Salvation & Hope

[Walking_Home]

Maria,

Your understanding of Church teaching is so mixed up, I’m not sure any explanation whatsoever will satisfy you. That is why I pray you will seek counsel from higher authority. Believe it or not, the Church did not stop with the Council of Trent.

You are limiting the further develpment and guidance of the Holy Spirit unless it agrees with what you formerly learned. Do you believe the Documents of V-II are inspired and given our assent? If so, then read L.G. #16:

You may recognize the blue portion as being in the CCC. This is where it came from. Obviously Mohamedans do not believe in Christ, huh? You stated:

However, Mohamedans already hold to the faith of Abraham and adore God. The scriptures and other encyclicals clearly state that God has willed that “faith comes by hearing.” He is not going to supernaturally infuse a special grace before the moment of death to bring them to faith in Christ so that therefore they can be saved. It’s just not true.

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It cannot contradict Trent either. Everything that comes after— must still conform to (interpreted to) what was before----otherwise we have broken the link to Christ Himself.

 

[Walking_Home]

Maria, based on your posts, I can say that you have the most narrow view of God I have ever seen in a person.

God is so infinite we can not understand him or his ways. May I suggest you read the diary of St. Faustina. You will read about the Mercy of God.

You are not obligated to believe it, but I think it would be a humble spiritual exercise.

Jesus will be the mediator between us and God the Father. He will defend us on our death bed, he died for all people, even babies and terrible sinners.

God is all loving and does not predestine anyone to hell, nor does he Will that anyone go to Hell.

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Would you then say—God has a narrow view of salvation:

drbo.org/

Matt: 7
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt:22
11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke:13
21 …23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Believing that a person who is invincibly ignorant of the true religion and who faithfully obeys the natural law will be granted the supernatural gift of faith before he dies is a narrow view of the mercy of God?

Maria

No, it’s not a narrow view, Maria. From what I have read, you are correct in stating that this is the teaching of the Church.

 

[marybee]

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Would you then say—God has a narrow view of salvation:

drbo.org/

Matt: 7
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt:22
11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke:13
21 …23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

So, St. Faustina is a heretic, so is JP2 and Benedict.

 

[Joysong]

Please provide the Church’s source teaching for this:

MTD:

Believing that a person who is invincibly ignorant of the true religion and who faithfully obeys the natural law will be granted the supernatural gift of faith before he dies is a narrow view of the mercy of God?

Acts 10:24, But Peter began and said, “Now I really understand that God is not a respecter of persons, but in every nation he who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

Peter wrongfully felt that only the Jews were to receive God’s word, and it took a three-fold vision to correct his misunderstanding and approach a gentile. We must still evangelize and baptize as Christ asked us, but these particular CCC teachings and exceptions in L.G. are not to be ignored in favor of one’s preconception.

Trent is not in error, but to limit a deeper understanding brought about by the Spirit with subsequent popes and refuse to believe their word is just plain heretical, per Pope St. Pius X’s catechism, et al.

 

[Walking_Home]

Please provide the Church’s source teaching for this:

Acts 10:24, But Peter began and said, “Now I really understand that God is not a respecter of persons, but in every nation he who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”

Peter wrongfully felt that only the Jews were to receive God’s word, and it took a three-fold vision to correct his misunderstanding and approach a gentile. We must still evangelize and baptize as Christ asked us, but these particular CCC teachings and exceptions in L.G. are not to be ignored in favor of one’s preconception.

Trent is not in error, but to limit a deeper understanding brought about by the Spirit with subsequent popes and refuse to believe their word is just plain heretical, per Pope St. Pius X’s catechism, et al.

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If that deeper understanding --does not still conform to the past—there is no past—we have no history in Christ—our Past–is our link (continuity) in Christ.

Might as well say—the Church started with how Joysong interprets LG and the CCC.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home​

Would you then say—God has a narrow view of salvation:

drbo.org/

Matt: 7
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it! 15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matt:22
11 And the king went in to see the guests: and he saw there a man who had not on a wedding garment. 12 And he saith to him: Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? But he was silent. 13 Then the king said to the waiters: Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the exterior darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Luke:13
21 …23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to you: I know you not, whence you are.

So, St. Faustina is a heretic, so is JP2 and Benedict.

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Getting a little touchy there Marybee. Are you upset that the “narrow view” is from Christ Himself.

 

[Joysong]

It really amazes me that only traditionists hold that legalistic prejudice against anyone else but Catholics obtaining salvation from God. I never read of any other Catholics having difficulty believing in the CCC or V-II, especially with regard to ecumenism, except this radical group. Why is that? What animosity is in your hearts that refuses to accept God’s divine perogatives and mercy?

I have also read that in order to justify their errors, some have gone so far as to impute that our later popes are “anti-popes” whose teachings are not authentic or orthodox.

