Salvation for non-Catholics

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I see that my previous thread was considered too personal of speculation concerning the salvation or damnation of a particular individual so why don’t we consider this question again from a general perspective. What about the salvation of non-Catholics, my dear people?
 
I voted that we’ll all be judged by the same standards. I think God is very lenient with his children although he makes big threats to try to get us to behave better.
 
Nobody Knows, - in the truest most exacting meaning of that word.
 
I never said anything about use knowing anything for sure. I wanted to know the opinion of people here as to the general policy of God towards non-Catholics regardeing salvation. Some people say that it’s unlikely, others say that Catholics are held to a higher standard therefore God is more lenient towards non Catholics.
 
I voted that we’ll all be judged by the same standards. I think God is very lenient with his children although he makes big threats to try to get us to behave better.
This makes no sense.

God’s forgiveness and mercy is eternal and without bounds, but if we dont believe in it or overtly reject it, then we also rject salvation.
 
I see that my previous thread was considered too personal of speculation concerning the salvation or damnation of a particular individual so why don’t we consider this question again from a general perspective. What about the salvation of non-Catholics, my dear people?
As I said on the closed thread, everyone outside of the Holy Catholic Church is on an indirect - and uncertain - path to God. Alot of it depends on why they are outside of the Church.

Instead of worrying about whether non-Christians/Catholics can be saved, I think the members of the Church should devote their energies to bringing them to Christ and the Church. And let God worry about the rest.
 
If His Holiness declares a non-Catholic a canonized Saint, then I will believe that that individual is in heaven. Unless someone is canonized, we cannot be sure they have entered into eternal life.
 
We all should not take our salvation for granted. However in my heart I feel that God intends to save us all somehow, perhaps some will need more purification in Purgatory. My priests seems to teach this. Thank you for your return to this interesting question Caesar, I’m sorry I was too specific about a certain person in the previous one, but I meant that an an example of someone who has led a life of prayer and holiness who is probably better than the average Catholic in his personal conduct. Many people like to bring up Mahata Gandhi to illustrate this point.

Of course I don’t know the details of anyone’s personal heart.
 
Although we can not say, “Yes this person will.” or, “No, this person will not.” we can give requirements; the fulfilment of the Great Commission would be impossible if we could not. You must believe and be baptized, living a holy life the best you can. Salvation is NOT found outside the Catholic Church.

The only other chance we are told of is for those who lived holy lives without having heard of the Gospel. There are few tribes, if any, who have not.
 
We all should not take our salvation for granted. However in my heart I feel that God intends to save us all somehow, perhaps some will need more purification in Purgatory. My priests seems to teach this. Thank you go your return to this interesting question Caesar, I’m sorry I was too specific about a certain person in the previous one, but I meant that an an example of someone who has led a life of prayer and holiness who is probably better than the average Catholic in his personal conduct. Many people like to bring up Mahata Gandhi to illustrate this point.

Of course I don’t know the details of anyone’s personal heart.
Ou goal should be to follow Christ: not Gandhi, not Mohammed, not Martin Luther. We must always strive to live the teachings of Christ. Many of the pagan religions have differant views of what is moral or not. Mohammed, for example, was a warlord who conquered Arabia and forced his new religion on his subjects through military force. In Buddhism, morality is based on Karma (in fact the Tibetans have a story very similar to Christ’s parable of the Prodigal Son, but in the Tibetan version the father rejects his son- this story is meant to demonstrate the law of Karma, whereas Christ’s story demonstrates God’s unending forgiveness for those who seek it).
 
Welcome back whiggamore! 🙂
I disagree. I think the Vatican has made a much more moderate and lenient statement than your interpretation of the Catechism in your post. People may have heard of Christ but be too conditioned by their upbringing or culture to accept the truth. And also Jesus gives other requirements. He says in the sheep and goat parable that there are some who believe that they prophecy and do wonders in Christ’s name but that type of acknowledgement of him is not the mark of a true Christian, but instead in how we serve the least of his children and attend the needs of the weak and powerless. And we are also instructed of our need to forgive in order to be forgiven.
 
