Salvation and Mental Illness

[wmscott]

I have a step-brother who through years of pain meds and mental stress is now mentally “ill”. He cannot function in his daily needs such as paying rent, buying groceries, taking meds as prescribed, cleaning his home…. And so on without some kind of assistance or supervision. He used to be full of life and caring, a good Christian and father. Now he is divorced, his kids want nothing to do with him because every time he is with them he trashes their mother. My dad and step-mom have kicked him out for verbally abusing them and he will never return. He is truly mentally messed up.

The question I have is that he no longer believes in God and Jesus, and becomes overly irate when They are brought up or discussed. My step-mom fears for his salvation because of his stance on God. I have told her that because of his mental condition that God knows his heart and mental state, that we have to trust in God to be compassionate and understanding, that in His infinite wisdom and compassion He will forgive my step-brother and will not be lost.

Is there any official Church teaching on this subject? I have tried to find it in the CCC but cant. Thanks in advance for any help on this.

 

[Nita]

…The question I have is that he no longer believes in God and Jesus, and becomes overly irate when They are brought up or discussed. My step-mom fears for his salvation because of his stance on God. I have told her that because of his mental condition that God knows his heart and mental state, that we have to trust in God to be compassionate and understanding, that in His infinite wisdom and compassion He will forgive my step-brother and** will not be lost**.

Is there any official Church teaching on this subject? I have tried to find it in the CCC but cant. Thanks in advance for any help on this.

What you have said to your step-mom is correct EXCEPT for (he) “will not be lost”. We cannot say a person “will not be lost” because that is something only God alone knows; He alone knows hearts and minds and He alone can make that judgement.

Here is a section in the Catechism that deals with our culpability for sinful acts:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

 

[wmscott]

What you have said to your step-mom is correct EXCEPT for (he) “will not be lost”. We cannot say a person “will not be lost” because that is something only God alone knows; He alone knows hearts and minds and He alone can make that judgement.

Here is a section in the Catechism that deals with our culpability for sinful acts:

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P6C.HTM

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. the promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

But I did preface it by saying “we have to trust in God to be compassionate and understanding” leaving the door open for waht ever God wills. However, I still feel that someone who is mentally ill and not in control of their faculties is not responsible for being in control and ensuring to the best of their abilities their pursuit of salvation.

While I appreciate you responding and trying to help, I am having a hard time connecting the CCC chapters you have cited with his situation and mental illness.

 

[kepha1]

							 								 								**God's Image In  								the Mentally Ill Person**
							** 								 								**Cardinal Lozano Barragán's  								Address at World Day of the Sick 
							
							ADELAIDE, Australia, FEB. 18, 2006 Here is an  								excerpt of an address Cardinal Javier Lozano  								Barragán, president of the Pontifical Council  								for Health Care Workers, prepared for World Day  								of the Sick. 
							
							[Is the Mentally Ill Patient a Deformed Image of  								God?

](http://www.penitents.org/mentalillness.htm)

hope this helps.

 

[wmscott]

							 								 								**God's Image In  								the Mentally Ill Person**
							** 								 								**Cardinal Lozano Barragán's  								Address at World Day of the Sick 
							
							ADELAIDE, Australia, FEB. 18, 2006 Here is an  								excerpt of an address Cardinal Javier Lozano  								Barragán, president of the Pontifical Council  								for Health Care Workers, prepared for World Day  								of the Sick. 
							
							[Is the Mentally Ill Patient a Deformed Image of  								God?

](http://www.penitents.org/mentalillness.htm)

hope this helps.

Very much so. thanks

 

[Nita]

…While I appreciate you responding and trying to help, I am having a hard time connecting the CCC chapters you have cited with his situation and mental illness.

I cited the chapters to show that the Church teaches there are factors (pathological disorders) that may lessen our guilt/culpability. Mental illness can be considered a pathological disorder.

I thought you were looking for something official (by the Church) that showed your brother’s mental condition might lessen his guilt for some of his sinful actions - actions that might place him in a state of mortal sin if he were not mentally ill,

 

[wmscott]

I cited the chapters to show that the Church teaches there are factors (pathological disorders) that may lessen our guilt/culpability. Mental illness can be considered a pathological disorder.

