Salvation for non-Catholics prior to Vatican ll?

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They aren’t Agnostics acknowledging an unknowable God. They worship a very specific God. A God they deny is Triune in nature. A God they deny is Jesus Christ. They are not covered by “invincible ignorance”. They know what is taught (sadly better than the average Catholic these days) and willingly reject it. They do not worship the same God as us.
 
Prior to Vatican II, even the idea of BoD was never considered a worthy theological opinion
Quite the opposite, prior to Vatican II the contrary opinion was censured by the Holy Office under Pius XII:

See here:

http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/appendixe.html

It is taught by the Council of Trent, which says that the translation to the state of grace “cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof.” The Catechism of Trent says the same.

St. Pius V, in Bull “Ex omnibus afflictionibus” also definitively condemned the proposition of Michael du Bay (Baius) that perfect charity could not precede baptism.

The great doctor of the Church, St. Alphonus Liguori explains the canon of Trent as follows:

Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-6
Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek word that means ablution or immersion in water, is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood.

We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was very probably instituted before the Passion of Christ the Lord, when Christ was baptised by John. But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind” [“flaminis”] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind [“flamen”]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, “de presbytero non baptizato” and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”
Even if we don’t give it the degree of certainy as “de fide” like St. Alphonsus (Trent does appear to make it so), saying baptism of desire was “never considered a worthy theological opinion” is absolutely incorrect.
 
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Of course they deny his triune nature–they don’t have faith. One can only profess those truths with faith. But again, as I demonstrated, the Church teaches God can be acknowledged without faith.

Do you have any sources at all you can point to where Jews or Muslims are considered to worship a false god/are idolators?

The Catechism of St. Pius X, for example, distinguishes them from those who “worship false gods”:
12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.
There is also the famous letter of St. Gregory VII to Anazir, a Muslim ruler:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The whole thing starts halfway down page 95 here:

 
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it seems unhelpful that certain Catholic sectors believe that not calling well organised mainstream, international Protestant Churches Churches but ECs is helpful in establishing unity
That may be, but it is an essential distinction. The marks of the Church are ancient, and it is counterproductive to jettison the Sacred Tradition in the cause of “unity”. Instead of being unified around what the Apostles taught, it only leaves us with a false ecumenism.

Unity results from adherence to the Truth. Giving up the Truth in order to mollify those who have only retained portions of it does not serve the greater good.
 
I read Love and Responsibility a long time ago (I didn’t see anything contrary to the faith in it and was actually surprised how Thomistic it was), but have not read the ToB series of audiences. I skimmed your link and didn’t see any specific points where particular propositions of ToB are contrary to propositions taught by the Church (again, it was quick skim). The author seems to spend a great deal of time on contraception, abortion, divorce, etc., but these are all things Wojtyla/JPII opposed. Again, I didn’t read it thoroughly, but it seems the author merely objected to the same truths being presented in a new/different way.

Are there specific propositions that were problematic?

In any event, I don’t think “Theology of Body” is some sort of set of doctrines imposed on the faithful, but merely an explanation of those points of doctrine. I don’t think it’s a problem if one finds other explanations more helpful.
 
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The non baptised regularly enter heaven without sacramental baptism.
I am curious to know how you have gone about discovering who is in heaven?
Or not if God does not lead them there.
God draws all into unity with Himself, and thus into His One Body, the Church. All of the actions of the Holy Spirit at work in non-Catholic ecclesial communities are themselves calls toward unity. God is not the author of division.
The Church teaches sacramental baptism is not always necessary for a person to enter heaven.
Why would you disagree with that?
I would not. I would disagree with your assertions about who is in heaven.
I am not jealous in their regard …

I understand not all Catholics are secure or generous of heart in this regard.
Malarky.

Church teaching is not based on the individual insecurities or generosities of individual members. Neither is it based on your supposed personal security and generosity. This really comes across as condescending.
As I am married to a Chinese Buddhist who is clearly more virtuous and loving of others than myself thats rather obvious to me.
And obvious to some readers of your posts as well!
 
Jesus said He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. There is only one way to salvation. There is only one truth. It is through Jesus and the Church He gave us. There is no eternal life and salvation found outside the Catholic Church.

There is a difference between someone who has never heard the truths of the faith and so through no fault of their own are ignorant of the truths and between someone who has heard the truth and rejects it. The one who is rejecting the truth of the Catholic church after hearing puts their soul in grave danger.
 