Lumen Gentium is clearly stated, backed up by the CCC, and is believed by faithful Catholics who are in communion with the Church. Period. Amen. Finished. The doctrine is NOT mine, and to those who believe I’m wrong, I invite you to write to Rome, for you will not hear any of us who speak truth to you, when you cannot believe V-II or the CCC either.

When Jesus told the parable about the rich man and Lazarus, he told the damned man that "even if one rises from the dead, there will be no belief.’ He said that Moses and the prophets were sufficient, and to listen to them. And again for our time, “He who hears you (the Church), hears ME.”

 

[Walking_Home]

It really amazes me that only traditionists hold that legalistic prejudice against anyone else but Catholics obtaining salvation from God. I never read of any other Catholics having difficulty believing in the CCC or V-II, especially with regard to ecumenism, except this radical group.
I have also read that in order to justify their errors, some have gone so far as to impute that our later popes are “anti-popes” whose teachings are not authentic or orthodox.

Lumen Gentium is clearly stated, backed up by the CCC, and is believed by faithful Catholics who are in communion with the Church. Period. Amen. Finished. The doctrine is NOT mine, and to those who believe I’m wrong, I invite you to write to Rome, for you will not hear any of us who speak truth to you, when you cannot believe V-II or the CCC either.

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It is quite shameful–Joysong—but not unexpected. How you throw this type of alegations-- at people who disaggree with you.

 

[MTD]

Believe it or not, the Church did not stop with the Council of Trent.

And it did not start with the Second Vatican Council. Also, the pontificate of Pope Pius IX was hardly prior to or simultaneous with the Council of Trent.

1. But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator

The salvation of any Moslem cannot come from his own religion or faith. It must come from the Church and from supernatural faith.

All theologians are agreed that the supernatural faith of any person must, at the bare minimum, be explicit as to the existence of God and an eternal reward, as per St. Paul’s teaching in Hebrews 11:6. Most theologians also hold that the faith must be explicit as to the Trinity and the Incarnation; as you can see from no. 161, the CCC holds this view. It is the preferred opinion by the teaching authority of the Church.

However, Mohamedans already hold to the faith of Abraham and adore God. The scriptures and other encyclicals clearly state that God has willed that “faith comes by hearing.”

Faith is a theological virtue infused by God; see CCC 153. Remember that Cornelius believed even before the preaching of St. Peter. In fact, the story of Cornelius is a perfect example of the way God grants supernatural light and grace to someone who is invincibly ignorant of the true religion yet faithfully obeys the natural law.

He is not going to supernaturally infuse a special grace before the moment of death to bring them to faith in Christ so that therefore they can be saved. It’s just not true.

That’s not what Pope Pius IX taught in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:

“7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

Maria

 

[gorman64]

paramedicgirl:

MTD:

Believing that a person who is invincibly ignorant of the true religion and who faithfully obeys the natural law will be granted the supernatural gift of faith before he dies is a narrow view of the mercy of God?

Maria

No, it’s not a narrow view, Maria. From what I have read, you are correct in stating that this is the teaching of the Church.

Yes, it is the teaching of the Church. Joysong and marybee’s view is one of indifferentism…and that was precisely what was being addressed by Pope Pius IX in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore.

All that Ven. Pius IX is saying in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore is that in that place he is merely cutting off accusations of injustice or “unfairness” against God, having just laid down that there isn’t any salvation outside the Church. In other words, “Don’t worry about the invincibly ignorant - they won’t be left to die in that state. If they are truly innocent they will be brought to salvation by God’s light and grace.” That is, by His LIGHT - which means, by being granted the light of true Faith.

Gorman

 

[MTD]

Please provide the Church’s source teaching for this:

MTD:

Believing that a person who is invincibly ignorant of the true religion and who faithfully obeys the natural law will be granted the supernatural gift of faith before he dies

is a narrow view of the mercy of God?

One source teaching this is no. 7 from Pope Pius IX’s Quanto Conficiamur Moerore:

“7. Here, too, our beloved sons and venerable brothers, it is again necessary to mention and censure a very grave error entrapping some Catholics who believe that it is possible to arrive at eternal salvation although living in error and alienated from the true faith and Catholic unity. Such belief is certainly opposed to Catholic teaching. There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

Maria

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, it is the teaching of the Church. Joysong and marybee’s view is one of indifferentism…and that was precisely what was being addressed by Pope Pius IX in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore.

All that Ven. Pius IX is saying in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore is that in that place he is merely cutting off accusations of injustice or “unfairness” against God, having just laid down that there isn’t any salvation outside the Church. In other words, “Don’t worry about the invincibly ignorant - they won’t be left to die in that state. If they are truly innocent they will be brought to salvation by God’s light and grace.” That is, by His LIGHT - which means, by being granted the light of true Faith.

Gorman

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Question Gorman64:

Does this mean–God will over-ride their free-will and save them without themselves.

 

[Joysong]

MTD:

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments."