I thought you were looking for something official (by the Church) that showed your brother’s mental condition might lessen his guilt for some of his sinful actions - actions that might place him in a state of mortal sin if he were not mentally ill,

Thanks Nita, I may not have comprehended the citations very well.

 

[Holly3278]

This is a subject that I am highly interested in. A priest who was my former associate pastor and is trained in psychology told me that I cannot commit a mortal sin due to my Borderline Personality Disorder. My spiritual director who is a lady who used to teach religious ed has also told me the same thing. Unfortunately, I have doubts about what they say and I believe I can commit a mortal sin. I just wish I knew for sure whether or not I can.

 

[Nita]

This is a subject that I am highly interested in. A priest who was my former associate pastor and is trained in psychology told me that I cannot commit a mortal sin due to my Borderline Personality Disorder. My spiritual director who is a lady who used to teach religious ed has also told me the same thing. Unfortunately, I have doubts about what they say and I believe I can commit a mortal sin. I just wish I knew for sure whether or not I can.

I would say not to worry about something you’ve not yet done. If you do sin, confess it; it is forgiven whether it is a mortal sin or a venial sin if you are sorry for having offended Our Lord.

If you’re not sure how serious the sin was that you committed, but think it might have been mortal, then refrain from Communion until you can go to Confession. That way you won’t add to your anxiety by worrying about whether you received Communion in the state of mortal sin.

 

[Jayne_L]

This is a subject that I am highly interested in. A priest who was my former associate pastor and is trained in psychology told me that I cannot commit a mortal sin due to my Borderline Personality Disorder. My spiritual director who is a lady who used to teach religious ed has also told me the same thing. Unfortunately, I have doubts about what they say and I believe I can commit a mortal sin. I just wish I knew for sure whether or not I can.

That’s very interesting. I had Borderline for many years and was never advised this. My Parish priest knew I had a mental illness and that I was in hospital regularly for it, but he never bothered to ask what. He just accepted my confession and gave me absolution.

My thinking on it would be that at it’s extreme, there is good reason to say someone with Borderline can not sin mortally but as it is bought under control, and eventually cured (I am officially cured although I still have some aspects of the illness), this lack of accountability would diminish.

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

It’s very hard to deal with a relative with such challenges, especially if they verbally abuse people and lash out at the mention of God. I had someone in my family, growing up, with very difficult issues. Please know that there is always hope. Over the years, I was grateful for small moments when we could communicate, but I do know that God is and was so much more compassionate than I ever was.
:harp::hug1::grouphug: I will certainly say a special prayer for everyone, and wish you all the patience and wisdom to face each day. God sees your suffering too, and I like to think of that verse, how Christ is a “friend closer than a brother.” :angel1:
Kathryn Ann

 

[Holly3278]

That’s very interesting. I had Borderline for many years and was never advised this. My Parish priest knew I had a mental illness and that I was in hospital regularly for it, but he never bothered to ask what. He just accepted my confession and gave me absolution.

My thinking on it would be that at it’s extreme, there is good reason to say someone with Borderline can not sin mortally but as it is bought under control, and eventually cured (I am officially cured although I still have some aspects of the illness), this lack of accountability would diminish.

I am not sure that I would consider my condition to be extreme but it is severe in my case. I am very impulsive. I suppose this varies to one degree or another for various people who have Borderline Personality Disorder.

Also, I know this is an old thread but I wanted to answer your post here and I also wanted to revive the thread because I am still interested in the topic.

 

[thistle]

I have a step-brother who through years of pain meds and mental stress is now mentally “ill”. He cannot function in his daily needs such as paying rent, buying groceries, taking meds as prescribed, cleaning his home…. And so on without some kind of assistance or supervision. He used to be full of life and caring, a good Christian and father. Now he is divorced, his kids want nothing to do with him because every time he is with them he trashes their mother. My dad and step-mom have kicked him out for verbally abusing them and he will never return. He is truly mentally messed up.

The question I have is that he no longer believes in God and Jesus, and becomes overly irate when They are brought up or discussed. My step-mom fears for his salvation because of his stance on God. I have told her that because of his mental condition that God knows his heart and mental state, that we have to trust in God to be compassionate and understanding, that in His infinite wisdom and compassion He will forgive my step-brother and will not be lost.

