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lanman87
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This sentence paraphrases what Protestants mean by faith alone. Just saying you have faith isn’t really faith unless you do something with it. Works shows (validates) that faith someone has.
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spina1953
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Ok Ianman87. I understand what you are saying but the fact remains so many Protestants do not say that. Its faith not works and nothing but faith that is faith only and when someone speaks of works with faith they say no its just faith that saves nothing more. At least that is what I have heard from many but won’t say its all Protestants.
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TheLegend
Guest
This sentence paraphrases what Protestants mean by faith alone. Just saying you have faith isn’t really faith unless you do something with it. Works shows (validates) that faith someone has.
Ask most Christians what is proof of faith and it is works that are used to demonstrate that one has faith.Ok Ianman87. I understand what you are saying but the fact remains so many Protestants do not say that. Its faith not works and nothing but faith that is faith only and when someone speaks of works with faith they say no its just faith that saves nothing more. At least that is what I have heard from many but won’t say its all Protestants.
And if one asks what is faith and the answer would be holding belief in a set theology.
One of the biggest differences between Catholic and non Catholic Christians is that Catholics hold that one increases in grace through works.Because faith is received through grace.
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lanman87
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It is faith that saves and nothing more. However, that faith will have works (a changed heart and life) or it is not really faith.Ok Ianman87. I understand what you are saying but the fact remains so many Protestants do not say that. Its faith not works and nothing but faith that is faith only and when someone speaks of works with faith they say no its just faith that saves nothing more. At least that is what I have heard from many but won’t say its all Protestants.
I think many Catholics hear “Faith alone” and think it means we believe all we have to do is sign a name on a card that says, “I have faith” and that is all there is to it. While there are a few that believe that, or something like that, the vast majority of evangelical churches believe that faith is more than just a declaration. It is a total surrender and trust in Christ. That surrender necessarily produces “works of faith”.
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lanman87
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That is an eye opening sentence for me. The Evangelical understanding is that grace is received through faith.Ask most Christians what is proof of faith and it is works that are used to demonstrate that one has faith.
And if one asks what is faith and the answer would be holding belief in a set theology.
One of the biggest differences between Catholic and non Catholic Christians is that Catholics hold that one increases in grace through works.Because faith is received through grace.
And in my many years in evangelical churches I’ve always heard faith described as something like “give your heart and life to Jesus”, “totally trust Jesus”, “surrender your all to Jesus”. I think this is one thing that causes divisions. We have a different definition of faith.
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TheLegend
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Starting at the end of your post.That is an eye opening sentence for me. The Evangelical understanding is that grace is received through faith.
And in my many years in evangelical churches I’ve always heard faith described as something like “give your heart and life to Jesus”, “totally trust Jesus”, “surrender your all to Jesus”. I think this is one thing that causes divisions. We have a different definition of faith.
That is very true that definitions of the same words are different.
Who is this Jesus you speak of? There off you go into your set theology.
And how does one acquire this faith you define.
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lanman87
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The same Jesus that Catholics believe in.Who is this Jesus you speak of?
God give us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, the desire and ability to believe and trust in Christ.And how does one acquire this faith you define.
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spina1953
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Hi Ianman87, You say "It is faith that saves and nothing more then say “That faith will have works(a changed heart and life) or it is not really faith.” When you say it is faith that saves and nothing more, how is does that work since when you say that it that way nothing else goes with it, yet, then you try to clarify it by saying that faith will have works a changed heart and life or its not faith but how can that be since you already said that its just faith that saves and nothing more than that. Seems a bit confusing to say one thing then something different. As I see it it on one hand its faith only, then on the other hand you say works go with faith which contradicts the first part that faith saves and nothing more.
I think the reason as to why many Catholic’s when they hear "Faith Alone) and how it is explained generally by many non-Catholic’s its because they say and state that only faith can save anyone and one does not not need to do anything and works will not save anyone there is not faith and works faith seems to stand alone apart from works Maybe the vast majority do not think that way but that is what Catholic’s seem to hear most of the time.
If faith is a total surrender and trust in Christ then we are all in trouble since we are imperfect at best and pron to fall at any given time since none of us I think can make that claim to total surrender and trust in Christ if we could we would all then be free of every sin we could commit. In other words none of us are perfect and if it is possible only few have been able to have total surrender and trust in Christ. I can understand striving towards total surrender and trust in Christ and that is in of it self a good thing but doubt any of us can achieve that.
I think the reason as to why many Catholic’s when they hear "Faith Alone) and how it is explained generally by many non-Catholic’s its because they say and state that only faith can save anyone and one does not not need to do anything and works will not save anyone there is not faith and works faith seems to stand alone apart from works Maybe the vast majority do not think that way but that is what Catholic’s seem to hear most of the time.
