Salvation and Rewards

[Third_Day]

I have been in conversation with an ex-Catholic that is considering starting his own “church”. I have made some points with him and he has even accepted some of the interpretations of scripture from the Catholic tradition.
Today he hit me with something I have never heard from any other non-Catholic. Have any of you ever heard of this belief.?
He believes that once we accept Christ as our Savior, we cannot lose our salvation even if we do not confess and repent. I showed him several passages that contradict this belief. Now here is where he gave me somehing new. He said that salvation and “reward” are not the same thing. If you sin and do not confess or repent you only lose your “reward” but not your “salvation”.
He says that when scripture says that we are rewarded according to what we have done, it is not talking about salvation but rewards in heaven. He says there are different levels in heaven and we are rewarded with these levels. These can be taken away but eternal life, eternal salvation can never be taken away. By the way, he is Baptist.
Thanks

 

[Nita]

I have been in conversation with an ex-Catholic that is considering starting his own “church”. I have made some points with him and he has even accepted some of the interpretations of scripture from the Catholic tradition.
Today he hit me with something I have never heard from any other non-Catholic. Have any of you ever heard of this belief.?
He believes that once we accept Christ as our Savior, we cannot lose our salvation even if we do not confess and repent. I showed him several passages that contradict this belief. Now here is where he gave me somehing new. He said that salvation and “reward” are not the same thing. If you sin and do not confess or repent you only lose your “reward” but not your “salvation”.
He says that when scripture says that we are rewarded according to what we have done, it is not talking about salvation but rewards in heaven. He says there are different levels in heaven and we are rewarded with these levels. These can be taken away but eternal life, eternal salvation can never be taken away. By the way, he is Baptist.
Thanks

I have also heard of this belief.
The error is in their belief that one cannot lose salvation after initially believing in, and accepting, Jesus as God and Savior. It’s often referred to as the belief of “once saved, always saved”. (You’ll see it abbreviated here on the forum as OSAS.)

There are many passages that show we can lose our salvation after accepting Jesus. Eg. St. Paul in speaking to the baptized, believing Christians in Galatia says:
Gal. 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, … and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who **do **such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Further references concerning losing one’s salvation after having first believed:
**Mt. 13:18-21 **(Parable of the sower and seeds) …“the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart:” …“receives it with joy; … when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.”
**Gal 4:9 **"but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more? "
Gal 5:4 (Context is Christians who return to OT practices) "…you have fallen away from grace.
**Heb 2:1 ** Therefore we must pay the closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.
**2 Peter 2:20 **For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
**2 Peter 3:17 **…beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.It’s important to keep in mind that Paul’s letters were written to Christian communities whose members came to belief and baptism as adults; adult’s who made a personal, public, profession of faith and acceptance of Our Lord. It’s obvious Paul didn’t believe in or preach the “once saved, always saved” doctrine. Rather, he specifically warns them that they can lose their salvation if they do not live properly.

Catholic teaching also believes in rewards according to what we have done. But any “rewards” are conditional on our remaining in union with God – on not severing that unity with Him by commiting serious sin.

 

[Luke65]

Well, Nita pretty well covered it (), but I want to make sure you understand that your friend is right about salvation and rewards being two different things. Salvation is referred to in the Scriptures as our “inheritance”, but “rewards” are above and beyond our inheritance. The Church Fathers usually spoke of rewards as being how highly venerated we are among the saints; the Scriptures speak of our “crown” - so that’s the idea, but of course we won’t know til we get there! And those who choose Hell will likewise be “rewarded”, that is, punished according to their deeds (Matt. 16:27).

But, as Nita pointed out, your friend believes in OSAS, which is refuted by the whole Bible! But my favorite example is the parable of the Prodigal Son. Because in baptism we become children of God, and inheritors of His Kingdom. But like the Prodigal Son most of us squander our inheritance, and its only when we repent and turn our hearts back to God that our inheritance is restored. For Catholics (and Orthodox) that means Confession, but if you’re not Catholic then you have to have a perfect contrition for all your mortal sins before you die, and you need a great deal of God’s grace to have a perfect contrition; and of course, if you don’t believe you need to repent then you’re really in trouble. So pray for your friend, try to explain to him what you have learned here, but I would just ask him: If the Prodigal Son didn’t go back home to his father, how would his inheritance have been restored? God bless.

