Salvation Assurance: Myth or Reality for average Joe / Jane Catholic @ CAF

[BRB]

For most Protestants its a reality. Many say its only for the True Believers. Many Catholics here seem to deny the idea … and teach its only a certainty for canonized saints or the dead in Christ. Lets confine this concept to those living in the flesh.

Did Christ and Apostles teach the concept as valid, and to be a core belief of the early Christians ? Any one verse used to support the concept could be misleading. What does the totality of scripture and tradition teach Catholics to believe ?

This presents a huge barrier that non-catholics confront when they study the Church’s teachings. Perhaps catholics can help us with the big salvation picture … if indeed the OSAS concept needs to be corrected.

I’ve often considered Judas as proof that OSAS isn’t valid. However, on reconsideration of scriptures, I don’t see evidence that Judas was ever a True Believer. He was curious, and hopeful that Christ was the type messiah he was looking for. But, Christ seemed to know from the beginning that Judas lacked true faith. Thus, I don’t think Judas is helpful in proving the OSAS issue is invalid.

Apostasy by a believer is always an option … since our salvation is a gift. We can always reject the gift and return it to God … chosing to make ourselves King once again. Even Protestants will acknowledge this can happen. So, by Salvation Assurance … lets consider those Christians who never intentionally forsake their faith in Christ.

They might get lax, give up on Church or its members, and get depressed. They may question their faith/commitments at various points in their lives. But, if asked at those times, they would still confess to faith in Christ and acknowledge they were fallen and in need of help/support. They would still believe in power of prayer, but think they were experiencing the ‘dark night of the soul’. They would still be expectant … that Christ would restore them anyday.

Protestants would say this person, while under grip of sin and with uncertainties, still remains an adopted child of God. This person has not asked Christ for a divorce. They are still intent on working on their Christian marriage. So, while they are not currently ‘emotionally-mentally assured’ … their salvation is assured. So say the Protestants. This is what most Protestants mean by OSAS.

Outright Apostasy being supported by OSAS Protestant theology is not the norm … but, it may on occasion be encountered. Lets not deal with that matter here.

Lets concentrate on Catholic beliefs regarding Salvation Assurance for the faithful, who are practicing good discipleship as well as those who might be struggling with life and with unconfessed sins.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I believe Catholic justification to be scriptural:

We are purified from sin according to scriptures.

Quote:
1Jn 1:7 but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

Quote:
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

Our sins are taken away.

Quote:
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Quote:
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Our sins are cleared away.

Quote:
Psa 50:3 Our God comes, he does not keep silence, before him is a devouring fire, round about him a mighty tempest.

Quote:
Psa 102:12 But thou, O LORD, art enthroned for ever; thy name endures to all generations.

Quote:
Isa 43:25 "I, I am He who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins.

Justification is also a future process.

Quote:
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Quote:
Rom 3:20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The scriptures belows tell us of Abraham’s justifications.

Quote:
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.”
Gen 12:4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD; and he reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
Jas 2:23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.

Gen 22:1 After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
Gen 22:2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mori’ah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.”
Gen 22:3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his ***, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac; and he cut the wood for the burnt offering, and arose and went to the place of which God had told him.
Gen 22:4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place afar off.
Gen 22:5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the ***; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.”
Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together.
Gen 22:7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here am I, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood; but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
Gen 22:8 Abraham said, “God will provide himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
Gen 22:9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar, upon the wood.
Gen 22:10 Then Abraham put forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
Gen 22:11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven, and said, “Abraham, Abraham!” And he said, “Here am I.”
Gen 22:12 He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns; and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son.
Gen 22:14 So Abraham called the name of that place The LORD will provide; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD it shall be provided.”
Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called to Abraham a second time from heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, “By myself I have sworn, says the LORD, because you have done this, and have not withheld your son, your only son,
Gen 22:17 I will indeed bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies,
Gen 22:18 and by your descendants shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves, because you have obeyed my voice.”

We must become partakers of the divine nature.

Quote:
2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

Maybe it would be easier to approach the subject using the words of Protestants. Protestants are quick to ask, “are you saved”? We believe we are saved, we are being saved and we hope to be saved. In other words, we must work for our salvation.

