass on most Sundays. I consider myself neither a “conservative” nor a “liberal” catholic. Just one who, like so many other people that subscribe to this forum, considers himself orthodox and submissive to the will of the Church.
 
Thank you Tee Eff Em. Even the company that supplies the liturgical vessels does not refer this oversize bowl as a ciborium. What do that call it?, a “host bowl”. I’m sure they meant no more disrespect for the Eucharist than I did in refering to it as a “salad bowl”? So, it is clear now that in our parish church, the altar host rests not on a paten but in a “host bowl” (bigger then any on the Henninger’s web site) on top of the pile of smaller communion hosts. By the way, can you imagine how many chalices are required for distribution of the Precious Blood when the “host bowl” is so large? It takes a small army of EMHC to pull off. It is all done very reverently as I am sure you can imagine. Purification of all those vessels is another story. I assume that they are purified after Mass in in sacristy because it doesn’t happen after Communion as it should. Oh well!
 
1ke said:
Please stop referring to the large ciborium as a salad bowl. It is derogatory and rude. You’ve already been told that it is a ciborium. You’ve also been pointed to the GIRM that does NOT require a paten.

Get over it.
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Is it even clear that it is a ciborium? It doesn’t bear the characteristics of a normal ciborium, from what I gather, less like a goblet with a stalk and more of a bowl (to use secular descriptions)- and it has no lid or veil.
 
Titus,

I agree with you whole heartedly. In fact, I think this thread has uncovered the truth that this bowl type host holder is not a ciborium in any sense of the word. Oh, but don’t forget in the GIRM it doesn’t say large, lidless, “host” bowls can’t be used.

So, in my parish, there is no paten and no ciborium on the altar during the Canon/Consecration.:mad: The empty ciboria are brought to the altar after the priest has received Communion and then he distributes the hosts to the 6 or 7 ciboria (not sure about my spelling here) cups for further distrution to the EMHCs.

Thank you, Titus, for helping us all understand this.👍
 
ChrisC said:
Even the company that supplies the liturgical vessels does not refer this oversize bowl as a ciborium.
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No, they (incomprehensibly) refer to it as a “ciboria” – Only the smallest of the three vessels they call a “host bowl”.

PS.
Did you see further down the page, where they also sell “bowl patens”? This is the style of paten I was most familiar with as an altar server in the 1970’s. I don’t think I ever heard of nor saw a ciborium until I went away to high school.

tee
 
tee_eff_em said:
No, they (incomprehensibly) refer to it as a “ciboria” – Only the smallest of the three vessels they call a “host bowl”.

PS.
Did you see further down the page, where they also sell “bowl patens”? This is the style of paten I was most familiar with as an altar server in the 1970’s. I don’t think I ever heard of nor saw a ciborium until I went away to high school.

tee
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The communion ware at my parish look like the ones called bowl paten and host ciborium (the last set pictured). The ones called bowl patens are only used for the Mass and purified after the Mass. The ones called host ciborium with the cover and handle on the side have the consecrated hosts that are reserved in the tabernacle.
 
I took another look at the Henningers’s catalog page. Yes, tee_eff_em, these bowl patens are used at well at daily Mass. Funny thing about that is it is somethimes difficult for the priest to get the large host out of the bowl paten becasue it just fits inside the raised edges of the bowl and he can’t just slide it off as if it were a flat paten. He’s got to push one edge of the host down in order to raise the opposite edge and be able to grab it (the host).

Just for the record, I have to go back to my original “gripe”. There is no paten on the altar during the entire Mass. Not a flat paten; not a bowl paten. Only a “host bowl” and chalice.

Earlier on in this thread I mentioned that I usually attend the Tridentine (indult) rite Mass on Sunday’s. I still function as an altar server too. One of the beatuies of the that rite is that there is no confusion caused by priestly inventiveness. The Mass is said as it should be said according to the appropriate ruberic. About the only thing the priest has control over is how fast he says it and the content of his homily/sermon. One leaves church after hearing that Mass in peace. I have been to a few memorable Novus Ordo Masses that were said reverently and properly. When that is the case, even the congregation is lifted to a higher standard of worship and praise of God.

Peace!
 
ChrisC said:
Titus,

I agree with you whole heartedly. In fact, I think this thread has uncovered the truth that this bowl type host holder is not a ciborium in any sense of the word. Oh, but don’t forget in the GIRM it doesn’t say large, lidless, “host” bowls can’t be used.

So, in my parish, there is no paten and no ciborium on the altar during the Canon/Consecration.:mad: The empty ciboria are brought to the altar after the priest has received Communion and then he distributes the hosts to the 6 or 7 ciboria (not sure about my spelling here) cups for further distrution to the EMHCs.

Thank you, Titus, for helping us all understand this.👍
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I am rather remarkable. But seriously, the biggest issue here, as always, is reverence. Since there are no decisions made by the GIRM, we are to use practices that are reverent. The practice of grabbing bunches of hosts is not reverent. But a host bowl in gold or silver could be.
 
Titus said:
But seriously, the biggest issue here, as always, is reverence. Since there are no decisions made by the GIRM, we are to use practices that are reverent. The practice of grabbing bunches of hosts is not reverent. But a host bowl in gold or silver could be.
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An excellent point.

And for that matter, the use of classical ciboria would not make “grabbing bunches of hosts” (and I have seen it done) any more reverent.

:twocents:
tee
 
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