Salvation as a 'free gift'

[exiled]

Good morning,
Is there a translations/interpretation/definition of the Scripture that says that salvation is a “free gift”, that is not to be earned?
I’m chatting with a Bible Christian, and I’d like to challenge the translation, or interpretation. Are the words of the original text truly translated as “free gift”? How can I explain that that does not mean that we are not to “work out our salvation”, and (in my words) pay the debt we owe to God insofar as we are able.

 

[Theophorus]

Salvation is a free gift of God, we cannot earn it by our works alone(palegian heresy) your friends problem may be in their interpretation of how grace works in us to affect our salvation. Let me qualify he, we are saved by the Grace of God, but Grace is not forced on us we must freely choose to cooperate with it. Catholic answers has a few good articles on the subject including: catholic.com/tracts/grace-what-it-is-and-what-it-does

God bless

 

[bmullins]

Someone once compared it to a can of paint that is given you by a friend. It is indeed free. They have purchased it, they have delivered it, it’s sitting in your living room. The room still has to be painted.

Grace is indeed a free gift from God. It’s right there. Signed, sealed, and delivered by the Cross of Jesus Christ. But we still have to apply it. We still have to ‘paint’ our lives with that grace. That is where our ‘works’ come in. We are going to mass, to confession, feeding the homeless, serving the poor… all of these ways paint our lives with God’s grace… so that our outside match our inside, so that the grace is visible to the world… so that Jesus, the source of that grace, radiates from us in a way that people see not us anymore but him.

 

[exiled]

Someone once compared it to a can of paint that is given you by a friend. It is indeed free. They have purchased it, they have delivered it, it’s sitting in your living room. The room still has to be painted.

Grace is indeed a free gift from God. It’s right there. Signed, sealed, and delivered by the Cross of Jesus Christ. But we still have to apply it. We still have to ‘paint’ our lives with that grace. That is where our ‘works’ come in. We are going to mass, to confession, feeding the homeless, serving the poor… all of these ways paint our lives with God’s grace… so that our outside match our inside, so that the grace is visible to the world… so that Jesus, the source of that grace, radiates from us in a way that people see not us anymore but him.

But the problem with the Protestant is that is still a free gift that can’t be taken away, or lost. I think most of them acknowledge that we are called to do something with that paint, but if you just tuck it away in the garage, it’s still yours.
I guess I should’ve said this in the OP, but I’m trying to point out that we are still called to expiate our sins, either by sacrifices in this life, or in Purgatory. That’s what I’m ultimately hoping to get through to them.
But, naturally, they are saying that we need no purification because Christ has cleansed us completely.

 

[JRKH]

But the problem with the Protestant is that is still a free gift that can’t be taken away, or lost. I think most of them acknowledge that we are called to do something with that paint, but if you just tuck it away in the garage, it’s still yours.
I guess I should’ve said this in the OP, but I’m trying to point out that we are still called to expiate our sins, either by sacrifices in this life, or in Purgatory. That’s what I’m ultimately hoping to get through to them.
But, naturally, they are saying that we need no purification because Christ has cleansed us completely.

There is so much difficulty in these kinds of discussions that you have to be careful. Take the time with this person to carefully define terms - how he understands them and how you do…This will go a long way in helping.

The thing about the paint being given…Yes it is given as a free gift, but is it given for no reason? Or is there an intent in offering this gift of paint.

The person who converts is basically saying that I want to repent (repaint?) and become a new person. God says great, here is the grace (paint), brushes, etc…
I haven’t time to look it up but the NT letters contain verses about people who claim conversion but then continue in sin and how this is not good.

Your friend probably believes much that is correct theologically. Try to get together on these points and also on some definitions/principles and you and he will both find the discussion fulfilling.

Peace
James

 

[LegoGE1947]

There is so much difficulty in these kinds of discussions that you have to be careful. Take the time with this person to carefully define terms - how he understands them and how you do…This will go a long way in helping.