Past

Quote:
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope. For what a man seeth, why doth he hope for?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ (by whose grace you are saved)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our own works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world:

Titus 3:5 Not by the works of justice which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration and renovation of the Holy Ghost.

Present

Quote:
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Future

Quote:
Mat 10:22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Mar 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel shall save it.

Act 15:11 But by the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, in like manner as they also.

Rom 5:9 Christ died for us. Much more therefore, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son: much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the season, that it is now the hour for us to rise from sleep. For now our salvation is nearer than when we believed.

1Co 3:15 If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 9:28 So also Christ was offered once to exhaust the sins of many. The second time he shall appear without sin to them that expect him unto salvation.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Part II of Catholic justification

Will our faith be enough or is more required?

Quote:
Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Jas 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

1Co 13:2 And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Joh 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I’ve seen Protestants deny many times that works are required but scriptures support the opposite.

Quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 19:16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
Mat 19:17 Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keepeth them; he it is that loveth me. And he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him.

Rom 2:2 For we know that the judgment of God is, according to truth, against them that do such things.
Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them who do such things and dost the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and patience and longsuffering? Knowest thou not that the benignity of God leadeth thee to penance?
Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice.
Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by Charity.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
Eph 2:9 Not of works, that no man may glory.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.
Php 2:13 For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to his good will.

Jas 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
Jas 2:15 And if a brother or sister be naked and want daily food:
Jas 2:16 And one of you say to them: Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; yet give them not those things that are necessary for the body, what shall it profit?
Jas 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
Jas 2:18 But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?

Scriptures show us there is no assurance of salvation.

Quote:
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Rom 8:16 For the Spirit himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God.
Rom 8:17 And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ: yet so, if we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified with him.

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation.

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened to them in figure: and they are written for our correction, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:12 Wherefore, he that thinketh himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall.

Gal 5:4 You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace.

2Ti 2:11 A faithful saying: for if we be dead with him, we shall live also with him.
2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him. If we deny him, he will also deny us.
2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, he continueth faithful, he cannot deny himself.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God and making him a mockery.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Scriptures tell us we will be judged according to our deeds.

Quote:
Rom 2:5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.
Rom 2:7 To them indeed who, according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But to them that are contentious and who obey not the truth but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.

2Co 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

1Pe 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne. And the books were opened: and another book was opened, which was the book of life. And the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it: and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them. And they were judged, every one according to their works.

Col 3:24 Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ.
Col 3:25 For he that doth wrong shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully. And there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[BRB]

**

Scriptures show us there is no assurance of salvation.**

Scriptures tell us we will be judged according to our deeds.

.

Based on your reading of scriptures you believe the above ? That seems to be c/w what many Catholic believe.

A question for you. Do you encounter any scriptures that suggest / claim salvation assurance for the faithful ?

Did not Christ teach us not to doubt ? And if we had doubts … we were not worthy of the kingdom.

After Pentecost … did Peter have doubts ? John, Mary, Paul, etc, etc ?

 

[Church_Militant]

Based on your reading of scriptures you believe the above ? That seems to be c/w what many Catholic believe.

A question for you. Do you encounter any scriptures that suggest / claim salvation assurance for the faithful ?

There are many, but the fact is that there are just as many that balance that by saying that branches, weeds, goats, and names will be blotted out of the book of Life and the people in question will be consigned to hell.

Assurance is one thing, but it’s a conditional assurance.

Did not Christ teach us not to doubt ? And if we had doubts … we were not worthy of the kingdom.

After Pentecost … did Peter have doubts ? John, Mary, Paul, etc, etc ?

You pick the wrong people to use as examples. consider how many different people the New Testament epistles are written to to “re-assure” believers that even in the midst of persecutions and death the commitment to following Christ was worthwhile.

BTW, speaking of Peter’s doubts, that is the same guy who doubted he was worthy to die as his Master did and so was crucified upside down. Such humility is always encouraged in the New Testament.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Based on your reading of scriptures you believe the above ? That seems to be c/w what many Catholic believe.

Yes, on both counts.