If faith is a total surrender and trust in Christ then we are all in trouble since we are imperfect at best and pron to fall at any given time since none of us I think can make that claim to total surrender and trust in Christ if we could we would all then be free of every sin we could commit. In other words none of us are perfect and if it is possible only few have been able to have total surrender and trust in Christ. I can understand striving towards total surrender and trust in Christ and that is in of it self a good thing but doubt any of us can achieve that.
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TheLegend
Guest
So you do not call this ability grace?God give us, through the power of the Holy Spirit, the desire and ability to believe and trust in Christ.
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lanman87
Guest
You are correct, none of us are perfect. Even if we have great faith and hate sin with a passion we are still in our human bodies (the flesh) that has a sinful nature that we fight against and sometime give in to. I believe that the righteousness of God, that we get by Faith (believe, trust, surrender) is what makes us righteous. I don’t cause myself to be righteous because of my actions. God declares me righteous because of His grace. I receive that Grace by Faith.In other words none of us are perfect and if it is possible only few have been able to have total surrender and trust in Christ. I can understand striving towards total surrender and trust in Christ and that is in of it self a good thing but doubt any of us can achieve that.
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thephilosopher6
Guest
No, because then we’d say baptism is a work. Neither of these are works, they are in themselves free gifts that God gives us.
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MT1926
Guest
I had a busy weekend so didn’t get to respond, but I wanted to jump back in to see if I can help clarify the back and forth.
You defined faith as “believe, trust, and surrender”.
To believe is to accept or hold something as true. Both accept and hold are something you need to do.
To trust means to “believe in” the reliability, truth and strength of something. Which means you need to first accept and hold it.
Surrender means to stop resisting or submit yourself to an authority. Stopping and submitting are both action words.
If we take these statements, on “faith alone” using their correctly defined meanings, then what you are saying is that you receive Grace from God for your actions. I know that is not what you are intending, but that is how it is defined.
When we sit down and look at the words used and define the meaning of these words, we can see something doesn’t sound right. That’s why the Catholic position sounds so much better to me. We are saved by grace. Even our faith is a gift that God gives us through grace. Once grace has lead us to faith, this faith allows us to receive more of His grace. This faith working through love allows these works to give us even more grace.
To me faith is an act of the will, the definition of the word proves it. So when I hear someone insisting that we must first have faith before receiving God’s free gift of grace. Even though they tell me I’m defining it wrong, they are actually saying we must do something in order to receive grace.
Hope this helps show why faith alone doesn’t make sense.
God Bless
I can see the hang up with “faith alone” when it is defined like this.I believe that the righteousness of God, that we get by Faith (believe, trust, surrender) is what makes us righteous. I don’t cause myself to be righteous because of my actions. God declares me righteous because of His grace. I receive that Grace by Faith.
You defined faith as “believe, trust, and surrender”.
To believe is to accept or hold something as true. Both accept and hold are something you need to do.
To trust means to “believe in” the reliability, truth and strength of something. Which means you need to first accept and hold it.
Surrender means to stop resisting or submit yourself to an authority. Stopping and submitting are both action words.
If we take these statements, on “faith alone” using their correctly defined meanings, then what you are saying is that you receive Grace from God for your actions. I know that is not what you are intending, but that is how it is defined.
When we sit down and look at the words used and define the meaning of these words, we can see something doesn’t sound right. That’s why the Catholic position sounds so much better to me. We are saved by grace. Even our faith is a gift that God gives us through grace. Once grace has lead us to faith, this faith allows us to receive more of His grace. This faith working through love allows these works to give us even more grace.
To me faith is an act of the will, the definition of the word proves it. So when I hear someone insisting that we must first have faith before receiving God’s free gift of grace. Even though they tell me I’m defining it wrong, they are actually saying we must do something in order to receive grace.
Hope this helps show why faith alone doesn’t make sense.
God Bless
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Mboo
Guest
a meritorious work can be an act, a word or a thought. (just as sin can be in act, word or thought), so, a “work” does not just mean an “act”
The confession demands the contrition and the firm intention of amending, which are works in “thought”
The confession demands the contrition and the firm intention of amending, which are works in “thought”
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lanman87
Guest
Someone asked me earlier why I’m starting to lean toward the Reformed position and this is why. It is clear in the bible that faith is a gift, that salvation is because of faith and not works, and that God chooses us instead of us choosing Him. Therefore, God chooses us and gives us faith. Our believing and trusting and submitting are a result of God working in us and not ourselves.If we take these statements, on “faith alone” using their correctly defined meanings, then what you are saying is that you receive Grace from God for your actions. I know that is not what you are intending, but that is how it is defined.
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Bookcat
Guest
Pope Benedict XVI gave two audiences on Faith and Works
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126.html
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119.html
http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126.html
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MT1926
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The only thing I would add to this is God chooses everyone, not just the saved. The ones who use their free will to respond to this initial free gift of grace are the ones who may be saved. So God isn’t doing all of the believing and trusting and submitting. We still have to cooperate. This is the Catholic position. The reformed position denies free will which just seems to cause all kind of other problems.Therefore, God chooses us and gives us faith. Our believing and trusting and submitting are a result of God working in us and not ourselves.
