Salvation for Non-Catholics

[Vouthon]

Ok, so then its only a ‘somtimes’ situation, rather than everyone.

That is still saying people outside the church can receive salvation… just only sometimes.

I’m not saying sometimes or everybody. Only God knows who is saved and who is not saved. I cannot even say which Catholic will be saved and not saved! I don’t know, I cannot judge anyone’s salvation since this is known only to God. That is apart from the departed saints whom the Catholic Church has officially declared to be in heaven.

All I know is that it is possible for people who are bodily outside the Church to be spiritually within her through implicit baptism by desire, which therefore means that they can receive salvation.

These people are therefore members of the Catholic Church, just not formally through water baptism like myself. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church but there are three ways of being within her: water baptism, baptism by blood and baptism by explicit/implicit desire.

Are we clear?

 

[PRmerger]

You said everyone is part of the church whether they know it or not.

Let’s just clarify, Pumkin, for it seems that you are perhaps deliberately trying to be obtuse about this.

Vouthon is proclaiming, and is consistent with the Church, that outside the Church there is no salvation. But the Church is not limited to those formally listed in our parish directories.

Thus, Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience.

Now, I hope that in your humble re-reading of the above posts you will now be able to clear up any misapprehension you have had.

 

[PRmerger]

Part of being a Catholic is being saved.

Where do you get this understanding, Pumpkin?

And what do you mean by that?

No one is saved until he dies and sees the beatific vision.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Where do you get this understanding, Pumpkin?

And what do you mean by that?

No one is saved until he dies and sees the beatific vision.

Ok. Ill agree to disagree on that.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

I’m not saying sometimes or everybody. Only God knows who is saved and who is not saved. I cannot even say which Catholic will be saved and not saved! I don’t know, I cannot judge anyone’s salvation since this is known only to God. That is apart from the departed saints whom the Catholic Church has officially declared to be in heaven.

All I know is that it is possible for people who are bodily outside the Church to be spiritually within her through implicit baptism by desire, which therefore means that they can receive salvation.

These people are therefore members of the Catholic Church, just not formally through water baptism like myself. There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church but there are three ways of being within her: water baptism, baptism by blood and baptism by explicit/implicit desire.

Are we clear?

Yes.

 

[Vouthon]

Let’s just clarify, Pumkin, for it seems that you are perhaps deliberately trying to be obtuse about this.

Vouthon is proclaiming, and is consistent with the Church, that outside the Church there is no salvation. But the Church is not limited to those formally listed in our parish directories.

Thus, Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience.

Now, I hope that in your humble re-reading of the above posts you will now be able to clear up any misapprehension you have had.

My dear brother/sister AMEN! Thank you so much for the above post.

 

[MatteoRicci]

Ok. Ill agree to disagree on that.

Eh… That’s pretty much a major sticking point for the Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental Churches. Although we describe interacting with the beatific vision differently - one needs to interact with it (or its energies, but lets not get into that one right now)for salvation.

PR and Vol’s point links back to a very specific idea traceable all the way to St. Paul and his discussion about the Mystical Body of Christ.

Any person can join the Church, but only by his/her actions and the saving grace of our Creator does he or she partake in the Eternal Church, the Body of Christ of which the earthly Church is a reflection of.

Simply designating myself as a Catholic does not mean automatic admittance.

Nor does not being a Catholic mean automatic denial.

Only one being… one Person has the right to decide that.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Eh… That’s pretty much a major sticking point for the Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental Churches. Although we describe interacting with the beatific vision differently - one needs to interact with it (or its energies, but lets not get into that one right now)for salvation.

PR and Vol’s point links back to a very specific idea traceable all the way to St. Paul and his discussion about the Mystical Body of Christ.

Any person can join the Church, but only by his/her actions and the saving grace of our Creator does he or she partake in the Eternal Church, the Body of Christ of which the earthly Church is a reflection of.

Simply designating myself as a Catholic does not mean automatic admittance.

Nor does not being a Catholic mean automatic denial.

Only one being… one Person has the right to decide that.

I understand

 

[david_ruiz]

Hm, sad that you left Catholicism. My theory is that sometimes we need to get into another setting in order to hear and see what was there all along. Like you took up the Baltimore Catechism whereas you should have opened the Bible.