Is there any official Church teaching on this subject? I have tried to find it in the CCC but cant. Thanks in advance for any help on this.

Nobody can say a particular person will be saved or not because only God knows the state of a person’s soul at death, not us.
Secondly, even if a person’s culpability can be reduced due to mental incapacity we don’t know if such a person was already in a state of mortal sin prior to any mental illness or incapacity starting.

 

[Sirach2]

Nobody can say a particular person will be saved or not because only God knows the state of a person’s soul at death, not us.
Secondly, even if a person’s culpability can be reduced due to mental incapacity we don’t know if such a person was already in a state of -]mortal sin/-] sanctifying grace prior to any mental illness or incapacity starting.

Why be so negative? It could be just the reverse, yes?

 

[Sirach2]

wmscott:

He used to be full of life and caring, a good Christian and father.

OP, If you are still here and following the thread, have you studied anything about geriatrics and the effects of aging; such as, dementia, alzheimers’ disease, and the like? These people can be very mean, without really wishing to inflict others, but they are not responsible in many cases. It is a deep affliction for family members who care for them, especially when they know that this is not their true selves. God understands the hidden self and all the particulars that makeup who he is today, and will be merciful in judging him accordingly. Please commend him to Our Lord and His mercy and try not to worry, for as He said in Hosea 11:9, “For I am GOD, and not man.”

 

[thistle]

Why be so negative? It could be just the reverse, yes?

I agree but whenever anyone talks about family or friends they cannot bear to think they might not be or have been saved when they die/died so they always say they lived a good life and God will be merciful and save them. Well the bottom line is nobody knows who is saved or not. Only God knows so we cannot say who is or is not saved.
Its like when people talk about those who commit suicide. Sure, mental incapacity could reduce culpability for that act but we don’t know what state their soul was in prior to that.
There is too much sugar coating when it comes to family and friends and I wish priests would speak out more often in homilies about mortal sin and Hell.

All we can say with certainty is that if a person dies in a state of grace they are saved and if they die in a state of mortal sin they go to Hell.

 

[Sirach2]

There is too much sugar coating when it comes to family and friends

I suppose, Thistle. But when we have an opportunity to express how full a glass is, why do some of us say, “half empty” rather than “half full?” Isn’t that a predisposition to always believe the worst? Is it a kindness to say to someone whose loved one has just died:

• (s)he may be in hell,
• we cannot assure you, for we just don’t know,
• only a few make it to heaven, the less frequently traveled narrow road,
• or … with compassion for their loss …
• God’s greatest attribute is his Infinite Mercy and He will judge accordingly.

Why is that so difficult?
What would you want to hear in the same situation?

Why deprive a person of hope?

 

[thistle]

I suppose, Thistle. But when we have an opportunity to express how full a glass is, why do some of us say, “half empty” rather than “half full?” Isn’t that a predisposition to always believe the worst? Is it a kindness to say to someone whose loved one has just died:

• (s)he may be in hell,
• we cannot assure you, for we just don’t know,
• only a few make it to heaven, the less frequently traveled narrow road,
• or … with compassion for their loss …
• God’s greatest attribute is his Infinite Mercy and He will judge accordingly.

Why is that so difficult?
What would you want to hear in the same situation?

Why deprive a person of hope?

If you read the OP’s post it is a different story. Its about someone who is alive and kicking and yet the OP is stating the person “will not be lost”. That is salvation assurance which is a heresy.

We can all hope and pray that our loved ones will be/have been saved but only God knows that. If we state in advance a person will be saved we are equating ourselves to God.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Sometimes I think it is a blessing from God that we DON’T know for sure whether our relatives who have died are in Hell or not.

If they are in Hell and we knew that it might lead us to despair just thinking of all the awfulness of their condition.

If we knew for sure that they were in Heaven we might wonder if we could also get there.

We know God is a God of mercy and also of justice.

Just always pray for your dead relatives and all who have died–they may be suffering in purgatory and are of need of our prayers–if they have indeed gone to Hell our prayers for them will benefit someone else in purgatory who needs our prayers.