Salvation Is A Gift?

[VociMike]

I am not claiming anything.

That is the point. I can not speak for him.

I can tell you what I think…

I think himself, and people like him are in bondage…was saved…but have caved to the oppression of the enemy.

did I say “posession”???

no… OPRESSION. If you are filled with the HS, you are SEALED and there is no way for the enemy to penetrate. But, our sinful flesh can be catered to…appeased, …caved in upon.

This is what I am saying…not God. He will and does have the final say.

I can. He can. You can…His OS assurance is not a “was”…it still IS.

I believe God is allowing Him to work this out…why? Because that is what God does…

But you must admit that you don’t know if he was ever saved to begin with. You did admit that earlier.

Or do you believe every single person who at one time believes they are saved, is saved?

I care about truth. I don’t care about reputation.

Yeah, we see that attitude a lot here. Doesn’t fit in very well with “by their fruits” or “but do it with gentleness and respect”. So I humbly invite you, again, to reconsider the forum persona you adopt here.

 

[sodak]

I’ve been having some conversations with my non-Catholic friends and we keep returning to the same argument: How is it that as a Catholic we can say we are never for sure if we will enter into heaven. It is the Catholic understanding that we can HOPE but there is no “for-sure”(Unless you’re a saint canonized by the Church, Jesus, Mary etc…). My understanding is that as a Catholic, I have been saved by the death of Jesus Christ, I am being saved every day by my faith and good works, and I can hope to be saved when I die and enter into the Kingdom. I know that Jesus’ death and our salvation through him is a GIFT. And it is a fact that any gift can be accepted or denied because God granted us Free Will. My non-Catholic friends are convinced that because they have accepted Jesus in some sort of commitment, they have no doubt that they will enter into the Kingdom, no if ands or buts. I keep trying to convey that one must live their life according to how Jesus calls us and it is in how we act and live out our faith that we will be judged accordingly. This ties in with why Catholics pray for the dead too.
*
If anyone can tell me where a section on Salvation is in the CCC or a good reference to help it explain it better, it would be much appreciated!!!*

A good reference is www.newadvent.org. You can also google the Catholic Catechism and get some great resources. You are on the right track, way to go! There are some wonderful, wonderful resources on the web for Catholics.

You are saved. Once and for all. End of story.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“That if you shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

Requirements for salvation…

(…and they have nothing to do with the man made ideals of adhering to sacraments)

Believing that He is your Savior and wants to save you.

Confessing that you need God in your life.

Praying to Him and asking God to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness (past, present, or future).

The only requirement is that you really mean this from your heart. You need to come to the place where you realize that you are lost without God, that you’re willing to turn from your sins, ask Him to forgive you, then ask Jesus to come into your life and take over from you.

Anything else you do is WORKS.

You are not saved by your works. You do not maintain salvation by your works.

It is a gift…NOT a reward.

It can not be taken away. Nor will it.

The OP was asking a question for Catholic resources. To respond as you did is inexcusably rude.

 

[SilentKnight]

In mixed order…

***Max Lucado: ***

*Indeed, baptism is a vow, a sacred vow of the believer to follow Christ. Just as a wedding celebrates the fusion of two hearts, baptism celebrates the union of sinner with Savior. We “became part of Christ when we were baptized” (Romans 6:3) *

Exactly! We became part of Christ **when we were baptized/B]. Not “when we ‘believed’.” He’s absolutely right.

Are we married to Christ prematurely? T

Not following you.

hen can you be saved without being united with christ?

No. You can’t.

Is the wedding in effect BY FAITH ONLY. Doesn’t the ceremony and the certificate as plege have to be obeyed BEFORE one is legally married? The wedding ceremony CELEBRATES nothing: it is the civil MEANS to having the protection and approval of the civil state.