A question for you. Do you encounter any scriptures that suggest / claim salvation assurance for the faithful ?

I cannot say there are any scriptures, in my opinion, that suggest or claim there is salvation assurance for the faithful. Those that have been presented in the past, often appear to be taken out of context when you read the whole chapter.

Also, I like to point out, I believe to take things into context, you have to read it in the chapter it’s in, then you have to read it in the context of the book or letter it’s in, then you have to read it in the context of the New Testament and last, you must read it in context of the Bible as a whole. Understanding scriptures is not as easy as reading a verse or two, or a chapter or two. This is the reason Catholics believe we need the Church. The average person does not have the time or commit the time to fully understand scriptures as they were intended. This is a subject for another thread though, I apologize for wandering.

Did not Christ teach us not to doubt ? And if we had doubts … we were not worthy of the kingdom.

Christ taught us to have faith, which is the opposite of doubt. As for your second sentence above, in my opinion, having doubts does not make us unworthy unless we despair and reject the faith for our doubts. We should pray for strength of faith in instances of doubt.

After Pentecost … did Peter have doubts ? John, Mary, Paul, etc, etc ?

I believe Peter had times that he doubted himself, but I don’t believe Peter doubted Christ or God, especially after Pentecost as Christ promised him the Paraclete would teach him all things.

Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

We also know Thomas doubted that Christ had risen.

Joh 20:24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails and put my finger into the place of the nails and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Did this make Thomas unworthy? I don’t think so, as Christ was patient and took time to prove Himself to Thomas.

Joh 20:26 And after eight days, again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said: Peace be to you.
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BRB]

We also know Thomas doubted that Christ had risen.

Did this make Thomas unworthy? I don’t think so, as Christ was patient and took time to prove Himself to Thomas.

Good example for study. Thomas doubted before Pentecost. Same for Peter.

Thomas didn’t lack ability to have salvation assurance …since once he received it from Christ, he appears to have been as devoted as any of Apostles. His mission to India was as tough a challenge as any on earth.

And when Christ heard Thomas had expressed doubts that he was risen, Christ did desired to prove to Thomas that he was risen. And he gave them all some hardproof ‘salvation assurance’ …if you will. Clearly they all took this appearance as their ‘assurance’. And later at Pentecost they got their spiritual power, needed to carry on til the end.

Christ calls disciples today to his Church. Would he do any less for modern day disciples … and not provide the ‘salvation assurance’ needed to carry out the mission work ?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Good example for study. Thomas doubted before Pentecost. Same for Peter.

Thomas didn’t lack ability to have salvation assurance …since once he received it from Christ, he appears to have been as devoted as any of Apostles. His mission to India was as tough a challenge as any on earth.

And when Christ heard Thomas had expressed doubts that he was risen, Christ did desired to prove to Thomas that he was risen. And he gave them all some hardproof ‘salvation assurance’ …if you will. Clearly they all took this appearance as their ‘assurance’. And later at Pentecost they got their spiritual power, needed to carry on til the end.

Christ calls disciples today to his Church. Would he do any less for modern day disciples … and not provide the ‘salvation assurance’ needed to carry out the mission work ?

Actually, I think we could take St. Paul as an example on the assurance of salvation:

1Co 9:27 But I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.

Please see the Haydock commentary below:

1Co 9:27 I chastise, &c. Here St. Paul shews the necessity of self-denial and mortifications to subdue the flesh, and its inordinate desires. (Challoner) — Not even the labours of an apostle are exemptions from voluntary mortifications and penance.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Pastor_Jim]

Actually, I think we could take St. Paul as an example on the assurance of salvation:

Actually, in the verse you cited, Paul isn’t talking about his salvation, but his credibility to preach the Gospel.

 

[terryobrien80]

Actually, I think we could take St. Paul as an example on the assurance of salvation…

Really? Then why did he say:

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21)

“Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12)

“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Those are not the words of someone convinced of an assurance of salvation

 

[BRB]

Actually, I think we could take St. Paul as an example on the assurance of salvation:

I don’t see 1Co 9:27 as very strong on assurance.

