Salvation for the Dead outside any Church

[Nicea325]

Quite frankly, I doubt that “purgatory” even exists. It is by the power of God that we are saved.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;…

When we die, it is by the divine power of Christ that the soul is salvaged. Christ does this in a blink of an eye. It is Christ whom purifies the soul. There is no need for purgatory as a purifying fire or as an intermittent punishment. Although, Catholic myself, and I do believe that it is the best Church of them all, I cast my doubts on purgatory.

And if purgatory did exist, it would be hell. Those sent to purgatory have not been saved and are considered the dead. The dead are not in heaven. And, I fail to see a place or state or condition in between heaven and hell.

Again, your fallible interpretation. I am in no position or obligation to accept another human’s personal interpretation.

You are no different than the countless all claiming they have it down.

Why should I accept your interpretation as infallible? Explain why I should listen to you over the church Christ founded guided by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Vonsalza]

Quite frankly, I doubt that “purgatory” even exists. It is by the power of God that we are saved.

These two concepts are mutually exclusive???

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;…

So where is the scriptural argument here against purgatory? These verses didn’t mention baptism. So by your apparent rule of exclusion, these verses indicate we also don’t need to be baptized?

When we die, it is by the divine power of Christ that the soul is salvaged. Christ does this in a blink of an eye. It is Christ whom purifies the soul.

The colored, emboldened part is where I would deploy my counter argument. What is the basis for this in scripture?

And if purgatory did exist, it would be hell.

No, it would just be purgatory.

Those sent to purgatory have not been saved and are considered the dead.

Could you develop this a bit more please? What’s the basis for this belief?

I fail to see a place or state or condition in between heaven and hell.

The blind don’t see the color red, yet it exists nonetheless.

I recommend that you give your professed Catholicism a fair shake and spend as much time looking into the arguments for purgatory as you spend indulging tempting, but novel protestant innovations. Just in the name of intellectual fairness.

 

[notforgotten]

These two concepts are mutually exclusive???

A cleansing or purifying place, state or condition is not necessary when salvation is by the power of God. The soul is restored by the divine powers of Christ the moment we die and before entering heaven. Don’t get me wrong, God could have created “purgatory.” Only, it is not necessary and I just can’t envision God creating a cleansing or purifying that is unnecessary.

So where is the scriptural argument here against purgatory? These verses didn’t mention baptism. So by your apparent rule of exclusion, these verses indicate we also don’t need to be baptized?

We baptize because it is the will of the Lord that we do so. You are not going to lose your place in heaven for not getting baptized.

The colored, emboldened part is where I would deploy my counter argument. What is the basis for this in scripture?

Salvation is by the power of God. Jesus Christ using His divine powers can save a soul in “a blink of an eye.” Do you think less of the “powers of God?”

No, it would just be purgatory.

You can think of purgatory as you will. The soul is still without God’s love and has not been saved. They would be in hell.

Could you develop this a bit more please? What’s the basis for this belief?

Those in purgatory have not been forgiven of all their sins. And there souls have not been salvaged. They would still be in the state or condition of the dead.

 

[notforgotten]

Again, your fallible interpretation. I am in no position or obligation to accept another human’s personal interpretation.

You are no different than the countless all claiming they have it down.

Why should I accept your interpretation as infallible? Explain why I should listen to you over the church Christ founded guided by the Holy Spirit?

I have been guided by the Holy Spirit as well. Let’s face it, atonement for sins has always been around since man started offering up animal sacrifices to God. Today, the Church offers up good works to God for the forgiveness of sins for those in purgatory. We even put more money in the basket at mass as an offering for our sins. Atonement is still being offered to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. And atonement can be made for the sins of the unfaithful dead. It’s not complicated. The Lord has not locked the gates of hell or heaven on anyone. To think that He has is to think less of His love.

 

[Kaliaa]

You have some misconceptions about Purgatory.

1. It is NOT about salvation. Whether a soul is going to Heaven or Hell is determined BEFORE it goes to Purgatory. The person in Purgatory is Heaven bound.
2. It is also NOT about getting sins forgiven. That also, has already been done before Purgatory.

And atonement can be made for the sins of the unfaithful dead. It’s not complicated.

Assuming your definition of unfaithful dead is those who are in hell, then you are correct. Atonement for the “unfaithful dead” isn’t complicated. It doesn’t exist.

