Salvation, Catholic, Protestant, or non-Christian

[Hecares]

In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, section 1260 answers your question: " 'Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery. ’ (Gaudium et Spes22,5 ;cf. Lumen Gentium16; Ad Gentes 7) Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have* desired Baptism explicitly *if they had known its necessity."

 

[rinnie]

they cant be held accountable if they have never heard the Gospel

Correct, But the fact still remains Salvation comes from Jesus Christ, he made it possible for us to be saved.

SO rather they heard of him or not, they will when they meet him on the last day, and will see that if they are deemed righteous in the eyes of GOd to go to heaven you are in.

But because no matter who we are, we are all scared by original sin, we have to be free from it by Christ dying on the cross.

 

[rinnie]

they cant be held accountable if they have never heard the Gospel

Correct!

 

[SteveVH]

I posted this as an answer on another thread. It was in response to a question on salvation and who will attain it. Am I the only one who feels this way or is it that we are so caught up in our own little corner of the puzzle that we can’t see beyond the few surrounding pieces?

I don’t know but it just may be me and my quirky way of thinking, regardless of whether a person is Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever religion you want to insert, are we all not children of God, were we all not made in His image and likeness? Doesn’t God in His infinite wisdom not have a purpose for all of us? Do we really live in such a vacuum that if you are not one of us, then there is no salvation for anyone who is not?

This seems to me to be a rather presumptuous position to take; I cannot see God creating all of these other wonderful and beautiful souls made in His image and likeness who lead, moral, just and upright lives only to doom them to eternal damnation. Just does not make sense.

Now there are those who do know the truth and of God and His existence and choose to openly and actively deny Him, then I can see where peril may enter into their lives and salvation.

I think you are right on the money here, however there is more to this than just religious affilliation. There are plenty of people who call themselves Christians, even Catholics, who will find themselves in hell. At the same time there are those who have never heard of Jesus Christ who will be in heaven, depending upon what they did with what they had.

Of course it is only through Christ that we are saved. But God is Love, and I believe that those who truly live their lives in Love, live their lives in Christ. At the same time, I believe it is more difficult for those who do not have the benefit of the sacraments; who are left un-fed and un-strengthened. This would be true even for our Protestant brothers and sisters. But I will never forget a documentary that I saw about an obscure tribe of people in the Amazon who had never seen other people. They seemed to be living an unbelievably joyous life; playing with ther children and living and working together in community. It seemed that they truly loved one another and I believe they have the law of God written on their hearts. I cannot imagine a God who would condem them because no one had yet found them to tell them of Jesus Christ. If that were the case then their salvation is dependent upon us, not on God.

 

[ydraig]

Years ago as a young schoolboy we were taught that there was baptism by water, baptism by blood (martyrdom) and baptism by desire. I always thought that the last one encompassed those of no faith and non christian, non catholic faiths to be given a choice somehow or other to follow Christ or not. The choice will be theirs and nobody else’s. But do not short change God. He Made us to know him and He would be wrong to allow only Christians to find heaven.

 

[Izdaari]

Okay. calm down there big fellow, I am not trying to play a game I am trying to show my point and the Church;s point, now I can.

Okay we know there is no Salvation outside of Jesus Christ. Now GOd can reveal himself anyway he wants. He revealed himself through the Son, do you see what I am saying.

He saved us from our SIN by the body and blood of the SON. So rather people can see that the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE, it does not matter.

We were saved from our SIN and can enter heaven only by the BOdy and blood of the SON.

Now Salvation is through the CC. That means Salvation is through Jesus Christ by his suffering on the Cross.

Do you get it now?

Of course the Indians can get in, as long as they except God, and it is by the Grace of GOd that he will find a way to reveal himself.

But no matter how God choose to reveal himself it is by his suffering on the cross as the SON that we gained Salvation. You get it now?

I agree with almost all of this. The part I don’t agree with is about the CC being more special than any other church that teaches salvation though Jesus Christ. But of course, being Protestant, I would say that.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

God brought me to His Church

and He will bring others to it as well

I was raised Catholic but went astray.

circumstances led me one wway

But God intervened and began leading me another way.

If He does this with one person He will do it w / another

He is no respector of persons.

Hey Matthew23, Welcome to the forms. I agree with you. There are many good people in this world who never heard of Christ or his teachings by no fault of their own.
I believe God will take care of those souls.
Then there are those who believe in Christ but reject his Church/His Body and it’s teachings. Those are who i pray for that the Holy Spirit will open their minds and hearts to the truth of The Catholic Church. Anyway that’s my view…

Matthew

 

[Publisher]

So God creates billions of souls (non-Christian) in his image and likeness who lead moral, just and upright lives only to destroy them? If this is true then isn’t the Devils job rather easy and hell will be full long before heaven will be?