 

[Third_Day]

=Nita;5542012]I have also heard of this belief.
The error is in their belief that one cannot lose salvation after initially believing in, and accepting, Jesus as God and Savior. It’s often referred to as the belief of “once saved, always saved”. (You’ll see it abbreviated here on the forum as OSAS.)

My problem is not with OSAS.

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

**
THis is one of the passages I gave to him. He said this means that we can lose our rewards in heaven but not our salvation.
THis is where I told him that if you lose your “rewards” in heaven you have also lost your salvation… I am wrong?

Catholic teaching also believes in rewards according to what we have done. But any “rewards” are conditional on our remaining in union with God – on not severing that unity with Him by commiting serious sin.

What kind of rewards besides eternal life are there?**

 

[Third_Day]

=Luke65;5542399]Well, Nita pretty well covered it (), but I want to make sure you understand that your friend is right about salvation and rewards being two different things. Salvation is referred to in the Scriptures as our “inheritance”, but “rewards” are above and beyond our inheritance The Church Fathers usually spoke of rewards as being how highly venerated we are among the saints;

Are you saying there are different levels of happiness in heaven? He believes that if you acceptt Christ, you can commit adultery, not confess or repent, and you will simply lose your “rewards” in heaven but not your salvation. I don’t see two the two can be separated. His belief goes beyong OSAS and embraces a difference between rewards and salvation. I don’t see a difference.

So pray for your friend, try to explain to him what you have learned here, but I would just ask him: If the Prodigal Son didn’t go back home to his father, how would his inheritance have been restored? God bless.

The Prodigal Son was brought. up. He says that the father in the story represents God. THe analogy is that when the son returned home he accepted Christ as his personal savior for the first time. Therefore he was born again and his inheritance was given to him. He can, through sin , lose some of his inheritance but never all of it. He can lose some of his reward through sin but never his inheritance(salvation). He says the Prodigal Son supports the teaching of OSAS
It seems to me that you cannot lose your rewards and keep your salvation, they go together… I have talked to other baptists and no one has ever brought up this concept of a difference between rewards and eternal life.

 

[hatsoff]

From 1 Co 3:

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[Cachonga]

It seems Paul addressed this same heresy in Romans 6. The entire chapter is a good discussion, but specifically verses 15-16 (“What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? ” KJV). I had a roommate in college who believed this way, so I’m familiar with it. Unfortunately, I didn’t know then what I know now, so (as far as I know) he’s still lost in this belief. I would also remind your friend of the parable of the sower and the seeds (as already mentioned by Nita). The seed is the Word entering the hearts of men. Some falls on hard hearts and is snatched up quickly, other falls on rocky ground, springs up quickly and dies when the heat of persecution comes along. Some seed falls among thorns, and the plant is choked out by the cares of the world and the lust of things. Finally, some seed falls on good ground (these are assured of salvation and bear fruit). You can find all of these types in the Church today (maybe you personally know some of these types), but only God knows their hearts (remember Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-10)?). That’s why Paul gave the warnings he did. The warnings are a way we can check ourselves to see what kind of seed we are.

Finally, in regard to a difference between salvation and reward, of course there’s a difference. We all know there are different rewards in Heaven (unless you think you’ll receive the same reward as Peter, Paul or Mary). 1 Cor 3:10-15 (already given by hatsoff) shows that those who will be saved are saved, even if their works are burned up . Everyone receives a reward, except those whose works are burned up (“If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”). What does this mean? Think about this, if you come home from work and find that your house has burned to the ground, and everything inside was completely destroyed, what would you have left? Of course, this doesn’t have the same impact it did when Paul wrote it because they didn’t have bank accounts, credit cards, insurance, etc…, but I think you can still understand the meaning.