Therefore, according to the laws of the land a wedding DOES NOT celebrate the fusion of two bodies and lives. Rather, only those who have obeyed THAT FORM of law are considered married and able to enjoy the privileges

Look again at Romans 6:3 and see whether you see a vow like a wedding:

Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death,

[that just as (meaning type) Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father]

even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6: 4

Romans 6:3 does not speak of a WEDDING CEREMONY. Rather, it speaks of being stuck or empaled on a cross like a butterfly with a pin.

Before you can FUSE with Christ you have to let Him DIVORCE you from the “old man.”

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Ro.6:6

Crucified is the Greek:

Sustauroo (g4957) soos-tow-ro’-o; from 4862 and 4717; to impale in company with (lit. or fig.): - crucify with.

Faith only does no cause you to TRUST your own ALREADY-spiritual life by placing your body on the cross with Him trusting that you will be resurrected.

Sorry, you lost me in the gym again.

nice snipet…
but a snipet, a cherry pick, a choice of what you want doesn’t reflect the entire message that God is wanting you to understand.

You are merely clinging on to what YOU want to understand, or that you are holding onto for what you have been taught.

Funny that assessment. Something comes to mind about a pot and a kettle, but anyway…

I, like Paul, cling to what I am taught, to what is passed on to me. Not to what I create on my own. Absolutely.

“I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.” (1 Cor 11:2)

“For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you…” (1 Cor 11:23)

This is the Christian faith, not “choose your own Bible verse.”

If you are confident that yours is the correct interpretation of a Bible that is not even complete (you are missing 7 books), then I woud challenge you to perform a very simple task. Trace your beliefs backward in history. If your tradition is correct, then it should be clearly visible in the writings of various Church fathers 300, 700, 1000, 1500 and, say, 1800 years ago. Right?

What you’re going to find, though, is that you will only be able to trace some of your beliefs back a hundred years or so and, at best, 500 years with others. Continue going back in time and all you’re going to find is Catholicism, all the way to the New Testament.

God be with you in your review.

SK**

 

[SilentKnight]

hmmm, could it be conviction of truth piercing the soul?

Churchlady voice: Mmmmm, could it beeeee…SSSSATANNNN?!?





Seriously, dude. I’ve got some pretty thick skin and I must say that after only two or three exchanges with you, I’ve got a pretty bad taste in my mouth at the moment, just like the others.

Regardless of how much we may agree or disagree with eacvh other’s theology, there’s a certain way to deliver your point that would be much more…“attractive” if you were open to it.

Your call.

SK

 

[Angainor]

Salvation Is A Gift?

…My non-Catholic friends are convinced that because they have accepted Jesus in some sort of commitment, they have no doubt that they will enter into the Kingdom, no if ands or buts.

That’s not even it. Salvation is a free gift. It is not because of anything except God’s grace. Not even some sort of commitment. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We were reconciled to God by the death of his Son while we were enemies.*

Christ did not die for us because we made a commitment to him, he died while were were enemies.

Salvation is truly free.

*Romans 5

 

[guanophore]

You are saved. Once and for all. End of story.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“That if you shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” (Romans 10:9)

Neither of these verses state that One is saved “once for all - end of story”. On the contrary, Christian believe is belief that persists until the end. Yes, God desires for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but we know that “the world” is not all saved. Confessing Jesus as Lord is not just lip service, but the practice of the Christian life, even unto death, if s called.

Saving faith is faith that works.

Requirements for salvation…

(…and they have nothing to do with the man made ideals of adhering to sacraments)

Clearly you have been misinformed about the sacraments. These were instituted by Christ, and are not “man made”. It is true that man participates in them, because they are avenues through which the grace of God flows.

Believing that He is your Savior and wants to save you.

Even the demons believe that…

Confessing that you need God in your life.

Where is this in the Bible?

Praying to Him and asking God to forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness (past, present, or future).

This is a good and pious practice. Catholics do this daily with the liturgy of the hours and/or Mass, as well as the Rosary and other devotions.

The only requirement is that you really mean this from your heart. You need to come to the place where you realize that you are lost without God, that you’re willing to turn from your sins, ask Him to forgive you, then ask Jesus to come into your life ad take over from you.