 

[Vonsalza]

A cleansing or purifying place, state or condition is not necessary when salvation is by the power of God.

When that God advocates penance for His children and his children die without having fully performed this penance, yes. Yes it is necessary.

Salvation is by the power of God. Jesus Christ using His divine powers can save a soul in “a blink of an eye.” Do you think less of the “powers of God?”

So no scriptural reference, then? As it’s not in the catechism either, there’s no written basis for your belief.

You can think of purgatory as you will. The soul is still without God’s love and has not been saved. They would be in hell.

Who said they’re without God’s love? Are you saying God doesn’t love you when you’re performing penance???

Those in purgatory have not been forgiven of all their sins. And there souls have not been salvaged. They would still be in the state or condition of the dead.

Ah, then the problem is you’ve not been properly catechized.

Yes, they’ve been forgiven of their sin. But they still owe the restitution of the damage that sin has caused.

In a false, largely evangelical understanding of forgiveness, a kid who breaks a window and is then forgiven walks off scott-free - window still broken.
In the correct understanding of forgiveness, the kid won’t be punished for breaking the window. But they’re going to replace that window as best they can. Purgatory is “replacing the window”, so to speak.

I gently recommend that you enroll yourself into your parish’s RCIA program as just an observer, if you are indeed Catholic. You may need a refresher of the basics. We all do, from time to time.

 

[notforgotten]

Assuming your definition of unfaithful dead is those who are in hell, then you are correct. Atonement for the “unfaithful dead” isn’t complicated. It doesn’t exist.

It is sad to what the Catholic Church has done to you. They have corrupted your mind and made you think less of the love of God.

 

[notforgotten]

When that God advocates penance for His children and his children die without having fully performed this penance, yes. Yes it is necessary.

Isn’t it strange that Jesus never bothered mentioning something as important as “purgatory?”

So no scriptural reference, then? As it’s not in the catechism either, there’s no written basis for your belief.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;…

Just how long do you think it would take God to salvage a soul in the afterlife with His powers? Personally, I think it would take less than “a blink of an eye.” Truly, their is no need of a cleansing, purifying fire. And, I do not believe that Jesus would fly His flag of salvation, half mask. You are either saved or you are not.

Who said they’re without God’s love? Are you saying God doesn’t love you when you’re performing penance???

They are without God’s loving grace and salvation. They are being punished and have not been completely forgiven, regardless of what the Church says. God loves all people, including the unfaithful dead in the afterlife, so much that He would allow us to offer up to His Son, good works for the forgiveness of their sins and the salvation of their souls. Don’t be one attempting to block the salvation of souls. As Jesus once said to St. Peter, “get behind me Satan.”

Ah, then the problem is you’ve not been properly catechized.

If you mean that I have not been properly brain-washed, then you would be correct.

Yes, they’ve been forgiven of their sin. But they still owe the restitution of the damage that sin has caused.

In a false, largely evangelical understanding of forgiveness, a kid who breaks a window and is then forgiven walks off scott-free - window still broken.
In the correct understanding of forgiveness, the kid won’t be punished for breaking the window. But they’re going to replace that window as best they can. Purgatory is “replacing the window”, so to speak

And what of all the sins one has committed in one’s lifetime? Has the blood of Christ not covered them? Or, is there still restitution to be paid? Has Christ’s blood not covered restitution as well? Are we all to be punished in purgatory? For surely, we all have restitution to be paid. Why must we lessen the power of the blood?

I gently recommend that you enroll yourself into your parish’s RCIA program as just an observer, if you are indeed Catholic. You may need a refresher of the basics. We all do, from time to time.

Or perhaps, believers should not blindly follow the Church, Jesus didn’t.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

The thing is, Catholics who follow the Church do not do so ‘blindly’.

When you accept the laws of gravity, do you do so ‘blindly’? Gravity exists. Ignoring it because "I want to think for myself, I don’t have to accept something as true if I don’t want to’ just won’t work and if you try walking off a cliff thinking, "Gravity won’t affect me. . .’ well, sayonara Charlie.

Truth is truth.

Now, following some random Internet guy who claims divine inspiration and that this inspiration directly contradicts what this Catholic (and most others) regard as revealed Truth by the Holy Spirit --that won’t work either.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t work against Himself.

