Salvation for the Dead outside any Church

[notforgotten]

Jesus didn’t mention a lot of things. The argument from silence can be used to argue in any direction against any thing.

II Maccabees 12:39-46 provides a solid basis for it. Matthew 5:25-26 is another, as is I Corinthians 3:11-15.

It’s also worthy to note that purgatory is a temporary place. As such, it doesn’t merit any mention when you’re talking about eternities.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46 provides a solid basis for atonement being made for people in hell. Where do you think Adam and Eve where? They were in hell, not purgatory.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” 484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” 485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” 486
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” 487

Judas’s men were in hell and not purgatory.

Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus’s love is not limited to the faithful.

Absolutely none of those provide for instantaneous glorification, as you may likely agree. My objection thus stands.

Salvation is done by the divine powers of Christ the moment you die and is not of our own doing. It is indeed an instant glorification from our Creator, Jesus.

“Personal revelation/interpretation” has always been the cradle of heresy and conflict, even then.

The entire Bible came through personal revelations. Although, I admit that interpretation is not easy. And the Bible is not always easy to understand. The Catholic Church is human and as such has flawed. The do not teach the full love of God, and probably millions of souls a year are not being saved on account of it.

Sorry, for not responding to all your points. I have limited time and am playing catch up.

 

[Wesrock]

2 Maccabees 12:38-46 provides a solid basis for atonement being made for people in hell. Where do you think Adam and Eve where? They were in hell, not purgatory.

Hell has a rather broad usage, though it is most often used nowadays to refer to eternal damnation. The righteous fathers (and mothers) were, before Christ, not in Purgatory or Heaven, and so in that sense could ve referred to as hell, but they were not in a state of eternal damnation.

 

[notforgotten]

Hell has a rather broad usage, though it is most often used nowadays to refer to eternal damnation. The righteous fathers (and mothers) were, before Christ, not in Purgatory or Heaven, and so in that sense could ve referred to as hell, but they were not in a state of eternal damnation.

Jesus said that Adam was in hell. Hell has not changed. Do you not believe the words of our Lord? Judas’s dead men in Maccabees would have been in hell as well, not “purgatory”. Unfortunately, my focus on this thread has been diverged to purgatory. When this thread is about making atonement for the unfaithful dead. Atonement is made for the forgiveness of sins. It makes no difference whether the person was faithful or not.

 

[notforgotten]

About one-forth of Catholics are doctrinally conservative. Many priests and members tend to accept liberal, pluralist beliefs contrary to church teachings.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Jesus said that Adam was in hell…

Source?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

2

. . . The entire Bible came through personal revelations. Although, I admit that interpretation is not easy. And the Bible is not always easy to understand. The Catholic Church is human and as such has flawed. The do not teach the full love of God, and probably millions of souls a year are not being saved on account of it.

Sorry, for not responding to all your points. I have limited time and am playing catch up.

Catholic Church ] you claim is human and as such is flawed. . .

But you aren’t?

The Catholic Church --given to us by Christ Himself–you claim is flawed and doesn’t teach the full love of God and is responsible for ‘millions of souls a year not being saved’. . .

But you of all beings at all times DO teach God’s 'full teaching?"

The Catholic Church needs to correct itself on the say so of little old you?

I dinna think sae, laddie.

 

[notforgotten]

Source?

Straight out of the C.C.C.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” 484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” 485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” 486
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” 487

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Straight out of the C.C.C.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that “the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” 484 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed “him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.” 485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth.” 486
Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. The earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . “I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead.” 487

Oh wait.

You forgot the part which went immediately before this. The part that said that Christ did not descend to the hell of the unforgiven but rather to Abraham’s bosom, the hell of the righteous who were awaiting the Beatific Vision which would be assured to them once Christ had died and risen.

Allow me to give you the proper context to prove that Adam was not 'in the hell of the condemned ‘unfaithful’.