I think this is what is meant by “believing and confessing”. It is a lifestyle of continual repentance and faith toward God.

Anything else you do is WORKS.

You are not saved by your works. You do not maintain salvation by your works.

A state of grace (salvation) is maintained by cooperation with the HS, in whom we are sealed.

2 Peter 1:5-11
"…**make every effort **to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, **be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. **

Apostolic teaching is that we have entered a state of grace (justification) when we are born again. At that time, the Spirit of God is made to dwell within us, and we are being conformed to the image and likeness of God. We are commaned to “make every effort” - not apart from the spirit of God, but working with Him who is able to keep us from stumbling. The apostle shows us that being zealous to confirm our call and election will prevent us from falling away from the grace by which we are saved.

It appears that you have not discovered any distinction between works of the flesh,a nd Sacred Works. Have you ever considered the meaning of Eph. 2:10, or do you always stop reading at vs. 9?

there are rewards connected to salvation. Anything that man does that merits treasure in heaven is a result also of God’s grace. To him be the glory!

This is true, but like any gift, it can be thrown away, disregarded, or disdained. The good shepherd will not allow anyone to snatch us from His hand, but he will not prevent us from jumping out!

 

[clh1217]

On the contrary, Christian believe is belief that persists until the end. Yes, God desires for all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but we know that “the world” is not all saved. .

Saving faith is faith that works.

One does NOT do one good work, UNTIL they are saved, by grace through faith.

It is all about the God given gift to you…and NOTHING you can do FOR Him is going to earn, nor maintain.

The debt was paid…works are works, but they can NOT BE SAVING works.

These were instituted by Christ, and are not “man made”. It is true that man participates in them, because they are avenues through which the grace of God flows.

GIVEN by Christ, …mutilated by man. HUGE difference.

God’s grace is going to flow when the sin is confessed to Christ and the heart is cracked open.

No sacrament can take the place of that. They are laborious stumbling blocks put into place by men.

You do baptism, and receive the Lord’s supper in OBEDIENCE…but not to earn nor maintain.

If you truly believe that you can THWART grace by anything of your doing, you have placed yourself above God…

This is a good and pious practice. Catholics do this daily with the liturgy of the hours and/or Mass, as well as the Rosary and other devotions.

…these are rote and placed by men. NOT by Christ. Your salvation is not set in stone by the practices you adhere to…but is solidfied by your personal relationship…

chopping off a rosary every day is just works, Same with “going to mass” …if you think that is going to save you, or keep you saved…you have been misguided

A state of grace (salvation) is maintained by cooperation with the HS, in whom we are sealed.

2 Peter 1:5-11

This verse doesn’t say you are UNSAVED.

Not at all. This says your life will not reflect the life Christ has given you. You are sacrificing the relationship that has been afforded TO YOU by grace through faith. You will suffer, yes…but salvation is NOT “taken away”.

Apostolic teaching is that we have entered a state of grace (justification) when we are born again. At that time, the Spirit of God is made to dwell within us, and we are being conformed to the image and likeness of God. .

“apostolic teaching” is your first mistake. Is it wrote down and can we back up your apostolic teaching against scripture?

YOUR born again is at 2 weeks old when baptized…which NO infant on the planet could possibly KNOW what they are doing at 2 weeks old. What infant could possibly CHOOSE using free will and choice to have the HS dwell inside.

It appears that you have not discovered any distinction between works of the flesh,a nd Sacred Works. Have you ever considered the meaning of Eph. 2:10, or do you always stop reading at vs. 9?

LOLOL…are you serious?

there are rewards connected to salvation. Anything that man does that merits treasure in heaven is a result also of God’s grace. To him be the glory!

Okay…you are getting there…but salvation can not be taken away.

God is not going to waste His gift on something he is just going to take away???

Think about that in a rational mind for a moment.

To think for a moment that God is going to purposefully SAVE, then purposefully UNsave someone? God does NOT put salvation on a flyfishing line…where we spend our life in a game of catch and release.