He doesn’t teach something as a revealed truth to billions of people for some 2000 years and then, “oh Wait, NOW y’all have to believe I have revealed myself to random Internet guy and everything I said before wasn’t really true, you immediately must repudiate the ‘old teaching’ and accept this new truth because otherwise you are blind, stupid, unloving and I, random Internet guy, say so, so it must BE so”. . .

 

[Kaliaa]

The line of logic proposed here also solves any issues for all those living in this culture of death who figure they can do whatever they want here because a loving God wouldn’t allow anyone to reject him and go to Hell. They will be “rescued” after death as one of the “unfaithful” dead. So they shouldn’t have a care in this world… or in the one that comes after.

Brainwashed me? ROFL !!!

 

[Vonsalza]

Isn’t it strange that Jesus never bothered mentioning something as important as “purgatory?”

Jesus didn’t mention a lot of things. The argument from silence can be used to argue in any direction against any thing.

II Maccabees 12:39-46 provides a solid basis for it. Matthew 5:25-26 is another, as is I Corinthians 3:11-15.

It’s also worthy to note that purgatory is a temporary place. As such, it doesn’t merit any mention when you’re talking about eternities.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;…

Absolutely none of those provide for instantaneous glorification, as you may likely agree. My objection thus stands.

Just how long do you think it would take God to salvage a soul in the afterlife with His powers?

I agree God is all-powerful. But that’s not the question. The question is “What system has God put in place by which the sinner may join Him in heaven?”

Truly, their is no need of a cleansing, purifying fire.

Paul disagrees.

I Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

They are without God’s loving grace and salvation. They are being punished and have not been completely forgiven, regardless of what the Church says.

Two problems here:

1. “Regardless what the Church says” is problematic because the Church is Christ’s sole mode of revelation in the present. It is his living seat of truth. Christ did not write a bible, he gave us an authoritative Church which then compiled that bible when it was already 350 years old because it had the authority to do so.
2. You assume that forgiveness means that you have no obligation of restoration. This is false. Forgiveness means that when you get caught embezzling $100,000, you don’t have to go to prison.
   -But you still have to pay it back. Or do what you can to make amends for it.

Your system seems to suggest that if a thief stole a valuable ring from an old lady, he somehow doesn’t have to give it back because of Christ’s forgiveness.

Don’t be one attempting to block the salvation of souls. As Jesus once said to St. Peter, “get behind me Satan.”

I wouldn’t dream of blocking the salvation of souls. But Jesus also said to Peter, “You are Simon “the Rock” (Peter), and on this “rock” I will build my Church”.

If you mean that I have not been properly brain-washed, then you would be correct.

God speaks through His Church. That’s why it exists. If your views don’t “jive” with it, then you’re not hearing God in your mental loud-speaker, you’re hearing yourself or the devil.

And what of all the sins one has committed in one’s lifetime? Has the blood of Christ not covered them? Or, is there still restitution to be paid? Has Christ’s blood not covered restitution as well? Are we all to be punished in purgatory? For surely, we all have restitution to be paid. Why must we lessen the power of the blood?

Christ’s blood was absolutely sufficient to cover the punishment of all sin. More than enough. This isn’t what we’re talking about.

Going back to the example of the kid breaking the window. By Christ’s blood, he won’t get punished for the misdeed. But the kid must do what he can to fix the window. That’s not a punishment.

Or perhaps, believers should not blindly follow the Church, Jesus didn’t.

Herm…

Christ established the Church, so I’m not sure what you mean there. And if you’re implying that Christ rebelled against the Pharisees of the Temple, then:
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Yes, he didn’t believe that they were practicing what they preached, but God-Incarnate Himself demanded submission of the intellect to the Temple, as we clearly read here.

“Personal revelation/interpretation” has always been the cradle of heresy and conflict, even then.

 

[Nicea325]

Jesus didn’t mention a lot of things. The argument from silence can be used to argue in any direction against any thing.

II Maccabees 12:39-46 provides a solid basis for it. Matthew 5:25-26 is another, as is I Corinthians 3:11-15.

It’s also worthy to note that purgatory is a temporary place. As such, it doesn’t merit any mention when you’re talking about eternities.

Absolutely none of those provide for instantaneous glorification, as you may likely agree. My objection thus stands.

I agree God is all-powerful. But that’s not the question. The question is “What system has God put in place by which the sinner may join Him in heaven?”

