Salvation attained by man?

[mom2three]

I’ve been told that these statements from the catechism are proof that Catholicism teaches we attain our own salvation. I see that they state that we don’t merit initial grace, but how do I answer the rest of this since it appears that we still have to merit eternal life on our own?

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.”

“2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The initial grace is something that is a free gift. Well and good.

But we can be like the man given the talent who buried it in the yard, doing nothing with it, as opposed to the man given 5 who made 5 more with it.

You see, the initial grace is not something like “once saved, always saved”. It gains for us the grace to use, under our own power, either the meritorious actions which increase or keep that initial grace. . .or for us, again under our own power, to ignore and let the initial grace ‘die’ as we reject God, or even further, to do active evil instead.

We ‘cooperate’ in our own salvation; we do not merit it intrinsically.

We do more than ‘cooperate’–we actively choose our own damnation. This indeed is something that only we can ‘earn’.

 

[Linkowski]

When is one born again?

 

[thistle]

When is one born again?

You are born twice.

First time is your natural birth from your mother’s womb.

You are born again when you are baptised with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What does initial grace give you?

 

[Linkowski]

Scripture says all of the following…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Why do so many Catholics fall short of this if they are all born again at Baptism?

 

[6glargento]

Scripture says all of the following…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. {is born: or, has been born}
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. {is born: Gr. has been born}
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Why do so many Catholics fall short of this if they are all born again at Baptism?

why do so many protestants fall short if they were all born again at the alter call or the billy graham crusade?

 

[Linkowski]

why do so many protestants fall short if they were all born again at the alter call or the billy graham crusade?

You did not answer my question first off…

Secondly, those people were not born again.

Answer my question, please.

 

[Truthstalker]

The initial grace is something that is a free gift. Well and good.

But we can be like the man given the talent who buried it in the yard, doing nothing with it, as opposed to the man given 5 who made 5 more with it.

You see, the initial grace is not something like “once saved, always saved”. It gains for us the grace to use, under our own power, either the meritorious actions which increase or keep that initial grace. . .or for us, again under our own power, to ignore and let the initial grace ‘die’ as we reject God, or even further, to do active evil instead.

We ‘cooperate’ in our own salvation; we do not merit it intrinsically.

We do more than ‘cooperate’–we actively choose our own damnation. This indeed is something that only we can ‘earn’.

That “under our own power” part is a real red flag. We don’t have the power. We only have it if God gives us the grace, and then only if God has gone before us to give us the grace so that we would be able to freely choose.

Frankly, I have trouble distinguishing this from us saving ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Doing anything under our own power would be a cause to boast. I cannot boast that I chose Christ; by His grace He freed me to choose Him. And my choosing Him is not something I can take credit for; it also is an act of His grace.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

How do you know they weren’t born again?

 

[Truthstalker]

How do we know anyone “falls short”? How do we dare judge someone else, knowing we will be judged by the same standard we use on someone else?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Truthstalker, you have to remember that unless you think we are all programmed robots, we have to do some things under ‘our own power.’ (Free will). Now of course any ‘power’ we have ultimately has its source in God. (Without Him we cannot breathe, move, or have our being). But we still have, stemming from the ‘ultimate’ source, from God, the individual, unique, choice to use that power to choose good or evil. Don’t we?

 

[Truthstalker]

Truthstalker, you have to remember that unless you think we are all programmed robots, we have to do some things under ‘our own power.’ (Free will). Now of course any ‘power’ we have ultimately has its source in God. (Without Him we cannot breathe, move, or have our being). But we still have, stemming from the ‘ultimate’ source, from God, the individual, unique, choice to use that power to choose good or evil. Don’t we?

One day the ability to choose evil will be taken from us. We will not be robots then but truly free. I don’t think the sovreignty of God means we are robots, but neither does it mean autonomy. There’s an either/or in your argument when we are actually in a situation of both/and: God is sovereign AND in that state He has given us free will, yet that free will always works for His purposes in His providence.

 

[Linkowski]

How do you know they weren’t born again?

I already mentioned why…scripture says in a number of places that a true believer in Christ will keep their faith to the end. This is the great doctrine…The Perseverance of the Saints. For those that fall away, they cannot be assured of their salvation.

Again - about Robo-Christian…

Ezekiel 36:26-27 KJV 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 14:12 KJV 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me,** the works that I do shall he do also**; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Jeremiah 32:40 KJV 40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

When I was born again - the power of God changed me…I have been bought with a price…I am not my own. I am His and He is mine.

 

[Truthstalker]

And you do not see the end of any man, what his last thoughts are as he dies…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

So you mean that now that you are born again, you have not sinned? At all? And you will not sin? Ever?

And if you DO sin, it means you really weren’t born again, even if you thought you were?

 

[Seamus_Sully]

We are just like Adam and Eve.

We are saved by God.

We can disobey and earn HELL!!!

 

[Linkowski]

So you mean that now that you are born again, you have not sinned? At all? And you will not sin? Ever?

And if you DO sin, it means you really weren’t born again, even if you thought you were?

1 John 3:9 KJV 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

If you honestly are intterpreting this that way, then you are mistaken in doing so. Otherwise, scripture would be contradicted. This simply means that the person who is born of God does not practice sin, wallow in it, enjoy it, etc. There is not such person who has not been glorified/ended their sanctification and they are perfect.

1 John 2:1 KJV 1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1 John 1:8-10 KJV 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

When Jesus gave the command - sin no more - do you really think that was what he meant? Why would he give a command that we cannot uphold?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I’m not asking you to give me a rhetorical question and more cut-and-paste Bible verses. If you truly believe that you are born again and you have not and will not sin because of it, that is between you and God. But if you attempt, through cherry picking Scripture, to apply these few verses, completely out of context and association with any other Bible verses (including Paul’s working out his salvation with ‘fear and trembling, lest at the last I stumble’) and the long tradition of the Christian churches (for many if not most Protestant Churches do not view being ‘born again’ and its effects as you do, along with Catholics and Orthodox). . .then I have to respectfully disagree with your ‘interpretation’ of Scripture.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Scripture says the following…

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 15

2 Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit, he will take away: and every one that beareth fruit, he will purge it, that it may bring forth more fruit.