This is true, but like any gift, it can be thrown away, disregarded, or disdained. The good shepherd will not allow anyone to snatch us from His hand, but he will not prevent us from jumping out!

You are contradicting yourself in this statement.

The good shepherd will NOT allow anyone to snatch us away…why and where does God tell us that WE could even rip ourselves out from the cleft of His hand. Do you think for a moment that God DOES NOT KNOW that we are our OWN worst enemy???

Do you think He will NOT protect us from OUR SELVES???

The gift is INSIDE you. Jesus PROMISED something…

He will NEVER leave, NOR forsake.

We can break our promise, we WILL break our promise. Several times, sometimes willingly and knowingly…othertimes NOT.

But Jesus promised me something. You too…

Cant you take him at his word?

 

[guanophore]

I think himself, and people like him are in bondage…was saved…but have caved to the oppression of the enemy.

did I say “posession”???

no… OPRESSION. If you are filled with the HS, you are SEALED and there is no way for the enemy to penetrate. But, our sinful flesh can be catered to…appeased, …caved in upon.

Is this the “freedom” that Christ was talking about when He said “if the Son shall set you free, you shall be free indeed”? Did the Son become “weak” and no longer able to maintain freedom in this person?

24 “When the unclean spirit has gone out of a man, he passes through waterless places seeking rest; and finding none he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ 25 And when he comes he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and brings seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man becomes worse than the first.” Luke 11:24-26

If they are “in the house”, how is this not posessed? Was the man never sealed in the first place? What do you think it means to “sweep and put in order”?

I can. He can. You can…His OS assurance is not a “was”…it still IS.

I believe God is allowing Him to work this out…why? Because that is what God does…

So, you beleive someone can fall from grace, blaspheme the holy spirit, and still be saved?

I agree that God is always willing and ready to accept our repentance.

I care about truth. I don’t care about reputation.

clh, Catholic Answers Forum is not a venue created for you to evangelize.

I think you are decieved and are living a lie that Catholicism offers.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but such an attitude is unwelcome here. If you are willing to investigate and correct the many misunderstandings you have of Catholicism, you are welcome here. If you are here to bash are faith, you are not.

Not by your own fault, …but by the flesh caving to the enemies lies.

It seems that you are the one who has been exposed to a lot of lies. I don’t think that is your fault, either. However, your detractions and insults will not be tolerated here.

He never takes it away…it is as secure now as it was when I was first saved…I just have a better relationship with Him, …and a passion for the lost, …or the saved who are walking around in the wilderness.

He does not “take” it away,but He allows us the freedom to throw it away, just like any gift.

If you think Catholics are lost, or are walking around in the wilderness, then why are you here?

 

[guanophore]

I could give the coined ‘he was never saved to begin with’…which also would be scripturally correct. Jesus will NOT lose His sheep.

sure, it can be rejected…resisted. But once you accept, it is a gift that can not be given back.

You have to accept the gift, …and it is a done deal after that.

I am curious how you dispense with this passage:

Heb 6:3-8
4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the **heavenly gift, **and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. 7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned."

Is it your contention that these people never received the gift, since you say that the gift cannot be spurned?

 

[mercygate]

“may” I ask what translation you are using?

The NIV is this

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him **shall not **perish but have eternal life.

the KJV is this:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him **should not **perish, but have everlasting life.

the NAS:
in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

New Life Version:

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son. Whoever puts his trust in God’s Son will no**t be lost but will have life that lasts forever. **

The Greek, "apolhtai’ is subjunctive, indicating possibility, and not certainty. Of the translations you cite, only the KJV permits a subjunctive understanding in English. Perhaps the translators were “securing” their doctrine of eternal security?

sure they do. I am sorry you do not have an ear to hear. I am sorry that you do not have the assurance that God promises…you can not take the one or two sentences OUT OF THE entire passage and expect to just toss out the entire message simply to justify your means.