Here:

631 Jesus "descended into the lower parts of the earth. He who descended is he who also ascended far above all the heavens."476 The Apostles’ Creed confesses in the same article Christ’s descent into hell and his Resurrection from the dead on the third day, because in his Passover it was precisely out of the depths of death that he made life spring forth:

Christ, that Morning Star, who came back from the dead, and shed his peaceful light on all mankind, your Son who lives and reigns for ever and ever. Amen.477

Paragraph 1. Christ Descended into Hell

632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was “raised from the dead” presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.478 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ’s descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Savior, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.479

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.480 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”:481 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."482 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.483
634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."484 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfillment. This is the last phase of Jesus’ messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ’s redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."485 Jesus, “the Author of life”, by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."486 Henceforth the risen Christ holds “the keys of Death and Hades”, so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."487

 

[notforgotten]

notforgotten;14802661:

2

. . . The entire Bible came through personal revelations. Although, I admit that interpretation is not easy. And the Bible is not always easy to understand. The Catholic Church is human and as such has flawed. The do not teach the full love of God, and probably millions of souls a year are not being saved on account of it.

Sorry, for not responding to all your points. I have limited time and am playing catch up.

Catholic Church

] you claim is human and as such is flawed. . .

But you aren’t?

The Catholic Church --given to us by Christ Himself–you claim is flawed and doesn’t teach the full love of God and is responsible for ‘millions of souls a year not being saved’. . .

But you of all beings at all times DO teach God’s 'full teaching?"

The Catholic Church needs to correct itself on the say so of little old you?

I dinna think sae, laddie.I never said that I was without my flaws. Although, I am not in error on this subject. Atonement is made for the forgiveness of sins. This, the Catholic Church teaches. And it’s easily understood throughout the Bible.

The error that the Church has made, is not teaching that atonement can be made for the sins of the unfaithful dead. Atonement for sins can be made for anyone. Our family and friends who did not believe and are in hell can still be forgiven of their sins. This is what atonement is all about. It is not limited to the faithful dead as the Church has interpreted scripture and teaches. The Church’s failure to teach the full glory of God costs Christ the salvation of probably millions of souls every year.

Christ Himself has taught me this and His authority is above the Church. I know that I am right and the Church is wrong. You, on the other hand, have no idea. You really should stop belittling me. Even the smallest of God’s children should have a voice in this world and be able to speak their minds.

 

[notforgotten]

Oh wait.

You forgot the part which went immediately before this. The part that said that Christ did not descend to the hell of the unforgiven but rather to Abraham’s bosom, the hell of the righteous who were awaiting the Beatific Vision which would be assured to them once Christ had died and risen.

Allow me to give you the proper context to prove that Adam was not 'in the hell of the condemned ‘unfaithful’.

Here:

Christ’s sacrificial atonement is only good for the faithful. That’s why we must offer up good works as atonement for the sins of the unfaithful. Christ has opened the gates of hell.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The captives are there needing our help to free them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Tantum ergo;14802892:

I never said that I was without my flaws. Although, I am not in error on this subject. Atonement is made for the forgiveness of sins.

This, the Catholic Church teaches. And it’s easily understood throughout the Bible.

The error that the Church has made, is not teaching that atonement can be made for the sins of the unfaithful dead. Atonement for sins can be made for anyone. Our family and friends who did not believe and are in hell can still be forgiven of their sins. This is what atonement is all about. It is not limited to the faithful dead as the Church has interpreted scripture and teaches. The Church’s failure to teach the full glory of God costs Christ the salvation of probably millions of souls every year.

Christ Himself has taught me this and His authority is above the Church. I know that I am right and the Church is wrong. You, on the other hand, have no idea. You really should stop belittling me. Even the smallest of God’s children should have a voice in this world and be able to speak their minds.

Oh, so you can speak YOUR mind, but I can’t.

And you claim the authority of Christ and put Him ‘above the Church’, you are right, the Church is wrong.

And you’re claiming I’m belittling YOU when you are the one belittling me and the entire Church.

I feel very sorry for you and I will pray for you. Not in a ‘belittling’ way, but because you are being deluded and that is sad.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Christ’s sacrificial atonement is only good for the faithful. That’s why we must offer up good works as atonement for the sins of the unfaithful. Christ has opened the gates of hell.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The captives are there needing our help to free them.

If He ‘holds the keys’ it’s because keys are needed. . .and keys are needed to lock as well as unlock.