Have you tried looking a little deeper into the Catholic position? Which points are you having troubles with? I might be biased because I’m a cradle Catholic, but in all of my research it seems to be the most logical.
God Bless
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De_Maria
Guest
It seems to me that confession requires conversion, sincere repentance and honest recitation of one’s sins. That sounds like good works to me.
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lanman87
Guest
This is what I was taught in the Southern Baptist church and is basically the Arminian position on how one comes to have faith. God gives us grace to believe, which is a conviction of the Holy Spirit when we hear the Gospel. We can choose to accept or reject the Gospel. Saving Faith is surrendering to the Gospel and comes by God’s grace and helps us grown in God’s grace.The only thing I would add to this is God chooses everyone, not just the saved. The ones who use their free will to respond to this initial free gift of grace are the ones who may be saved.
My big question for both Arminians and Catholics (which have similar positions) is “is faith a work”? It seems to me that if it is an action we must take (agree with God, cooperate with God, or however you want to put it) then it is a something we do and therefore salvation is, at least partially, of ourselves.
However, the bible says that “By grace you are saved through faith, it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”. The reformed position answers the question of how faith is not of yourself.
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MT1926
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I don’t know the Arminian position and I don’t think the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined whether or not faith is a work. What I was getting at is by a logical definition faith is a work.My big question for both Arminians and Catholics (which have similar positions) is “is faith a work”? It seems to me that if it is an action we must take (agree with God, cooperate with God, or however you want to put it) then it is a something we do and therefore salvation is, at least partially, of ourselves.
That being said the Church teaches that we are saved and justified by “grace alone” in the sense that it is God alone, and therefore, God’s grace alone that is the first cause of our salvation…
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast.
However, the Church also teaches that we must cooperate and apply that grace in our lives.
The Bible makes it equally clear that we are also “justified by works,” “obedience,” our “words,” our “faithful[ness],” and more. All of these must be empowered by God’s grace to be meritorious before God.
(CCC 2010) Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
Cont…
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MT1926
Guest
The Bible is clear that WE must contribute to our own justification before God.
James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Romans 6:16: “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Greek eis dikaiosunein is “leads to justification”).
Matt. 12:36-37: “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Romans 2:14: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”
The Bible also tells us that WE must be faithful and obey Christ:
Matt. 10:22: “You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”
Rev. 2:10: “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
I John 1:7-9: “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Matt. 10:28-33: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”
Other verses tell us…
We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10)
We must be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16)
We must persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6)
We must keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19)
James even goes on to say that the elect have no choice but to cooperate with God’s grace, totally eliminating free will. I don’t believe that is a good position to hold because it makes God a tyrant because those who don’t cooperate with His grace don’t do it because God never wanted them to be saved in the first place.
I’ve also heard some reformers state that since no good work(charity) can earn them salvation then no bad work(sin) can keep them from being saved. That is a scary thought in my mind.
Let me know what you think. Also, wouldn’t mind hearing your reformed position.
God Bless
James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Romans 6:16: “Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness (Greek eis dikaiosunein is “leads to justification”).
Matt. 12:36-37: “I tell you, on the day of judgment men will render account for every careless word they utter; for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
Romans 2:14: “For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.”
The Bible also tells us that WE must be faithful and obey Christ:
Matt. 10:22: “You will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.”
Rev. 2:10: “Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.”
I John 1:7-9: “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin… If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”
Matt. 10:28-33: “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell… So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven; but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.”
Other verses tell us…
We must “repent” (Acts 2:38; 3:19; Mark 1:15; II Cor. 7:8-10)
We must be baptized (John 3:3-5; Romans 6:3-4; I Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Mark 16:16)
We must persevere in obedience (Gal. 6:7-9; Romans 2:6-7; Acts 5:32; Heb. 5:8-9; II Tim. 2:12; John 15:1-6)
We must keep the commandments (Matt. 19:16; I Cor. 7:19)
Yes they do, but the reformed position that I have heard (for instance from James White), says that every verse I posted above tells us what a saved person “will do” not what they “must do”. That’s a ton of verse that you need to add the words “a saved person will endure to the end” A saved person will be a doer of the law", etc…However, the bible says that “By grace you are saved through faith, it is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God”. The reformed position answers the question of how faith is not of yourself.
James even goes on to say that the elect have no choice but to cooperate with God’s grace, totally eliminating free will. I don’t believe that is a good position to hold because it makes God a tyrant because those who don’t cooperate with His grace don’t do it because God never wanted them to be saved in the first place.
I’ve also heard some reformers state that since no good work(charity) can earn them salvation then no bad work(sin) can keep them from being saved. That is a scary thought in my mind.
Let me know what you think. Also, wouldn’t mind hearing your reformed position.
God Bless
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