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And the new catechism contradicts those that came before it on specific teachings, the one that I’ve always been bothered the most by is regarding salvation for non catholics. That and the bogus claim that muslims and jews worship the same God as us. This is HERESY
You could not be more incorrect. Among the greatest gifts to the Church are the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church – Lumen Gentium – and Nostra Aetate.

It is you who are in grievous dissent against the Church’s Magisterium.

Conversation with you is terminated as I will not be party to an exchange in which you are not only in dissent but publicly insult on a Catholic forum the College of Bishops with its head, the Vicar of Christ on earth, before whom as a Catholic you owe complete assent, unconditional obedience, and deference.

Catholic Answers is an apostolate in the diocese of San Diego, faithful to the Church’s most recent ecumenical council. Faithful to the initiatives of Pope Saint Paul VI and Pope Saint John Paul II and faithful to the diocesan bishop, His Excellency, Bishop Robert McElroy.
 
I read Love and Responsibility a long time ago (I didn’t see anything contrary to the faith in it and was actually surprised how Thomistic it was),
Saint John Paul II received his doctorate from the Dominican’s university in Rome in the 1940s prior to beginning his career teaching in Poland. He is thoroughly Thomistic
In any event, I don’t think “Theology of Body” is some sort of set of doctrines imposed on the faithful, but merely an explanation of those points of doctrine.
Theology of the Body is a great gift to the Church and one of the fundamental reasons why this Saint will be a Doctor of the Church at a point in the future.
 
Saint John Paul II received his doctorate from the Dominican’s university in Rome in the 1940s prior to beginning his career teaching in Poland. He is thoroughly Thomistic
At the time I read Love and Responsibility, I had been more familiar with his later writings where his application of the personalist and phenomenological approach seemed more conspicuous to me (not saying there’s anything wrong with that). Love and Responsibility seemed more strictly Thomistic (although not completely, of course). I was mostly responding to the article criticizing ToB for not being Thomistic.
Theology of the Body is a great gift to the Church and one of the fundamental reasons why this Saint will be a Doctor of the Church at a point in the future.
You’re probably right and I know people for whom it has had a very positive impact and brought forth good fruits. My point was simply that I don’t think the Pope intended it to be rigidly proposed as the only acceptable approach to understanding the truths of human sexuality .
 
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Instead of being unified around what the Apostles taught, it only leaves us with a false ecumenism.
Unitatis Redintegratio is anything but “false ecumenism” – it is one of the most important of the documents of the ecumenical council and of the Church’s magisterium with regard to the ecumenical movement, which the College of Bishop confesses as a divine imperative.

From the beginning of this critically important conciliar decree:
The restoration of unity among all Christians is one of the principal concerns of the Second Vatican Council. Christ the Lord founded one Church and one Church only. However, many Christian communions present themselves to men as the true inheritors of Jesus Christ; all indeed profess to be followers of the Lord but differ in mind and go their different ways, as if Christ Himself were divided. Such division openly contradicts the will of Christ, scandalizes the world, and damages the holy cause of preaching the Gospel to every creature. /…/
In recent times more than ever before, He has been rousing divided Christians to remorse over their divisions and to a longing for unity. Everywhere large numbers have felt the impulse of this grace, and among our separated brethren also there increases from day to day the movement, fostered by the grace of the Holy Spirit, for the restoration of unity among all Christians. This movement toward unity is called “ecumenical.” /…/

It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church. /…/

The Sacred Council exhorts all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and to take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism.
As a result of what was, in fact, a new and generous outpouring of the Holy Spirit by the Father and the Son at the Church’s most recent ecumenical council, in addition to the renewal and reform of the liturgy, the work of ecumenism and inter-religious dialogue is paramount to the Church’s life and mission for the 21st century.
 
May I observe that it is inimical to an alleged desire for dialogue to make a valid polemical point in ifself by denying others an appellation (Church) commonly and longtime accepted and used by the English speaking world.
 
If the post was addressed to your good self, and if you had something significant to address I would have 😉.
 