Let me suggest John 11:23-27

"Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this ? " She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.”

then in verses 40-42
“Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Really? Then why did he say:

“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21)

“Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12)

“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Those are not the words of someone convinced of an assurance of salvation

I think you misunderstood me. I was using that as an example that St. Paul felt he had to continue his works or else he could be castaway. You actually listed the verse I was searching for when I posted that one, your post being 1 Cor. 9:27 (In fact, I did post that one in one of my previous posts as part of my argument that I believe there is not an assurance of salvation). I just noticed we have posted the same verse. We used different versions. I have 16 versions on my computer. Sorry for the confusion.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BRB]

Really? Then why did he say:

")

“Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11-12)

“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified” (1 Cor. 9:27).

Those are not the words of someone convinced of an assurance of salvation

Not exactly …

Sounds like someone warning us not to be overconfident that we have conquered sin tendencies
And then in the next verse … someone wishing to mortify the flesh, so as not to be tempted by the flesh.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually, in the verse you cited, Paul isn’t talking about his salvation, but his credibility to preach the Gospel.

If St. Paul was to fall to fleshly desires, he would probably lose his credibility and risk his salvation.

I have apologized for the confusion for my choice of wording on that particular post. I do not believe OSAS and therefore believe there is no assurance of salvation until one perseveres until the end.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[BRB]

I do not believe OSAS and therefore believe there is no assurance of salvation until one perseveres until the end.

Prodigal Son1

I take it from your screen name that you have fallen away from faith [or good works in your case] in the past.

Did Christ leave you or you him ? I think we already know the answer.

Doesn’t this Reality give you the Assurance that Christ can always be trusted … to hunt you down when you stray, provided you don’t deny and desire divorce from your Lord ?

 

[Pastor_Jim]

If St. Paul was to fall to fleshly desires, he would probably lose his credibility and risk his salvation.

If Paul fell into unrepentant sin, that would be evidence that he wasn’t saved in the first place and, thus, not subject to OSAS.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Did Christ and Apostles teach the concept as valid, and to be a core belief of the early Christians ? Any one verse used to support the concept could be misleading. What does the totality of scripture and tradition teach Catholics to believe ?

The totality of scripture shows that we can have an absolute assurance of the sufficiency of Christ’s grace to save us. What is not assured is that we will continue to exert our own free will in a manner that allows Christ’s grace to complete the act of salvation in and through each of us. The scriptures speak of salvation as the culmination of a life lived in faith; not as a one-time event that occurs at some point along the continuum of human existence. Salvation is waiting at the end of a long race that we endure only through the grace of God.

BRB:

This presents a huge barrier that non-catholics confront when they study the Church’s teachings. Perhaps catholics can help us with the big salvation picture … if indeed the OSAS concept needs to be corrected.

I will do my best to try to explain the Catholic posiiton. It is quite different at a conceptual level, but in the end you may see that it is also more biblically consistent.

BRB:

I’ve often considered Judas as proof that OSAS isn’t valid. However, on reconsideration of scriptures, I don’t see evidence that Judas was ever a True Believer. He was curious, and hopeful that Christ was the type messiah he was looking for. But, Christ seemed to know from the beginning that Judas lacked true faith. Thus, I don’t think Judas is helpful in proving the OSAS issue is invalid.

Judas died in his sins. To a Catholic, the question of whether or not Judas Iscariot was a “true believer” at some earlier point in his life is not determinative on the issue of his ultimate salvation. The question to ask is whether or not Judas ended his earthly life in a right relationship with God.

BRB:

Apostasy by a believer is always an option … since our salvation is a gift. We can always reject the gift and return it to God … chosing to make ourselves King once again. Even Protestants will acknowledge this can happen.

My understanding is that many will not acknowledge this. They would say that once they accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, there is NOTHING that they could do to lose salvation. They could openly reject, and yet still remain saved. Now, as a practical matter, there is a point at which a OSAS person will ask whether an “apparently” saved person living deep in sin was ever “really” saved.

BRB:

So, by Salvation Assurance … lets consider those Christians who never intentionally forsake their faith in Christ.