Protestants often accuse Catholics of “insecurity.” That is a false view of our position. We have great consolation and comfort and the reasonable assurance of salvation.

The fact that the Church rejects the notion of absolute, perfect “assurance of faith” – which is kind of a legal term – in our personal salvation simply recognizes the fact that God will never deprived us of our free will. While nothing can TAKE us out of the hand of God, we retain our ability to jump out. Free will is a condition of love. God will never take away our free will because without it we cannot love.

Earlier you stated:

I think himself, and people like him are in bondage…was saved…but have caved to the oppression of the enemy.

Here you basically state the Catholic position (which is shared by many Protestants as well). The enemy is always busy. It is a personal, constant affirmation and reliance on Christ that is the mark of livng faith.

 

[guanophore]

but when John 3:16 states for “those that believe in Him SHALL NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life”…

that alone is pretty secure. If you continue to read that passage, …there are no “ifs, ands or butts”. Shall is shall…

…and NOT PERISH is NOT PERISH.

Not in this passage, no. However, Catholic doctrine is not formed by cherry picking a few verses from the whole. We do see a great deal of conditional language elsewhere.

One does NOT do one good work, UNTIL they are saved, by grace through faith.

This is good, Catholic Teaching!

It is all about the God given gift to you…and NOTHING you can do FOR Him is going to earn, nor maintain.

Why do you think there are so many passages about maintaining in the faith? were the Apostolic writers just blithering on their scrolls?

The debt was paid…works are works, but they can NOT BE SAVING works.

It seems you are not discerning the difference between works of the flesh, and sacred works.

Jude 20-23
20 But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh."

Why are we enjoined to build our selves up, if this is not possible?

Why are we commanded to keep ourselves in the love of God, if this is not possible?

How can we convince some, if only God can do that?

“save some” If we can’t, why is that written here?

Sure sounds like maintenance to me!

GIVEN by Christ, …mutilated by man. HUGE difference.

Are you here because you think Catholics have mutilated the gospel?

God’s grace is going to flow when the sin is confessed to Christ and the heart is cracked open.

No sacrament can take the place of that. They are laborious stumbling blocks put into place by men.

Actually what you describe is, in fact, the sacrament of reconciliation. If they are laborious stumbling blocks for you, then you are cut off from the grace that is flowing thru them. You are in error that they are “put into place by men”. It was Jesus who instituted all the sacraments.

You do baptism, and receive the Lord’s supper in OBEDIENCE…but not to earn nor maintain.

Well, speak for yourself! We do these things in obedience, yes, but that does not negate the sacramental nature of them. If you think that you are not maintained by God’s grace, then you are misinformed.

If you truly believe that you can THWART grace by anything of your doing, you have placed yourself above God…

No, it was God Himself who created us in His image and likeness. He gave us the power to reject His grace, and thwart His intention for us. It is possible for us to reject the purpose of God for ourselves.

…these are rote and placed by men. NOT by Christ. Your salvation is not set in stone by the practices you adhere to…but is solidfied by your personal relationship…

chopping off a rosary every day is just works, Same with “going to mass” …if you think that is going to save you, or keep you saved…you have been misguided

I admit that there are Catholics who do practice pious devotions by rote, and that it is sometimes not in the heart. There are times I have to force myself to worship. I battle my flesh daily. I also agree that salvation is in a personal relationship with Jesus. However, you are inserting a false dichotomy. Just because one does daily devotions does not mean they don’t have a personal relationship. Do you know anything about the Liturgy of the Hours?

Are you here to inform Catholics that we have been misguided?

 

[guanophore]

2 Peter 1:5-11

I offered this passage because you kept saying that “works” are irrelevant. In this passage the Apostle clearly instructs us to “make every effort”. sounds like work to me!

This verse doesn’t say you are UNSAVED.

Not at all. This says your life will not reflect the life Christ has given you. You are sacrificing the relationship that has been afforded TO YOU by grace through faith. You will suffer, yes…but salvation is NOT “taken away”.