Welcome back whiggamore! 🙂
I disagree. I think the Vatican has made a much more moderate and lenient statement that your interpretation of the Catechism in your post. People may have heard of Christ but be too conditioned by their upbringing or culture to accept the truth. And also Jesus gives other requirements. He says in the sheep and goat parable that there are some who believe that they prophecy and do wonders in Christ’s name but that type of acknowledgement of him is not the mark of a true Christian, but instead in how we serve the least of his children and attend the needs of the weak and powerless. And we are also instructed of our need to forgive in order to be forgiven.
But you leave out Christ’s first commandment: God and the love of Him. The second commandment is not greater than the first.

We should expend our energies to bringing people to Christ and his Church. Not “celebrating” their current religious status. This is not an “I’m okay, you’re okay” kind of thing, where all religions - or no religion - are equally valid, so long as one is “good.”
 
My Priest said that the greatest advance the Devil has made in the past generation is to convince most of us that there is no hell or there is a hell, but nobody goes there.

He said that hell is a very real place and the Bible seems to indicate that most are on the wide road that leads there.

I believe this is true.

I do not know about salvation for Muslims or Jews or Lutherans or Buddists or my neighbor two doors down who is an atheist. What I do know is that Jesus himself said that He is the ONLY way to the Father and he told me, as His follower to go tell everyone. That’s my job. So that’s what I will try to do, while I work out my own salvation and I’ll leave everyone else’s salvation up to Him.
 
If someone explictly rejects the Gospel, they cannot fall under the umbrella of ignorance. They know of Christ; and they rejected Him. While cannot presume the mercy and wisdom of God in this matter, we know that they have rejected Christ- and that is a telling point.

Also, I must issue a caution regarding the teachings of individuals. The beliefs, opinions and teachings of an indidual Catholic (clergy or laity) must be in line with the doctrines of the Church. We should always question them when they teach us. The Roman Catechism gives much information on what priests should be teaching.
 
But you leave out Christ’s first commandment: God and the love of Him. The second commandment is not greater than the first.

We should expend our energies to bringing people to Christ and his Church. Not “celebrating” their current religious status. This is not an “I’m okay, you’re okay” kind of thing, where all religions - or no religion - are equally valid, so long as one is “good.”
Yes you make a very important point. Perhaps that is so we can bring the Kingdom of God into manifestation here on earth though, not for the eternal salvation of the individual.
 
Yes Caesar salvation is through Christ for all people. They aren’t saved by their works are their allegance to Buddha or Krishna, but because of the blood redemption of Christ our Lord. When they die the blinders will be removed just like all of us will have our distorted views of the world removed from out eyes upon our death. We all see the truth through distorted vision to one extent or another.

Our Church teaches that all salvation is through Jesus Christ

This is a very interesting discussion but I must take a rest and a nap.
 
I really didn’t think that any of the options in the poll fully fit the Catholic teaching on this matter. As I said in the other thread the Church teaches that “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.” So we know that all of mankind has a chance at eternal salvation through Christ.

Now, I am not sure exactly how far “through no fault of their own” goes. Just because someone has heard of Jesus doesn’t mean that they have heard the true Gospel. Thus, they are ignorant of who Christ really was and what He came to do. Think about it for a second, how many people out there (say Muslims or Hindus) have heard how those supposed idoloters (Catholics) worship statues or Mary. They may have heard of the Church and of Christ, but they have not been given the full truth.

Although I never judge who is going to be saved or not, I have pondered the issue of salvation of non-Catholics quite a bit. I, frankly, fear the most for Catholics who have heard the message and then still fallen away from the Church because they couldn’t deal with all the “rules”. Yes, I believe that they do not really know the faith (how could one truly believe in the Real Presence and still walk away?) but they have been told and they did not listen. I pray for them especially.

As to the other issue that has been kind of floating through this thread and the other one: I’m completely convinced there is a hell. Millions of souls have been lost to it, I’m sure. Do not be fooled into thinking that no one goes to hell. God is merciful and desires the salvation of all mankind, but Jesus told us " For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few." Mt 7:14
 
It’s interesting how much disagreement our priests have. The teaching by the Church must have many grey areas open to individual interpretation for that to be. Is the Church delibrately not clarifying this for us? Carole’s priest said something totally different than my priest, who has been a faithful priest for many years! Maybe the Church its self is uncertain who is saved or what exactly is the final truth in the matter.