Salvation DOES come thru Christ…any who are saved are saved because of the Grace and Mercy of God in Christ…whether one confesses the “earthly name of Jesus of Nazareth” or not is another question entirely.

Any…Hindu, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Mormon, Jehovah’s Witness who is saved…is saved by Christ’s solitary work…it is God and God alone who decides whom He forgives or not…not our respectifve ecclesial community…our pastor, priest, elder, deacon, minister, lay person or our favorite theologian…but thru the astounding grace and mercy of God in Christ…whether or not the earthly “angicanize/latinized” name of the Nazarene is known or not…salvation is still thru the soverign grace and mercy of God.

 

[Tyuiop411]

Let me ask it this way, just a few months ago there was a tribe of Indians discovered in the Brazilian rain forest. They have had no outside contact before their discovery or since. These are Gods children who He placed here on earth for His own purpose. Let’s say that this tribe lives moral, just and upright lives. Are the denied salvation? Or are the condemned to Hell?

I’m pretty sure they’re protected by their “ignorance”.

 

[CompSciGuy]

I have had no doubts about what you are saying and have fully understood your points all along, I get it, actually got it a long time ago. However my point is there are those who are not Christian, isolated either geographically or by culture/society who do not have the opportunity to be exposed or immersed into the truths of our faith. There are those who lead moral just lives and who are we to say that God has not revealed Himself to them and that they have not stood in the presence of holiness. Just because they do not see and understand it the way we do does not negate their existence and opportunity to see God.

As for their salvation, that really is a matter of God’s mercy. We can’t assume that God will punish them for not accepting a gospel they have never heard before. However we can’t presume their salvation either. I think a more important question that I’d like to ask you is, do you think that we should or should not bring the gospel to them? Those who have died without Christ are in the hands of God. You don’t have to make God’s judgment for them. For those who are alive and are within our reach, they need the gospel as much as anyone else. Give them the gospel (in charity of course!) and then leave the rest to God.

 

[ibo]

I posted this as an answer on another thread. It was in response to a question on salvation and who will attain it. Am I the only one who feels this way or is it that we are so caught up in our own little corner of the puzzle that we can’t see beyond the few surrounding pieces?

I don’t know but it just may be me and my quirky way of thinking, regardless of whether a person is Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever religion you want to insert, are we all not children of God, were we all not made in His image and likeness? Doesn’t God in His infinite wisdom not have a purpose for all of us? Do we really live in such a vacuum that if you are not one of us, then there is no salvation for anyone who is not?

This seems to me to be a rather presumptuous position to take; I cannot see God creating all of these other wonderful and beautiful souls made in His image and likeness who lead, moral, just and upright lives only to doom them to eternal damnation. Just does not make sense.

Now there are those who do know the truth and of God and His existence and choose to openly and actively deny Him, then I can see where peril may enter into their lives and salvation.

Salvation comes from the Redemption of Jesus Christ, through Baptism.
But from the early times, Christians were confronted with strange situations.

What happened to someone who was not baptized but died for Christ in any of those persecutions of the first 3 centuries? Then, the theologians interpreted this by being the Baptism of Blood. someone who gives his blood for Christ has got salvation.

And then what happened to someone who wanted to be baptized and waited for an apostle to come and before he came slowly by boat, died without baptism. Then the theologians interpreted this to be the Baptism by Faith.

After the Portuguese Discoverings, the missionaries interpreted literally the Gospel so the baptized, sometimes forcefully, millions of non-believers.

After Vatican II and the Decree on Religious Freedom, there is another notion, brilliantly exposed by the german theologian Karl Rahner. It is the idea of the Anonimous Christian. It is the person who does not know Christ and it is not his fault. This person is a faithful Hindhu, Muslim, Buddhist. Were he be able to know Christ, He would be a Faithful Christian. Rahner calls him the Anonimous Christians.

Jesus Christ saved all human beings, not only the ones who know Christ. So all of them ar Christian if they follow their conscience, their notion of right or wrong, their love for his fellow brothers.

We, Christians, are the happy ones, who get many close gifts to God: confessions, Eucharist, Baptism and who have a mission of giving God’s gifts to everybody till the end of the world.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

I agree with almost all of this. The part I don’t agree with is about the CC being more special than any other church that teaches salvation though Jesus Christ. But of course, being Protestant, I would say that.

Does this mean you think one Church or ecclesial community is as good as another?

 

[JonNC]

I agree with almost all of this. The part I don’t agree with is about the CC being more special than any other church that teaches salvation though Jesus Christ. But of course, being Protestant, I would say that.

On the issue of the “specialness” of the Catholic Church, Luther said in an open leter to Pope Leo X in 1519 this:

That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Now, many things changed, and rather rapidly after 1519, but I continue to believe that what he said here has merit, and in many ways is the reason I continue to visit and participate in this website. What he says here is true, and should be the foundation of ongoing dialogue between Rome and non-Catholics.