The thing about the paint being given…Yes it is given as a free gift, but is it given for no reason? Or is there an intent in offering this gift of paint.

The person who converts is basically saying that I want to repent (repaint?) and become a new person. God says great, here is the grace (paint), brushes, etc…
I haven’t time to look it up but the NT letters contain verses about people who claim conversion but then continue in sin and how this is not good.

Your friend probably believes much that is correct theologically. Try to get together on these points and also on some definitions/principles and you and he will both find the discussion fulfilling.

Peace
James

Whether salvation is “free” or not one thing is certain–It certainly wasn’t CHEAP! It cost God Plenty as proven by looking long and hard at any crucifix!

 

[septimine]

I agree with the free gift – you cannot get to heaven without Jesus, but at the same time, if you have the kind of faith that really saves you, you’d be doing good works. I don’t think “facts faith” is quite enough. I’m probably going all over the place, but if all you have faith in is that there was a guy named jesus who died on a cross and came out of a grave somewhere in Israel, it’s not faith, or at least not a real faith in Jesus. A faith that God loved you enough to die for you personally and give you eternal life is going to produce a response. so it’s kind of both right and wrong at the same time. You don’t go anywhere just because you went to Mass and gave to charity. You go to heaven because of Jesus. But if you don’t want to go to church, and you have no love for others, you probably don’t really have faith.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I agree with the free gift – you cannot get to heaven without Jesus, but at the same time, if you have the kind of faith that really saves you, you’d be doing good works. I don’t think “facts faith” is quite enough. I’m probably going all over the place, but if all you have faith in is that there was a guy named jesus who died on a cross and came out of a grave somewhere in Israel, it’s not faith, or at least not a real faith in Jesus. A faith that God loved you enough to die for you personally and give you eternal life is going to produce a response. so it’s kind of both right and wrong at the same time. You don’t go anywhere just because you went to Mass and gave to charity. You go to heaven because of Jesus. But if you don’t want to go to church, and you have no love for others, you probably don’t really have faith.

Even the demons believe, and tremble! But that doesn’t mean they’ll ever be saved.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with the free gift – you cannot get to heaven without Jesus, but at the same time, if you have the kind of faith that really saves you, you’d be doing good works. I don’t think “facts faith” is quite enough. I’m probably going all over the place, but if all you have faith in is that there was a guy named jesus who died on a cross and came out of a grave somewhere in Israel, it’s not faith, or at least not a real faith in Jesus. A faith that God loved you enough to die for you personally and give you eternal life is going to produce a response. so it’s kind of both right and wrong at the same time. You don’t go anywhere just because you went to Mass and gave to charity. You go to heaven because of Jesus. But if you don’t want to go to church, and you have no love for others, you probably don’t really have faith.

So much good here…

This is what I was referring to about usage of terms and definitions etc…
St James talks about the necessity of works as evidence of a saving faith. The famous “faith without works is dead” quote. But even MORE important than faith and works is Love. St Paul points this out so beautifully in 1 Cor 13.

St John in his first letter ties Love even more closely into our journey when he tells us that He who loves is born of God and knows God for God is Love. He who does not love does not know God. (1 John 4:7-8)

Jesus himself, in Mt 22:36-40 gives us perhaps THE single most important key to understanding Scripture when He says that all of the Law and prophets are based on the two great commands of Love. He follows this up later, making it a command in John 13:34-35, that we Love one another and it is by our Love that the world will know that we are His.

For me - it is the combining of “belief” and “love” that brings forth a saving faith.
Belief is the “knowledge” about Christ and his teachings. Love is that which causes us to recognize the truth of those teachings and embrace them - to be with and to be Like Christ.
From this combination comes our desire be immersed in Christ (Baptized)…Not just dipped but immersed…
I found a wonderful description concerning this difference in Strong’s Greek Lexicon HERE
What I love about it is how it differentiates between “dipping” (Bapto) and “immersion” to produce a permanent change. (baptizo).