Paul disagrees.

I Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Two problems here:

1. “Regardless what the Church says” is problematic because the Church is Christ’s sole mode of revelation in the present. It is his living seat of truth. Christ did not write a bible, he gave us an authoritative Church which then compiled that bible when it was already 350 years old because it had the authority to do so.
2. You assume that forgiveness means that you have no obligation of restoration. This is false. Forgiveness means that when you get caught embezzling $100,000, you don’t have to go to prison.
   -But you still have to pay it back. Or do what you can to make amends for it.

Your system seems to suggest that if a thief stole a valuable ring from an old lady, he somehow doesn’t have to give it back because of Christ’s forgiveness.

I wouldn’t dream of blocking the salvation of souls. But Jesus also said to Peter, “You are Simon “the Rock” (Peter), and on this “rock” I will build my Church”.

God speaks through His Church. That’s why it exists. If your views don’t “jive” with it, then you’re not hearing God in your mental loud-speaker, you’re hearing yourself or the devil.

Christ’s blood was absolutely sufficient to cover the punishment of all sin. More than enough. This isn’t what we’re talking about.

Going back to the example of the kid breaking the window. By Christ’s blood, he won’t get punished for the misdeed. But the kid must do what he can to fix the window. That’s not a punishment.

Herm…

Christ established the Church, so I’m not sure what you mean there. And if you’re implying that Christ rebelled against the Pharisees of the Temple, then:
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Yes, he didn’t believe that they were practicing what they preached, but God-Incarnate Himself demanded submission of the intellect to the Temple, as we clearly read here.

“Personal revelation/interpretation” has always been the cradle of heresy and conflict, even then.

Nicely said!

 

[notforgotten]

The thing is, Catholics who follow the Church do not do so ‘blindly’.

When you accept the laws of gravity, do you do so ‘blindly’? Gravity exists. Ignoring it because "I want to think for myself, I don’t have to accept something as true if I don’t want to’ just won’t work and if you try walking off a cliff thinking, "Gravity won’t affect me. . .’ well, sayonara Charlie.

Truth is truth.

Now, following some random Internet guy who claims divine inspiration and that this inspiration directly contradicts what this Catholic (and most others) regard as revealed Truth by the Holy Spirit --that won’t work either.

The Holy Spirit doesn’t work against Himself.

He doesn’t teach something as a revealed truth to billions of people for some 2000 years and then, “oh Wait, NOW y’all have to believe I have revealed myself to random Internet guy and everything I said before wasn’t really true, you immediately must repudiate the ‘old teaching’ and accept this new truth because otherwise you are blind, stupid, unloving and I, random Internet guy, say so, so it must BE so”. . .

You are about punishment. I, not unlike Christ, am about setting the captives free. My God truly is mighty to save.

Zephaniah 3:17. The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing.”

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You are about punishment. I, not unlike Christ, am about setting the captives free. My God truly is mighty to save.

Zephaniah 3:17. The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing.”

Any time you want to address what I actually post instead of erecting some strawman and playing ‘Mighty Hero’, let me know.

 

[Nicea325]

You are about punishment. I, not unlike Christ, am about setting the captives free. My God truly is mighty to save.

Zephaniah 3:17. The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing.”

No offense, but your spiritual pride does not allow you to hear and listen to others. Again, your interpretation is not infallible.

 

[MichaelP3]

Jesus didn’t mention a lot of things. The argument from silence can be used to argue in any direction against any thing.

II Maccabees 12:39-46 provides a solid basis for it. Matthew 5:25-26 is another, as is I Corinthians 3:11-15.

A solid basis is taking this a bit far. Personally I have no rejection to these books as they don’t change much.

The part in that vers. Those people already committed a mortal sin. They are in hell according to this (Catholic understanding) understanding. So it’s not clear in any way. Just to note.

Regards

 

[Vonsalza]

A solid basis is taking this a bit far. Personally I have no rejection to these books as they don’t change much.

It is a solid basis, at least a better one than that for instant glorification; which is probably why there’s not a whole lot of evidence for the view in the first 1500 years of Christianity.
Verse 46: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”

I agree on the last. Purgatory just doesn’t change much.

The part in that vers. Those people already committed a mortal sin. They are in hell according to this (Catholic understanding) understanding.