Otherwise why didn’t He say, "I’m throwing away the keys of death and Hades, they’re unlocked forever, I took care of the good guys, now the rest of you can ‘pray out’ the ones who are unfaithful, that’s your job?

 

[notforgotten]

Sarcasm aside, source -

Handbook entitled, “Denominations Comparison” published by Rose Publishing.

Sorry, I don’t have a link. I have the book in my office.

 

[Vonsalza]

Sarcasm aside, source -

Handbook entitled, “Denominations Comparison” published by Rose Publishing.

Sorry, I don’t have a link. I have the book in my office.

I would put very little weight on generic summaries and surveys. Practically none of them are written objectively and the “particulars” are often lost.

Wanna know about Catholics? Ask a priest and read the catechism. Don’t ask your Baptist minister or read a generic survey text. Same concept goes with wanting to learn about Baptists, even though the question of “where does the authority lay” is a tough one to answer for them (as you must always consider who it is you’re asking questions to).

As to the example, they almost certainly didn’t gather the primary data. Look for the citation, if there is one. If there isn’t, put the thing in the trash where it belongs.

 

[notforgotten]

If He ‘holds the keys’ it’s because keys are needed. . .and keys are needed to lock as well as unlock.

Otherwise why didn’t He say, "I’m throwing away the keys of death and Hades, they’re unlocked forever, I took care of the good guys, now the rest of you can ‘pray out’ the ones who are unfaithful, that’s your job?

Christ didn’t acquire the keys to death and Hades until after His sacrifice. It was obviously to set prisoners free.

And, I believe that it is our jobs to help those perishing. They were unfaithful. Atonement must be made for their sins. If you can’t do it for a complete stranger. Then, do it for a friend or family member who was unfaithful and now in hell. What do you have to lose? I could be right. Talk to Jesus about it. Pray on it. Perhaps, He will shine a light for you. After all, He is in the business of salvation…

 

[Vonsalza]

Again, in reference to earlier posts, you shouldn’t call yourself Catholic if the views you hold don’t jive with the Catholic Church.

For sake of intellectual honesty as well as courtesy to actual Catholics.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Robert Bowman (Sr) of the “Independent Catholic Church” or his son?

Either way, you’re following men. . .and yet you claim the "Catholic Church’ is human and fallible, but Sr and Jr aren’t?

Well well well.

 

[Vonsalza]

Christ didn’t acquire the keys to death and Hades until after His sacrifice. It was obviously to set prisoners free.

And, I believe that it is our jobs to help those perishing. They were unfaithful. Atonement must be made for their sins. If you can’t do it for a complete stranger. Then, do it for a friend or family member who was unfaithful and now in hell. What do you have to lose? I could be right. Talk to Jesus about it. Pray on it. Perhaps, He will shine a light for you. After all, He is in the business of salvation…

It would be pointless to pray for those in hell. As you’ve shown some respect for the CCC by citing it:

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs” (CCC 1035). (Copied from CA main site).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Christ didn’t acquire the keys to death and Hades until after His sacrifice. It was obviously to set prisoners free.

And, I believe that it is our jobs to help those perishing. They were unfaithful. Atonement must be made for their sins. If you can’t do it for a complete stranger. Then, do it for a friend or family member who was unfaithful and now in hell. What do you have to lose? I could be right. Talk to Jesus about it. Pray on it. Perhaps, He will shine a light for you. After all, He is in the business of salvation…

You could be right. . .if Jesus were wrong.

I’ll stick with Jesus and the teachings He gives that I can trust.

 

[notforgotten]

I would put very little weight on generic summaries and surveys. Practically none of them are written objectively and the “particulars” are often lost.

Wanna know about Catholics? Ask a priest and read the catechism. Don’t ask your Baptist minister or read a generic survey text. Same concept goes with wanting to learn about Baptists, even though the question of “where does the authority lay” is a tough one to answer for them (as you must always consider who it is you’re asking questions to).

As to the example, they almost certainly didn’t gather the primary data. Look for the citation, if there is one. If there isn’t, put the thing in the trash where it belongs.

Credible sources were consulted, including the Catholic Church.