I’m afraid that many have been bapto’d (baptized in water) but fewer have truly embraced and chosen - sought to be baptizo’d (immersed in the Spirit).

Peace
James

 

[SilverCamellia]

Until very recently I myself held with the Protestant view that faith alone is enough for salvation.

Then I became a Christian (ie believed in God, Jesus, and that Jesus died for our sins and then came back to live on the third day, etc) and I said the ‘Sinner’s Prayer’, which basically says the same thing. According to Protestantism, especially if holding the ‘Once saved, always saved’ view, I am now saved and will not go to Hell.

But to me, this did not feel enough and was a reason why I began to investigate Catholicism.

This is what the Book of James has to say about works (NKJV):

James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does.

26 If anyone among you** thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this one’s religion is useless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

James 2: What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Hope that helps .**

 

[fisherman_carl]

Scripture plainly tells us that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sins. It clearly states that his sacrifice was an expiation of our sins. So with that in mind let us explore the nature of sacrifice.

In the OT we see animal sacrifices being offered to God. Also, in other cultures we see animal sacrifices as well, (even some human sacrifices). Why did they feel the need to offer animal sacrifices? Well, I think that it has to do with paying a debt that is owed. For instance, if we were in biblical times and let say I wronged you in some way. Lets say I killed your cow. Now, that would be an offense against you. And, justice would demand that in some way I made things right with you. That is I owe you a debt. What could I do to pay my debt to you? Well, one way is that I could say give you one of my cows to make up for the offense. In this way the debt to you would be paid off, justice would be satisfied and we could be at peace with one another again.

Okay, so that was an offense against another person. Well, lets kick that up a notch. What about an offense against God? How would the ancient Jew pay his debt to God for breaking his commandments? I mean with you I could give you a cow for instance. But with God how could I make up for my offense against him? This is where the idea of animal sacrifices comes in. Because killing an animal and offering it to God is like taking this offense against God, which the penalty for is death, and offering God a substitute sacrificial offering. That is there is this sense of justice that we all have that we need to make things right before God and the way to do this is through a sacrificial offering of a life. And, of course they believed the life was in the blood and therefore by offering the blood to God meant they were offering a sacrificial life to pay for their sins in effect.

However, as we know from the NT that the blood of bulls and goats was not enough to effectively pay our debt to God because God is an infinite God. To borrow an analogy from Fr. Mitch Pacwa, if I walked into a bar and punched some guy I probably would be thrown into jail for a couple of days. But, if I walked into the White House and punched the president of the U.S. I would probably be thrown into jail for a couple of years. What’s the difference? Well, the offense is the same, punching someone; but the punishment is very different. Why? Because the punishment depends on the importance of the person who was injured or offended.

Now, God is much more important than the president of the U.S. God is an Eternal God. And, therefore a serious offense against God is an Eternal offense. And, since we are mortal creatures we could never pay an eternal offense. We could never do enough works to make up for an eternal offense.

The only one who could make up for an eternal offense is the Eternal God. That is why God became man and became a sacrifice for our sins. Jesus’ sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice by and eternal Person. Christ’s sacrifice is the only sacrifice that can be a true expiation for our eternal offenses against God. The blood of bulls and goats was not enough nor is there anything we can do to make up for our eternal offense. We could never do enough works to make up for our eternal offense since we are mortal. But, Jesus’ sacrifice is enough to pay our eternal debt and therefore give us peace with God. The way we receive this gift of forgiveness is through faith in Christ’s atoning sacrifice as expiation for our sins. This gift of forgiveness is truly a gift through faith in Christ because we could not pay the enormous debt ourselves.

And, in return for our debts being paid God requires us to be merciful to others. See the parable of the unmerciful servant who was forgiven a debt too large for him to pay (like our eternal debt); but then he went out and did not forgive his own servant who had a petty debt to him. When the king found out he threw the unmerciful servant in jail until he should pay the last penny.

