Salvation for Infants who die without baptism

  • Thread starter Thread starter Matt_CL
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
An excellent and thought - provoking article by Editor Emeritus Fr Kenneth J Baker in this month’s issue of The Homelitic and Pastoral Review concerning the age-old theological problem of the salvation of infants who die without baptism. He really lays out the problems and its history. A great discussion starter.

hprweb.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=251&Itemid=63
An interesting piece by Fr. Baker. Agree with you that it could be a great discussion starter.

As the Pope states, more or less in the terms that, it requires fresh thinking - fresh study etc… Allows one perhaps to be tested somewhat.

The Vatican document was very long and I didn’t get through it all; but understood the general gist. I typed in search words ‘foreknowledge’ and ‘prevenience’ - but got nothing. Disappointed at that.

Have you ideas of your own to express?
 
when i grew up and went to catholic school, i asked this question to the teachers. my response was “those who die without the knowledge of God, go to heaven.”

IMO, they return to the all.
 
when i grew up and went to catholic school, i asked this question to the teachers. my response was “those who die without the knowledge of God, go to heaven.”

IMO, they return to the all.
She didn’t mention Limbo then?
 
Thank you for that affirmation Soulewolf.

Limbo is a difficult subject. I would like to think that if Limbo exists then those in it go to Heaven after the second coming. Limbo thus disappears, as do the Sacraments. And if that were the case the only question would be as to what degree of glory the infants are raised to by our merciful God.

Either way to get anywhere regarding your topic, others would have to join in I think.
 
Thank you for that affirmation Soulewolf.

Limbo is a difficult subject. I would like to think that if Limbo exists then those in it go to Heaven after the second coming. Limbo thus disappears, as do the Sacraments. And if that were the case the only question would be as to what degree of glory the infants are raised to by our merciful God.

Either way to get anywhere regarding your topic, others would have to join in I think.
as far as i was aware, degrees of glory are more attributed to the morman religion. I think catholics believe in a single, whole heaven.
 
as far as i was aware, degrees of glory are more attributed to the morman religion. I think catholics believe in a single, whole heaven.
I am not aware of what the morman religion thinks about this.

Doctrines ‘Light of Glory’ and ‘Degrees of Glory’ are both Roman Catholic Doctrines. Also ‘Beatific Vision’ which is single to all. But not the other two e.g. Our Blessed Lady possesses the same ‘Beatific Vision’ as all; but her degree of glory is of the highest order.
 
I thought the question itself would be great food for thought.
The article…not so much.

He gave a nice history lesson, but did not mention anything that I did not already know.

That being said, I had gone a few rounds with the question in grade school.
Limbo was not mentioned.

What was mentioned were the following…
We have multiple forms of baptism. Baptism of water, Baptism of Desire, and Baptism of blood.
The water we see in the church, it is the common form we are all familiar with.
The blood and desire ones not so much. Mainly because the validity of these can only be truly known by God.

Given all of that, the topic was then shifted.
Why do we not pronounce every suicide as an automatic sentence to Hell?
Answers came from several students, but the one the teacher grabbed and ran with was the simple fact that we do not know the heart of the individual. We cannot know the state of their soul.

Having run that down with multiple examples to show we do not know what is going on in heart or mind at the moment of death, the teacher then brought the class back to the infant at death.

Was there a Baptism of Desire?
Perhaps this was an abortion, was there a Baptism of Blood?

These are things we cannot know, but are perfectly possible.
 
The nail in the coffin for that theory from Fr. Harrison, O.S., S.T.D.: seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html

Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, … but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently (…). (Denzinger 712 = DS 1349.)
-Bull Cantate Domine, Council of Florence
 
The nail in the coffin for that theory from Fr. Harrison, O.S., S.T.D.: seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html

Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, … but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently (…). (Denzinger 712 = DS 1349.)
-Bull Cantate Domine, Council of Florence
Good article. 😃

Here’s a good sermon too!
 
Doctrines ‘Light of Glory’ and ‘Degrees of Glory’ are both Roman Catholic Doctrines. Also ‘Beatific Vision’ which is single to all. But not the other two e.g. Our Blessed Lady possesses the same ‘Beatific Vision’ as all; but her degree of glory is of the highest order.
Degrees of glory in Heaven is an interesting topic. It is my understanding that we will enjoy the Beatific Vision in Heaven to the degree that we have been “fitted” for it in here in this life; in other words, we will all have different capacities for our enjoyment of God according to the holiness of our lives.

By way of example: a man who has led a sinful life converts on his deathbed and receives the sacraments; does He enjoy the Beatific Vision to the same degree as a Mother Teresa, or St Peter, or St Joseph? I think not, though each of them enjoy God to the fullest of their individual capacities and forever. I keep thoughts like this in mind when I am tempted to squeek thru to Heaven by doing only the barest minimum out of obligation rather than out of sincere love of God. It a great motivator.
 