To me it makes more sense that non-Catholics are treated fairly by God, since God is God who surely underdstands individual circumstances. I don’t think someone even has to conciously seek God since some people just try to do good and don’t believe in God.
 
I don’t think someone even has to conciously seek God since some people just try to do good and don’t believe in God.
So why would they want to spend an eternity in heaven praising someone they didn’t give two hoots about their entire lives? I think God calls out to each one of us… over & over again. If a person doesn’t believe God even exists, they have made a decision to do so in my opinion.

Are they “good people.” Perhaps. But we aren’t saved by our good works… if we were, Jesus’ death on the cross to pay for our sins was pointless.
 
I grew up in the South. There are many devout Christians there. There is also an enormous amount of misinformation and ignorance about what the Catholic Church teaches and who she is. We were taught from very early on that “popery” was Anti-Christ, we spent an enormous amount of time on eschatological studies (I can still see, in my mind’s eye, the chart that chronologized the Rapture and Tribulation, with the picture of the Great White Throne on it), we were taught to pray for the conversion of Catholics. We were also taught, however, to call upon the Name of Jesus, to ask Him to save us in His Mercy, we were taught about sanctification of life (which is what Holy Mother Church would call the PROCESS of salvation anyway), we were taught about lives of charity (the Protestant insistance on justification by faith alone is NOT, as many Catholics alledge, cheap and easy grace in the minds of Protestants. Most protestants I grew up with lived lives of charity and certainly they cultivated hope. “Solo fide” had more pragmatically to do with the fact that they fervently believed that nothing could be added to what Jesus did for us on the Cross. Trent said this as well. Sometimes, I think we talk past each other), we were taught to seek Him daily and conform our lives to Him. My mother had the help of my devout and loving Baptist grandparents in raising us, and no one trusted and hoped in Jesus more than they did.

In those circumstances, when few Catholics were around and the ones who did didn’t engage in any evangelization at all, where at best we thought,“Those crazy Mary-worshipin’ Catholics” and at worst,“Great Whore of Babylon led by the Anti-Christ sitting in Satan’s seat,” where the entire culture is completely Calvinist/Anabaptist/Wesleyan/Campbellite in it’s orientation, where it is only begrudgingly admitted that there may be “some” Catholics in heaven, but that those are the “Christian ones” who got saved in a revival, but who were, sadly, too dumb to know a bad deal when they saw it or those who got “saved” in the Charismatic movement, I think that virtually by definition the ignorance is invincible. I think that has changed with the advent of EWTN (the Church owes Mother Angelica much), but I think people have been and are too suspicious (my folks can still remember Dr. Criswell saying that John Kennedy would be taking his marching orders from the Pope). I call that fairly invincible ignorance (still, only God can judge “invincibility”). There are times when I worry that my grandmother may be in hell (I despair at the bewilderment she must have felt upon coming there, this most loving and devout woman and I’ve honestly felt that I wouldn’t want to be where she isn’t), but then I honestly don’t see how she could be or how my grandfather will be (I still get the odd lecture about confessing my sins to a man when I should be confessing my sins to God, though he will admit that we’re now talking about Jesus more than Mary and that to his mind is a good thing), because all they knew of Catholicism was what they heard at funerals they attended. Those of you who grew up where Catholicism predominates may not be able to fully appreciate the cultural barriers in places where it doesn’t, esp. in rural American places that are not secularized in mindset, where people pray in restaurants, where ministers can mount the pulpit and by a single word defeat ballot initiatives to serve liqour by the drink, where high school kids have bible studies together before school, pray together, debate issues in the light of Scripture, and where you’re taught, by men that you love and reverence (when I told my childhood pastor, a truly gentle and wonderful man, that I had converted, he looked winded and sad) that “Romanism” is not only Anti-Christ, it’s also Anti-American, well, those are some high bars to jump. I was able to make the leap because I read history (recall what Cardinal Newman said). My grandfather has only read the newspaper, his Sunday school lesson, and the King James Version of the Bible. For my grandmother, you can add Reader’s Digest." In the end, we can only do for them what we do for ourselves: crave and ask for the Mercy of God in Christ Jesus.

Nonetheless, it is the clear teaching of the Church that salvation is normatively only found through Christ’s Church. God can act outside His Sacraments and Covenant, but it cannot be presumed that He will. The safest place is in the barque of Peter.
 
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