Now there is a distinction between Catholicism and Protestantism at this point after we have been forgiven through the blood of Jesus. Again, I need to borrow an analogy from Fr. Mitch Pacwa. Luther taught that once God forgives us he just covers us in Christ’s righteousness kind of like a snow covered dung hill. Catholicism would say that yes we are kind of like a dung hill because of our sins but God doesn’t just cover us with snow, he plants flowers in us so that we can eventually smell like roses. That is Catholic teaching says that the effect of the Sacrifice of Christ has a transforming effect on us by grace. Whereas Luther taught that we were simply covered while underneath remaining a pile of dung. What would you rather be a snow covered dung hill or be transformed into sweet smelling roses?

 

[fisherman_carl]

But the problem with the Protestant is that is still a free gift that can’t be taken away, or lost. I think most of them acknowledge that we are called to do something with that paint, but if you just tuck it away in the garage, it’s still yours.
I guess I should’ve said this in the OP, but I’m trying to point out that we are still called to expiate our sins, either by sacrifices in this life, or in Purgatory. That’s what I’m ultimately hoping to get through to them.
But, naturally, they are saying that we need no purification because Christ has cleansed us completely.

The reason you won’t get very far with this reasoning is because if you say that we are to expiate our sins by sacrifices or by Purgatory that would violate a number of scripture passages that they would point to as saying that Christ is the expiation of our sins. And, in truth Christ is the expiation for our sins. Christ pays the eternal debt that we can not pay ourselves as I mentioned in my previous post. The Church teaches that Christ’s death is superabundant, meaning that it is enough to pay our eternal debt and any temporal consequences due to sin. The only way our eternal debt can be canceled is through Christ’s shed blood on the cross. We can’t work off an eternal debt since we are mortal. But, God may allow some temporal consequences to our sins even though Christ’s sacrifice is enough to wipe them clean. This is where you could get them to understand that God may punish us even after forgiving our eternal debt to him. He does this to discipline us and to purify us.

Where do we see this in the bible? Read Hebrews 12 where it talks about how God disciplines his sons. And, he says if you are not disciplined then you are not a son but a bastard. In other words because we are God’s children through adoption and we can call God our Father, He disciplines us or corrects us for our own good. Also, take a look at the book of kings where king David sinned by having the husband of Bathsheba killed so he could take his wife. He repents of his sin afterwards and the prophet Nathan says that the Lord forgives him, so that he would not be destroyed, but there was still a temporal punishment with the loss of his son. So, even after David was forgiven God still punished him, not eternally, but temporally with the loss of his son. (See 2 Samuel 12:1-18). And, what about Moses who sinned by striking the rock instead of obeying the Lord and he was told to go to the mountain where he would die instead of entering the promised land. Obviously, God forgave him because we see him on the mountain with Jesus during the Transfiguration. Yet, he still had a temporal punishment.

We can not earn justifying grace. The Church teaches that neither faith or works earns us justifying grace but it is a unmerited gift from God. This is why it is a gift at baptism. And, this is why if we commit mortal sin after baptism nothing we can do merits our forgiveness of a mortal sin. Rather, we have to go to repent and go to confession where we receive forgiveness of that eternal debt by grace and through the Sacrament. Going to the Sacrament itself is not a ‘work’ that merits us eternal life. It is only Christ’ sacrifice on the cross and his blood shed that is applied through the Sacrament that merits us eternal life. But, going to the sacrament and confessing our sins is necessary so that we can receive that sanctifying grace as it is the instrument that God uses to apply his blood shed on the cross to restore us to grace.

Once we are in sanctifying grace it has a transformative effect on us. Of course we have to cooperate with it. But, it is something that God is doing in us. We can take comfort in the fact that Jesus said that anyone who remains in him will bear much fruit. If we remain in Christ we will bear fruit.