Whoa. The “Catholic Understanding” is that we can’t know if any particular person is in hell. Period. Full stop.

So it’s not clear in any way. Just to note.

As an honest question: Have you considered that many Protestant beliefs implicitly require that Christians, with the Holy Spirit, apparently couldn’t “get it right” for the first 1.5 millennia from Christ’s founding of the Church? Or that Christ was sorta wrong in that hell really did prevail against his Church; at least to sufficient degree as to necessitate restoration in some fashion?

I find that particular “god” to be difficult to worship.

 

[MichaelP3]

It is a solid basis, at least a better one than that for instant glorification; which is probably why there’s not a whole lot of evidence for the view in the first 1500 years of Christianity.
Verse 46: “It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.”

I agree on the last. Purgatory just doesn’t change much.

This is understandable if you just quote the one verse. If it wasn’t for the definition of mortal sins you could have been right.

On the purgatory part, you know perfectly well that is not what I meant

Whoa. The “Catholic Understanding” is that we can’t know if any particular person is in hell. Period. Full stop.

Fair enough as with any other mentionable Christian denomination. But that would lead me to ask what is the purpose of defining a mortal sin and saying it needs a confession? Is it just for "in case ", like an insurance policy?

Like I said, I have no objection to the “extra” books. Maybe this will surprise some people but they are actually in my personal Bible. The problem probably comes in as to “who was right and who was wrong” but on a belief side they would not and does not influence it.

As an honest question: Have you considered that many Protestant beliefs implicitly require that Christians, with the Holy Spirit, apparently couldn’t “get it right” for the first 1.5 millennia from Christ’s founding of the Church? Or that Christ was sorta wrong in that hell really did prevail against his Church; at least to sufficient degree as to necessitate restoration in some fashion?

I find that particular “god” to be difficult to worship.

As an honest reply I would have to ask? You saying you have been Protestant for quite some time before, then you should be aware that you are inferring that. That is not a Protestant belief. Do Protestants think hell prevailed… nope. Do they think the Catholic Church didn’t get it right… nope. The last one depends what you mean by right. Promoting Christianity, by all means. To elaborate on that, well that will take many more threads

Side note: It is somewhat concerning you put the “Protestant” God in quotations and fail to capitalise it. .

 

[Vonsalza]

This is understandable if you just quote the one verse. If it wasn’t for the definition of mortal sins you could have been right.

If you had the divine ability to know if the sinner was contrite or not, you might have stood a chance at being right as well.
Presumably, you do not have this ability.

Fair enough as with any other mentionable Christian denomination. But that would lead me to ask what is the purpose of defining a mortal sin and saying it needs a confession? Is it just for "in case ", like an insurance policy?

For sure, the sinner is in peril. But the repentant sinner that hasn’t yet walked through the confessional still has hope.

If they’re not repentant, you’re right. They’re damned. But none other than God knows the heart of a man. The first thing Google spat back at me that wasn’t a CAF.

As an honest reply I would have to ask? …That is not a Protestant belief.

Prima facie, of course it’s not. But when you trace the continuity of “The Truth Faith” from that particular congregation all the way back to Christ, it usually involves this incredibly far-fetched game of historical Whack-A-Mole that bears no historicity.

Do they think the Catholic Church didn’t get it right… nope.

The pastor of my own “home church” would like a word with you on this His view is not unique among co-affiliates of the SBC.

The last one depends what you mean by right. Promoting Christianity, by all means. To elaborate on that, well that will take many more threads

Indeed. Indeed. :yup:

Side note: It is somewhat concerning you put the “Protestant” God in quotations and fail to capitalise it. .

A problem inherent to using the wide-reaching term “Protestant”.
For many, the attributes of the God of the bible are individually determined rather than ecclesially determined. That “god”, to me, requires a small “g” as the lens of individualism can reveal its attributes to be literally anything.

 

[notforgotten]

The line of logic proposed here also solves any issues for all those living in this culture of death who figure they can do whatever they want here because a loving God wouldn’t allow anyone to reject him and go to Hell. They will be “rescued” after death as one of the “unfaithful” dead. So they shouldn’t have a care in this world… or in the one that comes after.

Brainwashed me? ROFL !!!

This is nonsense. The number of people offering up atonement for the unfaithful dead in the world would be extremely small. If you go to hell, you are likely to stay there. I would suggest that people care about not going to hell and being right by God.