 

[Third_Day]

=hatsoff;5543032]From 1 Co 3:

5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. You are God’s field, God’s building
​

.
Of course we can do nothing without the grace of God.

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done

On judgment day we will be judged on what kind of works we have done

14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

For me, this is a clear verse on the Catholic doctrine of purgatory. We will be saved through the purifying fires of purgatory because nothing unclean can enter heaven.​

 

[Third_Day]

=Cachonga;5543184] I would also remind your friend of the parable of the sower and the seeds (as already mentioned by Nita). The seed is the Word entering the hearts of men. Some falls on hard hearts and is snatched up quickly, other falls on rocky ground, springs up quickly and dies when the heat of persecution comes along. Some seed falls among thorns, and the plant is choked out by the cares of the world and the lust of things. Finally, some seed falls on good ground (these are assured of salvation and bear fruit).

Sorry, I do not accept absolute assurance of salvation.

Finally, in regard to a difference between salvation and reward, of course there’s a difference. We all know there are different rewards in Heaven (unless you think you’ll receive the same reward as Peter, Paul or Mary).

Yes, I accept that the saints and the martyers will be exalted in heaven

1 Cor 3:10-15 (already given by hatsoff) shows that those who will be saved are saved, even if their works are burned up .

Sorry but I don’t see that they are saved.

Everyone receives a reward, except those whose works are burned up (“If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”). What does this mean?

Not what you are about to tell me. Your interpretation is based on the fact that you reject the doctrine of purgatory. I see clearly that the wood, hay, stubble, are unprofitable, vain, usless works and lesser sins that do not require eternal damnation. These need to be removed from our soul so that we may enter heaven in a pure state. That is the only possible meaning of “saved ,but only as through fire”

 

[Luke65]

THis is where I told him that if you lose your “rewards” in heaven you have also lost your salvation… I am wrong?

Well, you’re right that St. Peter was talking about the loss of salvation. But you can have all of your rewards burned up and still be “saved”, which is what St. Paul was talking about.

Are you saying there are different levels of happiness in heaven?

No, not different levels of happiness - everyone in Heaven is in perfect bliss seeing the Beatific Vision.

He believes that if you acceptt Christ, you can commit adultery, not confess or repent, and you will simply lose your “rewards” in heaven but not your salvation. I don’t see two the two can be separated. His belief goes beyong OSAS and embraces a difference between rewards and salvation. I don’t see a difference.

No, that is OSAS - even if all of its adherents don’t realize it. But most of them do, and say that Paul is speaking of our rewards from our good works being burned up by our evil works - which is true. They just don’t acknowledge that this takes place in Purgatory. But in Purgatory OSAS is true! Not so on earth.

The Prodigal Son was brought. up. He says that the father in the story represents God. THe analogy is that when the son returned home he accepted Christ as his personal savior for the first time. Therefore he was born again and his inheritance was given to him. He can, through sin , lose some of his inheritance but never all of it. He can lose some of his reward through sin but never his inheritance(salvation). He says the Prodigal Son supports the teaching of OSAS

Well, there you see him force-fitting his theology on the Word. The Prodigal Son was already in his father’s household. He was already given his inheritance and squandered it. So, to keep the analogy true, he already accepted salvation from Jesus Christ but squandered it, only to have it restored, but only because he repented. This parable falsifies OSAS - for those who have eyes to see.

It seems to me that you cannot lose your rewards and keep your salvation, they go together… I have talked to other baptists and no one has ever brought up this concept of a difference between rewards and eternal life.

Then they don’t know the full OSAS doctrine, or it just didn’t come up. But most Protestants and Catholics understand that it is our rewards that are being burned up, not our salvation, since we are “saved, but only as through fire.” But again, that’s in Purgatory, where only the saved go.

I see clearly that the wood, hay, stubble, are unprofitable, vain, usless works and lesser sins that do not require eternal damnation. These need to be removed from our soul so that we may enter heaven in a pure state. That is the only possible meaning of “saved ,but only as through fire”

No question, mortal sins must be repented for before death. As I said before, that is the most dangerous aspect of OSAS, to think that you don’t need to repent once you have “accepted Christ”. And of course, it also removes a huge deterrent to sin, if you think you can’t lose your salvation. See Haydock for a full exegesis on this passage.