 

[david_ruiz]

.This is happening across the denominational board unfortunately.

then later in life you turn back to God as you matureI

IT MAY SEEM THAT WAY, BUT THAT IS NOT MY TESTIMONY . I DID NOT “MATURE” AND COME BACK TO GOD FOR NO MAN SEEKS AFTER GOD, AND THAT INSINUATES THERE IS SOMETHING GOOD IN ME, WHEN THERE WASN’T. HE FETCHED, PURSUED ME. I WAS LIKE A WILD STALLION, RUNNING AWAY WITH all MY STRENGTH, UNTIL I WAS LASOED AND GREW TIRED OF FIGHTING, and surrendered to His gentle yet powerful and persistent wooing,calling.

Then…living in a Protestant nation, Protestants are quick to tell you the reason you fell away from Catholicism is b/c Catholisim is wrong and you must be born again.

WELL,YOUR OBSERAVTION/DEDUCTION WAS RIGHT THAT IT WAS A PROTESTANT WHO BEGAN SHARING THE GOSPEL WITH ME. IT IS NOT BECAUSE WE ARE A PROTESTANT NATION OR THAT THERE ARE MORE OF THEM , FOR THERE WERE CATHOLICS ALL AROUND ME, AS WELL AS ATHEISTS , AGNOSTICS ETC… DON’T KNOW WHY CATHOLICS DID NOT TRY TO EVANGELIZE ME. This evengelizer did not say I was in my predicament cause the CC was wrong. He just knew I did not know and trust in Jesus, cause I did not proclaim Him in such a manner and my lifestyle showed I didn’t know Him. However , when I tried to justify myself with things that happened as an infant or child (baptism ,communion,rosary, knowing about Jesus) ,my own actions,beliefs convicted me I was nowhere, or rather only halfway there. You know the rest > I had to be born again, to know Jesus personally as Lord and savior, and confess it with my mouth. But ,you are right ,in essence what was lacking in my catholic experience was partly due to a few doctrines (like being born again at infant baptism,and assuming so thereafter). Lest you get too defensive, ,this false assurance happens in all churches. One can sit in a garage all day long but you won’t turn into an automobile .You can occupy a pew in a Baptist, Presbytery, Episcopal,Orthodox , Catholic church but that doesn’t make you right with God.

I had a similiar experience. However, the Eucharist kept me Catholic.

I can only add communion indeed became a “eucharist”.a glorious thanksgiving for His gracious salvation and second chances .
.

Kind regards,

Thank-you .You too…sorry about the capitals-thought they would normalize when “sent”

 

[david_ruiz]

No one is saved until he dies and sees the beatific vision.

Howdy PRMerger.I understand Salvation may be a process-justification,sanctification ,and glorification .I would say at justification one is saved ,entered life from death ,and as St.Paul says we ARE (not will be) seated in heavenly places(Eph2) .Assurance can be had before glorification , per my experience and belief.

 

[david_ruiz]

I’m not saying sometimes or everybody.

Only God knows who is saved and who is not saved. I cannot even say which Catholic will be saved and not saved! I don’t know, I cannot judge anyone’s salvation since this is known only to God. That is apart from the departed saints whom the Catholic Church has officially declared to be in heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Howdy PRMerger.I understand Salvation may be a process-justification,sanctification ,and glorification .I would say at justification one is saved ,entered life from death ,and as St.Paul says we ARE (not will be) seated in heavenly places(Eph2) .Assurance can be had before glorification , per my experience and belief.

Hiya, friend.

What you say above is true.

But the bottom line is: salvation means that we are in heaven.

BTW, I can’t help but mention again, only because it drives me crazy to read your posts, (but I still love ya!) why do you insist on putting a space BEFORE your commas? Please, please, please put a space AFTER the comma, and NOT BEFORE. It just makes it much more legible!

 

[GraceDK]

Part of being a Catholic is being saved. They cannot be saved if they are not part of the Church. Part of the church is being spiritually saved so unless they are a Christian, they are not saved. So I don’t really get how somebody could be saved and not saved at the same time.