I agree. Throwing away a gift is different than someone taking it away.

“apostolic teaching” is your first mistake.

:dancing: :extrahappy: Oh happy fault!

Is it wrote down and can we back up your apostolic teaching against scripture?

What would be the need? The NT was written by, for, and about Catholics. That is why there is nothing in it that contradicts Catholic Teaching. Both the Scripture and the Tradition reflect the same Apostolic Teaching.

YOUR born again is at 2 weeks old when baptized…which NO infant on the planet could possibly KNOW what they are doing at 2 weeks old. What infant could possibly CHOOSE using free will and choice to have the HS dwell inside.

True.

LOLOL…are you serious?

Quite serious. You did not answer my question, either. Do you always stop reading at Eph 2:9 or do you ever include v. 10? Do you know how to discern the difference between sacred works and works of the flesh? You write about works as though there were only one kind.

You are contradicting yourself in this statement.

Not at all! There is a big difference between a sheep getting lost, and one willfully running away. Jesus clearly let a number of people He loved walk away from Him. He did not chase them. When people choose to reject God, He allows them.

The good shepherd will NOT allow anyone to snatch us away…why and where does God tell us that WE could even rip ourselves out from the cleft of His hand. Do you think for a moment that God DOES NOT KNOW that we are our OWN worst enemy???

I agree that we cannot be snatched, or fall out. Yes, God gives us the freedom to depart from His hands, which were pierced for our transgressions. Indeed, God knows that we are our own worst enemy, and He gives us all the grace we need to surmount that shortcoming. However, He does not save us against our will.

Do you think He will NOT protect us from OUR SELVES???

The gift is INSIDE you. Jesus PROMISED something…

He will NEVER leave, NOR forsake.

We can break our promise, we WILL break our promise. Several times, sometimes willingly and knowingly…othertimes NOT.

But Jesus promised me something. You too…

Cant you take him at his word?

of course! This is exactly why scripture describes the apostate as being in a “worse state than the first”. One cannot be unsealed. However, if one chooses to spurn the protection of the seal, and fall back into sin, then the seal will not save him.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

GIVEN by Christ, …mutilated by man. HUGE difference.

I could say the same about that Bible translation you are using that tells you John 3:16 says “shall not perish”. What a difference a good translation can make. FYI nearly every other (English) version, including the literal versions, say “should not perish, may not perish, and might not perish”.

Please consider carefully which Bible you use, some translations are ‘mutilated’.

 

[clh1217]

One cannot be unsealed. However, if one chooses to spurn the protection of the seal, and fall back into sin, then the seal will not save him.

…then the Good Shepherd is not so good now, …is He???

Breaking promises is not Jesus game…

…

Are you here to inform Catholics that we have been misguided?

…that is ONE reason.

Not on the whole however.

 

[clh1217]

Are you here to inform Catholics that we have been misguided?

…that is ONE reason.

Not on the whole however.

 

[sodak]

…then the Good Shepherd is not so good now, …is He???

Breaking promises is not Jesus game…

…

Since this thread has been rudely hijacked, I’ll play along. Why don’t you try reading Mark, Chapter 6:1-6. The unbelief in Nazareth was so bad, Jesus couldn’t perform miracles there.

How do you explain that? Or are you going to be blasephemous again?

 

[clh1217]

Since this thread has been rudely hijacked, I’ll play along. Why don’t you try reading Mark, Chapter 6:1-6. The unbelief in Nazareth was so bad, Jesus couldn’t perform miracles there.

How do you explain that? Or are you going to be blasephemous again?

At first glance, one might get the impression that Jesus’ miraculous power was utterly dependent upon peoples’ faith in order for it to work.

**That is not the meaning of this verse, however. **It is not that Jesus was unable or incapacitated in performing a miracle in Nazareth. (***Remember – Jesus is the sovereign Creator of the entire universe according to John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, and Colossians 1:16). ***

Or did you forget that…

Shees, talk about blespheny already.