 

[poetryforjesus]

To insist a linear separation between salvation and rewards is to turn God into a law, to turn a relationship into a legal issue, to completely disregard the heart of both salvation and rewards which is love, and to endanger our very spiritual life. Why do people insist on such a separation? What is it they want? Why do they insist that one can sin and never lose salvation? Are they afraid that people will be nervous about sinning? Do they doubt that God’s goodness and power can enable them to not sin?

Something is seriously wrong if one hinges their belief in this “once saved, always saved” doctrine. Their belief is no longer centered on God’s loving Heart which is deadly wounded by sin; they refuse to think about the suffering that God endures from our sins; they want to be guaranteed about their own safety no matter what. It’s all about themselves. I do not believe these people will truly comprehend what salvation means, what eternal life means.

 

[ryanoneil]

This article specifically speaks to your conversation in the fifth paragraph.

 

[cheeto1]

To insist a linear separation between salvation and rewards is to turn God into a law, to turn a relationship into a legal issue, to completely disregard the heart of both salvation and rewards which is love, and to endanger our very spiritual life. Why do people insist on such a separation? What is it they want? Why do they insist that one can sin and never lose salvation? Are they afraid that people will be nervous about sinning? Do they doubt that God’s goodness and power can enable them to not sin?

Something is seriously wrong if one hinges their belief in this “once saved, always saved” doctrine. Their belief is no longer centered on God’s loving Heart which is deadly wounded by sin; they refuse to think about the suffering that God endures from our sins; they want to be guaranteed about their own safety no matter what. It’s all about themselves. I do not believe these people will truly comprehend what salvation means, what eternal life means.

I am struck by the truth of all your words. Do you truly comprehend what salvation
means, and what eternal life means? Even the apostles were still asking each
other, after seeing the transfiguration, though they had seen Lazarus, the 12 year old girl, and the widow of Naim’s son all raised to life…

 

[poetryforjesus]

I am struck by the truth of all your words. Do you truly comprehend what salvation
means, and what eternal life means? Even the apostles were still asking each
other, after seeing the transfiguration, though they had seen Lazarus, the 12 year old girl, and the widow of Naim’s son all raised to life…

I’m sorry. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that. I don’t know what people know or don’t know. I’m just frustrated at hearing that salvation and rewards are two separate things.

 

[Nita]

My problem is not with OSAS.
**
**
I reread your first post. Is the ex-Catholic speaking about an adult first coming to Christ, and having only to profess a belief and acceptance of Christ without having to repent of previous sins? In other words, repentance for sin is not a necessary part of the initial act of “being saved”?

I’ll just give a couple of Scripture passages regarding that situation:
Mt. 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Mark 1:14-15 …Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Luke 13:3-5 I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish…

Acts 2:37-38 …and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you…”

(You might try a Bible word search on “repent” - or equivalents.)

THis is one of the passages I gave to him. He said this means that we can lose our rewards

 

[Luke65]

I’m sorry. Maybe I shouldn’t have said that. I don’t know what people know or don’t know. I’m just frustrated at hearing that salvation and rewards are two separate things.

I understand your concern, if your concern is that people would do good works simply for the reward (or salvation). But Protestants can say that Catholics only do good works because they think they have to “earn their salvation” - oh wait, they do say that! Obviously, people can have the wrong motives, but God knows the heart, and besides, that is not a reason to reject what God has revealed. It is God who has spoken of our “inheritance” as His children, and “rewards” for the good fruit we bear. I mentioned earlier that the Church Fathers spoke of rewards in regard to how venerated we are by our fellow Saints, and St. Paul spoke of our “crown of glory”; but today I was reading the Council of Trent o) and I came across this:

ON JUSTIFICATION
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

So you see, we are talking about two different things, and this is de fide, so believe it, but keep focusing on doing the will of God simply for the love of God. God bless.

P.S. I loved your latest poem!