With this I agree and it is in accord with the CCC and V-II’s L.G. :clapping:

You are not consistent, however. Previously, you indicated that one of those innocents who observe the natural law (etc.) must come to faith in Christ Jesus, and it would be granted somehow before they die. That assumption is not even taught by Pius IX in the document you cited.

Read the part about God’s divine light and grace enabling these “innocents” to live honest lives. The CCC teaches us about actual graces which all men receive apart from sacramental sanctifying grace. We are exceedingly privileged as His own children to have access to the latter through the Catholic Church; whereas, the natural man in invincible ignorance lives solely by the actual grace of divine light. Our eternal reward will be much different than those who walk in the light of actual graces.

 

[gorman64]

Walking_Home:

Question Gorman64:

Does this mean–God will over-ride their free-will and save them without themselves.

No. I’m not at all sure why you would even ask that question.

Ven. Pius IX is speaking of those struggling with invincible ignorance. The do not die in the state in which they struggle. Remember too, that they are struggling with invincible ignorance while “sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts” and are “ready to obey God”.

Gorman

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Dear Cor:

You are misunderstanding Pius IX here. The point really is that without supernatural Faith one cannot be saved, not that ignorance of any sort can or can’t save, which is a nonsense. Following St. Thomas, we are saying is that a man who hasn’t the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide. If he is innocent, God will send him further graces so that he may be enlightened and brought to salvation. Which is all that Ven. Pius IX is saying in Quanto Conficiamur Moerore. In that place he is merely cutting off accusations of injustice or “unfairness” against God, having just laid down that there isn’t any salvation outside the Church. In other words, “Don’t worry about the invincibly ignorant - they won’t be left to die in that state. If they are truly innocent they will be brought to salvation by God’s light and grace.” That is, by His LIGHT - which means, by being granted the light of true Faith.

None of this was controversial when everyone followed St. Thomas.

Also note that this passage from Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, is under the heading of INDIFFERENTISM in Denzinger. It is not an exception to the Dogma of EENS.

Does this help?

Gorman

I dont see how your case makes sense. Nobody said without grace/supernatural-faith, that document even mentions it is by grace.
You seem to be arguing that if they are “truly innocent” (acually not sure what you mean by that) God will make is so they will find their way to the doorsteps of a Church and be received into it before they die. (I hope Im not misreading you).

Even St Pius X made similar comments in his Catechism:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2159637&postcount=16

 

[Walking_Home]

No. I’m not at all sure why you would even ask that question.

Ven. Pius IX is speaking of those struggling with invincible ignorance. The do not die in the state in which they struggle. Remember too, that they are struggling with invincible ignorance while “sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts” and are “ready to obey God”.

Gorman

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I asked–because of the way it is worded. I understand God will not save us without us. If faith is a pre–requisite for salvation–then what I gathered was–they will be given the knowledge of the gospel and the Church (supernaturally)—but they would still have to make a free-will choice to accept the gospel/Church. If they accept–baptism of desire will incorporate them in to the Church.

 

[gorman64]

I dont see how your case makes sense. Nobody said without grace/supernatural-faith, that document even mentions it is by grace.
You seem to be arguing that if they are “truly innocent” (acually not sure what you mean by that) God will make is so they will find their way to the doorsteps of a Church and be received into it before they die. (I hope Im not misreading you).

Even St Pius X made similar comments in his Catechism:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=2159637&postcount=16

Dear CatholicDude:

Yes, you have misread me.

Following St. Thomas, we are saying is that a man who hasn’t the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide.

They will recieve the light of faith…supernatural faith…making an act of faith. It is not in every case absolutely necessary for salvation to be within the visible communion of the Catholic Church, but it is absolutely necessary to share the Church’s faith and to be united with her at least by desire.

Is that any clearer?

Gorman

 

[gorman64]

Walking_Home:

I asked–because of the way it is worded. I understand God will not save us without us. If faith is a pre–requisite for salvation–then what I gathered was–they will be given the knowledge of the gospel and the Church (supernaturally)—but they would still have to make a free-will choice to accept the gospel/Church. If they accept–baptism of desire will incorporate them in to the Church.

Why do you think I was saying or implying that their free will was denied? I am missing your point completely.

Gorman

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Dear CatholicDude:

Yes, you have misread me.

Following St. Thomas, we are saying is that a man who hasn’t the Faith, whether he is guilty for that or not, cannot be saved. This is de fide.

They will recieve the light of faith…supernatural faith…making an act of faith. It is not in every case absolutely necessary for salvation to be within the visible communion of the Catholic Church, but it is absolutely necessary to share the Church’s faith and to be united with her at least by desire.

Is that any clearer?

Gorman

I think we are thinking of two different questions.

Your arguing a person who has no faith (whether he is guilty or not) cannot be saved.

I was arguing that if a person doesnt make it to Heaven they are guilty of having no faith. Under your proposal a man could somehow not be guilty and yet not be saved (the only answer to this would be because God never wanted him saved, but that would contradict Church teaching).

If anyone has at least the desire means they have cooperated with grace and cannot be guilty.