How does one “intentionally forsake their faith in Christ?” Does one do so by engaging in conduct so contrary to God’s moral law that it destroys the personal relationship? Many OSAS christians would say that such conduct is not possible. What’s your take on how one “intentionally forsakes” faith in Christ?

BRB:

They might get lax [sin?], give up on Church or its members, and get depressed. They may question their faith/commitments at various points in their lives.

Perhaps some of these actions would be sufficient to destroy that personal relationship? It’s hard to discuss in the abstract.

BRB:

But, if asked at those times, they would still confess to faith in Christ and acknowledge they were fallen and in need of help/support. They would still believe in power of prayer, but think they were experiencing the ‘dark night of the soul’. They would still be expectant … that Christ would restore them anyday.

Would this not be a turning “back” to Christ… an act that can restore that right relationship?

BRB:

Protestants would say this person, while under grip of sin and with uncertainties, still remains an adopted child of God. This person has not asked Christ for a divorce. They are still intent on working on their Christian marriage. So, while they are not currently ‘emotionally-mentally assured’ … their salvation is assured. So say the Protestants. This is what most Protestants mean by OSAS.

I would disagree. One who is in the grip of sin can, by their actions, destroy the relationship just as a husband or wife can destroy a marriage by their actions which are contrary to their marital covenant. But only God can say exactly when that line has been crossed. Some marriages can weather infidelity, while others do not. Lucky for us, God is a loving and forgiving God.

BRB:

Lets concentrate on Catholic beliefs regarding Salvation Assurance for the faithful, who are practicing good discipleship as well as those who might be struggling with life and with unconfessed sins.

There is a moral assurance of salvation for those who follow Christ, live in His love, and repent for their sins. Rejection of that grace, by conscious decision or by conduct, will always present the possibility of damnation because God does not remove the gift of free will.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[Della]

According the to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1054 Those who die in God’s grace and friendship…are assured of their eternal salvation… (cf. paragraph #1054).

That’s plain enough.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I take it from your screen name that you have fallen away from faith [or good works in your case] in the past.

Did Christ leave you or you him ? I think we already know the answer.

Doesn’t this Reality give you the Assurance that Christ can always be trusted … to hunt you down when you stray, provided you don’t deny and desire divorce from your Lord ?

I hit a point in life where I put worldly things first. 23 years later, watching EWTN, specifically Mother Angelica, I had an epiphany, said one of the most sincere prayers of my life, giving my entire being over to God. I’ve only missed a handful of daily Masses since.

I haven’t worked, a paying job (I’ve done quite a bit of volunteer work), in over a year. I did take one sales job, but found it unrewarding and quit after 10 days. They really tried hard to get me to stay as I was producing, but like I said sales no longer felt right to me. I’ve done sales for the last 15 or so years.

I spend a majority of my time studying the faith; watching dvds, listening to cds, reading scriptures, books on the faith and I watch EWTN about 80% of the time the television is on.

Recently I tried to register to learn to be an EMT, as I’m trying to find something to help people, but was told I would have to wait until Spring, as the class was full and there was a waiting list. It kind of confused me, as I thought that was the direction the Lord wanted me to take. I mentioned it to a couple friends and said something to the effect of, if it was meant to be, it would happen. Two days later, the instructors secretary called me and said they moved me ahead of the waiting list and were accepting me into the fall schedule. That’s the way things have worked for me since I’ve returned to the Church. If I have a question come to mind, it’s usually answered within a day or two. I really feel blessed and am at peace with life.

Does this mean, my salvation is assured?

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Maybe, if I endure to the end…

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

If Paul fell into unrepentant sin, that would be evidence that he wasn’t saved in the first place and, thus, not subject to OSAS.

Was Jim Baker saved to begin with? How about Jimmy Swaggert? Jim Jones? Oral Roberts?

What about all those people those above lead to the truth?

How can one be assured he is saved to begin with?

Jesus was the perfect one. The rest of us are human and subject to fall. As far as I know, no one sees their future to their end. Things happen.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins:
Heb 10:27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

Having knowledge of truth once does not mean OSAS…in my opinion. There’s much work to be done!

Read posts #2 and 3 to see how my opinion was formed.

May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Prodigal Son1