Jon

 

[rinnie]

I agree with almost all of this. The part I don’t agree with is about the CC being more special than any other church that teaches salvation though Jesus Christ. But of course, being Protestant, I would say that.

But now you have to say WHY do we feel that the CC is more special as you say then any other Church.

The reason is the Sacraments.

THe most Holy and Special of all is the Eucharist. You must eat my bread and blood in order to have eternal life. Who but a Priest can turn regular bread and wine into the real living Christ. That Grace is given to him by the laying of Hands in the Sacrament again of Holy Orders.

Forgiveness of sins, Can your Pastor give you absolution, Say to you, Go you are forgiven, Can he speak in the voice of Christ and give you that great gift?

We have ALL of the Sacraments. I believe that the only 2 that Protestant Churchs have is Marriage and Baptism. Correct me if I am wrong.

It does you must agree make the CC pretty special. Simply because it was started by Jesus Christ and it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit that it continues to exist and lead us to the FULLNESS of all truth.

Do you see why it has the FULLNESS of all truth Now? ITs the Sacraments, an outward sign INSTITUTED by CHRIST to GIVE GRACE. You are right, that does make the CC pretty darn Special.

 

[wmscott]

Thanks all for taking the time to answer my question, sometimes I get to thinking “outside the box” and like to get different perspectives.

 

[Matthew23]

On the issue of the “specialness” of the Catholic Church, Luther said in an open leter to Pope Leo X in 1519 this:

Now, many things changed, and rather rapidly after 1519, but I continue to believe that what he said here has merit, and in many ways is the reason I continue to visit and participate in this website. What he says here is true, and should be the foundation of ongoing dialogue between Rome and non-Catholics.

Jon

but Luther retracted this statement in later years through his conduct and writings.

He said VERY crude and disgusting things about the pope and others in the Church

It was in the 1520’s that he severed all ties to the Church and i belive it was 1521 when he was excommunicated

 

[Matthew23]

But now you have to say WHY do we feel that the CC is more special as you say then any other Church.

The reason is the Sacraments.

THe most Holy and Special of all is the Eucharist. You must eat my bread and blood in order to have eternal life. Who but a Priest can turn regular bread and wine into the real living Christ. That Grace is given to him by the laying of Hands in the Sacrament again of Holy Orders.

Forgiveness of sins, Can your Pastor give you absolution, Say to you, Go you are forgiven, Can he speak in the voice of Christ and give you that great gift?

We have ALL of the Sacraments. I believe that the only 2 that Protestant Churchs have is Marriage and Baptism. Correct me if I am wrong.

It does you must agree make the CC pretty special. Simply because it was started by Jesus Christ and it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit that it continues to exist and lead us to the FULLNESS of all truth.

Do you see why it has the FULLNESS of all truth Now? ITs the Sacraments, an outward sign INSTITUTED by CHRIST to GIVE GRACE. You are right, that does make the CC pretty darn Special.

it is actually Christ who Transubstantiates the host, workign throught the priest. And only an ordained Catholic priest can do this

 

[JonNC]

but Luther retracted this statement in later years through his conduct and writings.

He said VERY crude and disgusting things about the pope and others in the Church

It was in the 1520’s that he severed all ties to the Church and i belive it was 1521 when he was excommunicated

There are some similar quotes later, but I did reference the changes that took place after 1519. And btw, there were some crude and ugly things said about him, too.

But none of this was my point. Regardless of what he said or thought later, I commented that** I** beleive the words have merit and are true. So, it was more a post about what I think.

Jon

 

[Izdaari]

Does this mean you think one Church or ecclesial community is as good as another?

No, some are better than others, some have more truth than others, some have better praxis. But with respect to teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, all who do it well are the same. If you learn it from a Catholic, a Baptist or a Pentecostal, the important thing is that you learned it.

 

[Izdaari]

But now you have to say WHY do we feel that the CC is more special as you say then any other Church.

The reason is the Sacraments.

THe most Holy and Special of all is the Eucharist. You must eat my bread and blood in order to have eternal life. Who but a Priest can turn regular bread and wine into the real living Christ. That Grace is given to him by the laying of Hands in the Sacrament again of Holy Orders.

I do believe in the Real Presence, though I don’t necessarily believe transubstantiation is involved. Like Lutherans and Anglicans who believe in RP, I prefer to leave exactly how it works a mystery. And I don’t believe it’s a priest who does that, but Christ Himself, and that He will come wherever two or three are gathered in His name.

Forgiveness of sins, Can your Pastor give you absolution, Say to you, Go you are forgiven, Can he speak in the voice of Christ and give you that great gift?

Forgiveness of sins is essential of course, but I don’t need a priest or pastor for that. I can go to Jesus directly.