Unitatis Redintegratio is anything but “false ecumenism”
Yes, of course. Sorry if I was unclear. I was referencing this comment:
it seems unhelpful that certain Catholic sectors believe that not calling well organised mainstream, international Protestant Churches Churches but ECs is helpful in establishing unity
Referring to “ecclesial communities” is not only helpful but PREVENTS false ecumenism. I was careful not to include the word “false” in the link, but I wanted there to be an accurate document in response to the comment.
Ok please provide a quote from Vat2 that distinguishes between ECs and Churches?
The assertion seemed to be that this distinction is contrary to ecumenism. I think the opposite is true.
 
May I observe that it is inimical to an alleged desire for dialogue to make a valid polemical point in ifself by denying others an appellation (Church) commonly and longtime accepted and used by the English speaking world.
No one can “deny” their choice to refer to themselves as Churches. On the contrary, there is no effort made to prevent this. The CC is focused on educating the faithful in appropriate theology and approaches to ecumenism.

Colloquialisms, though common are not usually conducive to productive theological dialogue. Any such dialogue must, by necessity, begin with a definition of terms. That being the case, persons such as myself who enjoy interaction with our separated brethren will quickly arrive at the concept of “ecclesial community”.
 
Referring to “ecclesial communities” is not only helpful but PREVENTS false ecumenism. I was careful not to include the word “false” in the link, but I wanted there to be an accurate document in response to the comment.
Even the document itself accepts that these communities are called Churches…though not “properly” so.
Use of the word “false” by lay commentators is then beyond the pale and not helpful for dialogue and a good faith, humble approach to reconciliation.

May as well call all persons in active 2nd marriages adulterers…even though some are now not necessarily barred from Communion.
Colloquialisms, though common are not usually conducive to productive theological dialogue
You may not have quite got it yet. It is not a colloquialism, it is how most speakers of English use the word. Maybe its a good think to start out using the word the way the people we are allegedly reaching out to define it?

To not do so is as helpful as continuing to assert bread is not physically present in the Eucharist. By todays definition of the word “physical” (not Aristotles) that statement should be quite acceptable to educated Catholics. Yet, as the recent closure of that topic demonstrates, many Catholics still want to fight to the death denying that…purely due to a tired outdated definition that modern english people simply do not use or understand anymore.
The CC is focused on educating the faithful in appropriate theology and approaches to ecumenism.
Redefining a commonly used word to meet ones own community’s differing theology makes as much sense as trying to stop the word “marriage” from changing. The word stopped meaning what Catholics understand by that word long before the gay lobby changed legislation.
Keeping to an archaic vocabulary while the world moves on, like medieval standards of episcopal accountability, is a fruitless exercise. It advances confusion re ecumenical understandings and unskills the laity in how to charitably and effectively deal with the outside world. Nothing to do with theology but polemics. Effective apolgetics/dialogue starts with the worlds definitions rather than ours.
Sure, thats just my opinion. But unlike many isolated Euro Catholics here I live in a truly multicultural, multi religious society which is not a culturally Christian nation.
If you have never lived outside of America or Europe then our differing views are due to chasms of difference in lived experience not theology.
 
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I on the otherhand am happy to refer to people by their commonly accepted names without the pettiness of insisting a boy should not be called Sue because it doesnt meet my standards. Better I suggest is to call him Sue and explain why that is an obstacle to being closer friends. Now that is a more charitable and honest approach that might work…trivial though that obstacle is.
 
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Even the document itself accepts that these communities are called Churches…though not “properly” so.
Indeed. This is an acknowledgment of your point - that it is a common colloquialism to refer to them as such, even though they are not.
Use of the word “false” by lay commentators is then beyond the pale and not helpful for dialogue and a good faith, humble approach to reconciliation.
False ecumenism is an impediment to reconciliation. Among other things it implies that the differences do not exist, or are not problematic.
May as well call all persons in active 2nd marriages adulterers
I think you are trying to say that the characteriztion of these communities as ecclesial rather than “churches” is insulting and derogatory?

Pretending that Catholics who are having sex outside of their marriage are not adulterers is not loving. It is not loving to hide or avoid the Truth.
it is how most speakers of English use the word.
And this reverses what the Apostles taught how?
Maybe its a good think to start out using the word the way the people we are allegedly reaching out to define it?
Sometimes, perhaps. But pretending that the facts are not the facts is ultimately self defeating.
To not do so is as helpful as continuing to assert bread is not physically present in the Eucharist.
I think you are saying that you do not believe in Transubstantiation?

Whether or no, you seem to be saying that modern language uses should govern how we communicate the Truths of the faith.
 
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