Pumpkin, look. Being Catholic doesn’t make one saved. Just like it doesn’t make one saved to call one self “baptist”, “Christian”, “Believer”, “born again” or whatever people like to call themselves.
Membership in a Church doesn’t save anyone.
The Bible states three criteria: Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance/bearing fruit (without which the faith is dead), and baptism. The Bible lists these three things as criteria for becoming saved.

Christ asked us to focus on mission and we have our hands full.
He asked us to focus on making all peoples His disciples and baptising them.

Jesus is the Way, he is Truth. He is the Door. He is Heaven.

Now, then there is a small passage in Romans where it says that those who don’t believe because no one preached to them will be judged by their conscience in the end. This is a dangerous path though, which we should not hope in.

Christ might appear in the moment of death to someone of another faith who always sought the truth as well as he could, we do not know… so we dont say who is saved and who is not. What we know for sure is that there are strong indications. But you can be sure you wont meet any Muslim in heaven. The people who are in heaven have accepted Christ as their God and atonement Sacrifice for their sins.

Not all people who say “Lord,. Lord will enter the Kingdom but only those who do the will of my Father”. I always thought it was interesting when Jesus talks about the final judgement in Matthew. He talks about rewarding or punishing according to deeds.

We also hear about Cornelius. Whats your take on him? The Catholic Church takes into consideration all the passages in the Bible, not just a few.

 

[Vouthon]

This sounds so mystical , but my experience is more bare bone, down to earth .If the CC can determine/judge/surmise whom is in heaven, so can we. Who is the CC but human beings

Holy Mother Church does not make saints, she merely recognizes them and has the God-given authority to do so whereas we do not as individuals

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Pumpkin, look. Being Catholic doesn’t make one saved. Just like it doesn’t make one saved to call one self “baptist”, “Christian”, “Believer”, “born again” or whatever people like to call themselves.
Membership in a Church doesn’t save anyone.
The Bible states three criteria: Faith in Jesus Christ, Repentance/bearing fruit (without which the faith is dead), and baptism. The Bible lists these three things as criteria for becoming saved.

Christ asked us to focus on mission and we have our hands full.
He asked us to focus on making all peoples His disciples and baptising them.

Jesus is the Way, he is Truth. He is the Door. He is Heaven.

Now, then there is a small passage in Romans where it says that those who don’t believe because no one preached to them will be judged by their conscience in the end. This is a dangerous path though, which we should not hope in.

Christ might appear in the moment of death to someone of another faith who always sought the truth as well as he could, we do not know… so we dont say who is saved and who is not. What we know for sure is that there are strong indications. But you can be sure you wont meet any Muslim in heaven. The people who are in heaven have accepted Christ as their God and atonement Sacrifice for their sins.

Not all people who say “Lord,. Lord will enter the Kingdom but only those who do the will of my Father”. I always thought it was interesting when Jesus talks about the final judgement in Matthew. He talks about rewarding or punishing according to deeds.

We also hear about Cornelius. Whats your take on him? The Catholic Church takes into consideration all the passages in the Bible, not just a few.

I already know this. I was speaking on ‘real’ Catholics I guess is what you’d call it. Meaning ones that actually follow it.

Obviously anybody can give themselves a title.

 

[GraceDK]

I already know this. I was speaking on ‘real’ Catholics I guess is what you’d call it. Meaning ones that actually follow it.

Obviously anybody can give themselves a title.

A “real Catholic Christian” is one that repents, confesses and bears the fruit of conversion.
No one in this world is without sin. Without the Grace of God we are all lost.

There is an old use of the word Catholic to mean anyone who is baptised Catholic… like we say “Jews” and its blurred somehow between circumcision, ethnicity and actual Jewish religious identity. These terms always need clarification.

The Church teaches that one can loose salvation… we don’t believe in once saved, always saved or if you say this little prayer during an alter call and invite Jesus into your heart you are safe and good. Conversion is ongoing… Paul says: Test youself to see if you are in the truth. We never stop testing ourselves thus until the day we die.

Whats really your issue?

 

[PumpkinSeed]

A “real Catholic Christian” is one that repents, confesses and bears the fruit of conversion.
No one in this world is without sin. Without the Grace of God we are all lost.

There is an old use of the word Catholic to mean anyone who is baptised Catholic… like we say “Jews” and its blurred somehow between circumcision, ethnicity and actual Jewish religious identity. These terms always need clarification.