Rather, Jesus “could not” do miracles there in the sense that He WOULD NOT do so in view of the pervasive unbelief in that city.

Jesus’ miraculous deeds are often called “signs” in the New Testament because they serve to signify His identity as the Messiah.

Since the people of Nazareth had already made up their minds against Jesus, and had provided more than ample evidence of their lack of faith in Him, Jesus*** chose not ***to engage in miraculous acts there except for a few healings of sick people.

He refused to bestow miraculous deeds on a city that had rejected the miraculous Messiah. Unbelief excluded the people of Nazareth from the dynamic disclosure of God’s grace that others had experienced.

Because of Nazareth’s rejection of the person and message of Jesus Christ, He went on to other cities that did respond to and receive Him.

 

[clh1217]

I could say the same about that Bible translation you are using that tells you John 3:16 says “shall not perish”. What a difference a good translation can make. FYI nearly every other (English) version, including the literal versions, say “should not perish, may not perish, and might not perish”.

Please consider carefully which Bible you use, some translations are ‘mutilated’.

what does SHOULD NOT say to you?

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him** should not perish**, but have everlasting life.

Kjv

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him **shall not perish **but have eternal life.

Niv

16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

Nlt

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16"For(A) God so loved(B) the world,a that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not(D) perish but have eternal life.

Esv

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him **should not **perish but have everlasting life.

Nkjv

16"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

21st century Kjv

are you saying that there is a question in there somewhere? Like somehow there is an option?

 

[clh1217]

Luke 11:24-26

If they are “in the house”, how is this not posessed? Was the man never sealed in the first place? What do you think it means to “sweep and put in order”?

The house was swept, cleanse and put in order…

but NOTICE THE OBVIOUS…

it was empty.

Jesus’ point is simple.

When you are blessed by a cleansing of evil that allows you to receive fresh spiritual (name removed by moderator)ut, do not leave your inner “house” empty.

The risk is that the void will be refilled with something even worse than what had been banished.

Neutrality is emptiness, a void that eventually is filled by something–often something like what was there before. When we do not respond to God, opportunity becomes tragedy, and the chance for permanent reversal is lost.

He says that we should make sure our inner house is not empty and that we take in light, since emptiness will likely lead to darkness.

So, you beleive someone can fall from grace, blaspheme the holy spirit, and still be saved?

we fall from grace on a daily basis…who are you kidding? Yourself if you think you don’t.

But, you better allow the HS to occupy, or else you are left empty…and will end up WORSE than what you started.

clh, Catholic Answers Forum is not a venue created for you to evangelize.

That is a shame…cuz you people need Christ in a big way…

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, of course, but such an attitude is unwelcome here. If you are willing to investigate and correct the many misunderstandings you have of Catholicism, you are welcome here. If you are here to bash are faith, you are not.

If you feel what I am doing is “bashing”…maybe you better check your conviction meter…

Truth stings sometimes.

It seems that you are the one who has been exposed to a lot of lies. I don’t think that is your fault, either. However, your detractions and insults will not be tolerated here.

of course I am NOT welcome here…Jesus was NOT WELCOME in Nazareth either.

He does not “take” it away,but He allows us the freedom to throw it away, just like any gift.

where does scripture give us room to throw it away? Show ONE example of a TRULY saved individual sacrificed their gift willingly.

If you think Catholics are lost, or are walking around in the wilderness, then why are you here?

…ever heard of the great commission?

 

[sodak]

Rather, Jesus “could not” do miracles there in the sense that He WOULD NOT do so in view of the pervasive unbelief in that city.

Since the people of Nazareth had already made up their minds against Jesus, and had provided more than ample evidence of their lack of faith in Him, Jesus*** chose not ***to engage in miraculous acts there except for a few healings of sick people.

Because of Nazareth’s rejection of the person and message of Jesus Christ, He went on to other cities that did respond to and receive Him.

Very good! I’m glad to see that you have been reading the Catechism!