Salvation before the death of Jesus

[nkelly]

Hello all,

I’m trying to answer a question I’ve been asked on another
forum (yes I’m forum polygamous )

Before the Crucifixion and death of our Lord on the cross,

• What happened to the souls of those who were saved?
• Where did they go?
• Were they saved in anticipation of our Lord’s Passion?
• Were Jews only saved?

I’m only interested in the teachings of the Catholic Church please.

Thanks and God bless you,
Noel.

 

[irishmac]

Hello all,

I’m trying to answer a question I’ve been asked on another
forum (yes I’m forum polygamous )

Before the Crucifixion and death of our Lord on the cross,

• What happened to the souls of those who were saved? Following the fall of man into sinfulness, Heaven was closed to those that died, even if on lived a truly holy life. “those who were saved” would have had to wait for Christ to redeem all humanity.
• Where did they go? If someone died after living a very holy and devout life, I believe that they were held in the Bosom of the Fathers. A third realm of existance that was not Heaven, which was closed since Adam and Eve; nor Hell, reserved for those who would turn their back on God.
• Were they saved in anticipation of our Lord’s Passion?** I believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, gave them the opportunity to wait in the Bosom of the Fathers for the Salvific Work of Christ’s Death on the Cross to occur and Heaven to re-open for business.**
• Were Jews only saved? There would be no way to know. I believe that God writes the Natural law on our souls, so, if a person lived a good life without the knowledge of God, revealed to the Jews, then I believe that they ,too, would not be damned for eternity.

I’m only interested in the teachings of the Catholic Church please.I would make sure to read the Cathecism of the Catholic Church for the official teachings.

Thanks and God bless you,
Noel.

Dominus vobsicum

 

[Nita]

The term used for many years in Catholic teaching for where the good souls went before Our Lord came is “Limbo”. (What Irishmac refers to as Bosom of the Fathers.) Scripture passages to check out are 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6.

Regarding whether it was only Jews who were saved, Paul’s words in Romans might apply:

Rom 2:14-16 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bers witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on tht day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Nita

 

[LilyM]

The term used for many years in Catholic teaching for where the good souls went before Our Lord came is “Limbo”. (What Irishmac refers to as Bosom of the Fathers.) Scripture passages to check out are 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6.

Nita

You might also want to check out the story of the beggar Lazarus and the rich man (I believe it’s in Matthew 6). The righteous man Lazarus is seen in the company of Abraham (and presumably all the righteous) whereas the sinful rich man is in hell.

Although Church teaching is that Christ after his death actually ‘descended to the dead’ (as we say in the Apostle’s and Nicene Creeds) to preach redemption to the righteous and open heaven to them.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Hello Noel,

I think you have to remember that God exists outside of physical time which He created. God looks at the whole of physical time from infinitly before creation to infinitely beyond the end of time as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn.

While on earth, before His death and ressurection, Jesus discusses the ressurection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead waiting to ressurect, but alive in heaven.

We know that the only way Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can be in heaven is through the blood of Jesus. We know that Jesus is the first to ressurect. One can see that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ressurect into eternal life through the death and ressurection of Jesus to live eternally, outside of physical time, from infinitely before creation to infinitely beyond the end of physical time as God exists.

Never underestimate the Power of God.

NAB MAR 12:18
Then some **Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection **came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

 

[nkelly]

Hello Noel,

I think you have to remember that God exists outside of physical time which He created. God looks at the whole of physical time from infinitly before creation to infinitely beyond the end of time as a human looks at a three inch piece of yarn.

While on earth, before His death and ressurection, Jesus discusses the ressurection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead waiting to ressurect, but alive in heaven.

We know that the only way Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can be in heaven is through the blood of Jesus. We know that Jesus is the first to ressurect. One can see that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ressurect into eternal life through the death and ressurection of Jesus to live eternally, outside of physical time, from infinitely before creation to infinitely beyond the end of physical time as God exists.

Never underestimate the Power of God.

NAB MAR 12:18
Then some Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.

Thanks you all for the replies.

The bit I’m still not clear about is where the souls of the dead resided before the death of Jesus.

Steven, doesn’t rising from the dead mean the resurrection, which will occur at the end of the world? The passages you quote don’t appear to indicate (to me) whether the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob resided in limbo or heaven.

Isn’t it possible that they were waiting in limbo and were only allowed into Heaven when Jesus died?

Thanks again.
Noel.

 

[mardukm]

Dear nkelly

The bit I’m still not clear about is where the souls of the dead resided before the death of Jesus.

All souls, I believe, before the Flood were in what the Bible calles “Hades” which is nothing more nor less than the place of the Dead, whether righteous or unrighteous. To these, the Lord preached, according to the Scriptures.

All righteous souls after the Flood and before the death of Christ were in what Scripture calls “the bosom of Abraham.” These were allowed entry into heaven upon the death of Christ.

All UNrighteous souls after the Flood and before the death of Christ were and are separated from God, which we call “Hell.”

Further, there are a few OT saints which Scripture and Tradition tells us gained entry into heaven (i.e., before the First Coming of our Lord).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Tom]

I think you have to remember that God exists outside of physical time which He created.

I agree the Son of God has always existed, He wasn’t “created” at the incarnation. His sacrafice has always been to God.

While on earth, before His death and ressurection, Jesus discusses the ressurection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus tells us that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead waiting to ressurect, but alive in heaven.

In addition to Mark 12, and Luke 20, there is Matthew 17 (transfiruration), and from the Old Testament:
www.drbo.org:

Ecclesiasticus 48:4 Thus was Elias magnified in his wondrous works. And who can glory like to thee? 5 Who raisedst up a dead man from below, from the lot of death, by the word of the Lord God. 6 Who broughtest down kings to destruction, and brokest easily their power in pieces, and the glorious from their bed. 7 Who heardest judgment in Sina, and in Horeb the judgments of vengeance. 8 Who anointedst kings to penance, and madest prophets successors after thee. 9 Who wast taken up in a whirlwind of fire, in a chariot of fiery horses.

www.drbo.org:

Ecclesiasticus 49:16 No man was born upon earth like Henoch: for he also was taken up from the earth.

www.drbo.org:

1 Machabees 2:58 Elias, while he was full of zeal for the law, was taken up into heaven.

www.drbo.org:

Genesis 5:23 And all the days of Henoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And he walked with God, and was seen no more: because God took him.

www.drbo.org:

Fourth Book Of Kings 2:11 And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold a fiery chariot, and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

 

[Steven_Merten]

Thanks you all for the replies.

The bit I’m still not clear about is where the souls of the dead resided before the death of Jesus.

Steven, doesn’t rising from the dead mean the resurrection, which will occur at the end of the world? The passages you quote don’t appear to indicate (to me) whether the souls of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob resided in limbo or heaven.

Isn’t it possible that they were waiting in limbo and were only allowed into Heaven when Jesus died?

Thanks again.
Noel.

Hello Noel,

Read the passage again. Jesus says that when people rise from the dead they live like angels in heaven. Jesus says as to the raising of the dead, Abraham is already alive in heaven. Abraham goes to heaven through Jesus and is alive in heaven before Christ’s death. Physical time cannot limit the spiritual world.

NAB MAR 12:18
Then some **Sadducees who hold there is no resurrection **came to him with a question …\…12:24 Jesus said: “You are badly misled, because you fail to understand the Scriptures or the power of God. When people rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but live like angels in heaven. As to the raising of the dead, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God told him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob’? He is the God of the living not of the dead, You are very much mistaken.” **NAB LUK 20:37 **

Moses in the passage about the bush showed that the dead rise again when he called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. All are alive for him.