The Church teaches that one can loose salvation… we don’t believe in once saved, always saved or if you say this little prayer during an alter call and invite Jesus into your heart you are safe and good. Conversion is ongoing… Paul says: Test youself to see if you are in the truth. We never stop testing ourselves thus until the day we die.

Whats really your issue?

Yes, I know. & I agree with you

 

[david_ruiz]

QUOTE=GraceDK;9351916]
No one in this world is without sin. Without the Grace of God we are all lost.

Careful . Another thread here says except for Mary, all are with sin.

he Church teaches that one can loose salvation… we don’t believe in once saved, always saved

I don’t either .

or if you say this little prayer during an alter call and invite Jesus into your heart you are safe and good

.Hopefully you are not dogmatic about this, for many indeed began their journey this way AND had assurance in His steady hand bringing it to completion (salvation)

Conversion is ongoing.

So when someone repents the angels don’t rejoice in heaven, but say , 'Wait, not yet, we can’t be too hasty. Let’s wait till he enters the pearly gates ".

Paul says: Test youself to see if you are in the truth. We never stop testing ourselves thus until the day we die.

Quite true but scripture also says we can know , not guess, not hope, but know our eternal destiny because of who He is, not because of who we are…Once save always saved perhaps came about to offset it’s antithesis /opposite, and that is that you can not have assurance of salvation, and can only hope you make it. That is not the gospel either, that turned the world upside down and made Christians dare to nobly accept the devouring lions in the first few centuries of it’s existence. They knew beyond a shadow of a doubt their eternal destiny.

 

[GraceDK]

Careful . Another thread here says except for Mary, all are with sin.

**The Catholic Church teaches that Mary was saved from original sin through the effect of the Cross. Its a miracle and mystery that the effect of the cross worked back through time. You will not find it in the Bible, neither is it of primary importance. **

I don’t either …Hopefully you are not dogmatic about this, for many indeed began their journey this way AND had assurance in His steady hand bringing it to completion.

It not biblical at all to say that because you proclaim Jesus as Lord once you are automatically going to be saved. As the Lord said: Not everyone who says Lord Lord to me is going to be saved, but only those who do the will of my father. Its possible to loose your salvation. Its clearly written in the Bible that people can fall after their initial conversion and loose their reward. Its even written that even the devil knows God exists.

(salvation)So when someone repents the angels don’t rejoice in heaven, but say , 'Wait, not yet, we can’t be too hasty. Let’s wait till he enters the pearly gates ".

**I did not say that. You know what the Bible says. You simply need to apply the different passages and verses, and not only one or two that you like. Stay on the narrow path. You know Paul wrote to those who were already Christians, and yet his letters are full of warning and admonition. He even at times say: I am afraid I have struggled in vain for you. **

Quite true but scripture also says we can know , not guess, not hope, but know our eternal destiny because of who He is, not because of who we are…Once save always saved perhaps came about to offset it’s antithesis /opposite, and that is that you can not have assurance of salvation, and can only hope you make it. That is not the gospel either, that turned the world upside down and made Christians dare to nobly accept the devouring lions in the first few centuries of it’s existence. They knew beyond a shadow of a doubt their eternal destiny.

**I agree with you, we can know at this moment whether we are right with the Lord or not. However, I ask you not to test him. You can fall into sin tomorrow and eventually loose that which Jesus prepared for you. Read the Bible. There is a lot about perseverence, testing one self to see if one is in the faith, continual repentance from sin, fear of falling… Just read the epistles of Paul. He knew that he was headed for union with Christ in heaven. But its also clear he knew that he could loose it all if he did not “work on his salvation with fear and trembling”. The one who says he has no sin is a liar, says the Bible. So we all struggle. We need to repent… Its written that eg. those who practice fornication, adultery and other such things will not inherit the kingdom. Yet many, even many Christians who believe themselves saved, are living in sin at this very moment.

My problem with evangelical Christianity and one of the reasons why I could never return to it - I used to be evangelical - is the selective reading of Scripture found in Evaneglical Christianity.
While reading your post I furthermore felt you try to put me to the test. But I say : Read the Scripture. Its all in there for you to see.**