Degrees of glory in Heaven is an interesting topic. It is my understanding that we will enjoy the Beatific Vision in Heaven to the degree that we have been “fitted” for it in here in this life; in other words, we will all have different capacities for our enjoyment of God according to the holiness of our lives.

By way of example: a man who has led a sinful life converts on his deathbed and receives the sacraments; does He enjoy the Beatific Vision to the same degree as a Mother Teresa, or St Peter, or St Joseph? I think not, though each of them enjoy God to the fullest of their individual capacities and forever. I keep thoughts like this in mind when I am tempted to squeek thru to Heaven by doing only the barest minimum out of obligation rather than out of sincere love of God. It a great motivator.
The doctrine of the Beatific Vision is quite distinct from degrees of glory. All receive the Beatific Vision i.e. they see God as He really is, whereas the degrees vary and to a great extent reflect in some way how one behaved oneself in this life. As you say yourself -

“to the degree that we have been “fitted” for it in here in this life; in other words, we will all have different capacities for our enjoyment of God according to the holiness of our lives.”

I think St. Teresa remarked that she would endure re-living through many difficult lives in this world to be risen up by just one more degree of glory in the next. It is indeed a interesting subject; will look up some notes I have on this subject and post further if appropriate.
 
"There are various degrees of beatitude in heaven corresponding to the various degrees of merit. This is a dogma of faith, defined by the Council of Florence (Denz., n. 693 — old, n. 588). The Bible teaches this truth in very many passages (e.g., wherever it speaks of eternal happiness as a reward), and the Fathers defend it against the heretical attacks of Jovinian. It is true that, according to Matthew 20:1-16, each labourer receives a penny; but by this comparison Christ merely teaches that, although the Gospel was preached to the Jews first, yet in the Kingdom of Heaven there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile, and that no one will receive a greater reward merely because of being a son of Judah. The various degrees of beatitude are not limited to the accidental blessings, but they are found first and foremost in the beatific vision itself. For, as we have already pointed out, the vision, too, admits of degrees. These essential degrees of beatitude are, as Francisco Suárez rightly observes (“De beat.”, d. xi, s. 3, n. 5), that threefold fruit Christ distinguishes when He says that the word of God bears fruit in some thirty, in some sixty, in some a hundredfold (Matthew 13:23). And it is by a mere accommodation of the text that St. Thomas (Supp:96, aa. 2 sqq.) and other theologians apply this text to the different degrees in the accidental beatitude merited by married persons, widows, and virgins.

The happiness of heaven is essentially unchangeable; still it admits of some accidental changes. Thus we may suppose that the blessed experience special joy when they receive greater veneration from men on earth. In particular, a certain growth in knowledge by experience is not excluded; for instance, as time goes on, new free actions of men may become known to the blessed, or personal observation and experience may throw a new light on things already known. And after the last judgment accidental beatitude will receive some increase from the union of soul and body, and from the sight of the new heaven and the earth.
  • The Catholic Encyclopedia
“Father Patinhani* a superior of the Jesuit order relates: ‘There was one superior that died and reappeared after death saying: Now I am in Heaven, Philip II, King of Spain is in Heaven as well. We both are enjoying the eternal rewards of Paradise, but they are very different for us. My happiness is much greater than his, for it is not like when we were still on Earth, for then, he was royalty and I was a commoner. We were as far apart as the earth and sky, but now it has been reversed: As lowly as I was compared to the king on earth, I now exceed him in glory in Heaven. However, we are both happy and our hearts are completely satisfied.’”

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

It is related of Blessed Stephanie of Soncino, a Dominican nun, that she was one day carried in spirit to Heaven to see the happiness of the saints. She saw their souls mingling with the choirs of angels according to each one’s degree of merit, and noticed among the Seraphim several persons she had known before their deaths. Having asked why these souls were raised to such a high degree of glory, she was told it was because of the conformity and perfect union of their will with God’s while they lived on earth. Now, if this conformity to the will of God raises souls to the highest degree of glory in heaven among the Seraphim, it must be concluded that it raises them on earth to the highest degree of grace and on it is founded the highest perfection man can attain.
  • The Secret of Peace & Happiness, Fr. Jean Baptiste Saint-Jure, S.J.
‘The majority of souls appear before the Judgment empty-handed. They did nothing good for eternity.’

Ven. Mary of Agreda
 
I think St. Teresa remarked that she would endure re-living through many difficult lives in this world to be risen up by just one more degree of glory in the next. .
An interesting thought from St Teresa, and excellent advice. Now if we could only take it to heart while we are living through the sufferings and sorrows that come to everyone’s life and remember that everything God sends us is a grace that we can use to fit us for Heaven.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top