Salvation Is From The Jews - John 4:22

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, since this is a Catholic forum I thought it only right to mention that Wolfgang Amaedus Mozart was a Roman Catholic, born in Salzburg, Austria, 27 January 1756 and baptized in the Roman Catholic Cathedral (Dom) in Salzburg on 28 January 1756. His father was Johann Georg Leopold Mozart and his mother was Anna Maria Walburga Mozart.

I agree fully Jews have made phenomenal contribution to the world in many fields, proportionately high considering their small numbers as you mentioned.

But it is not fair to ignore what other civilizations have done in their respective parts of the world. Apart from what is well known about the European civilization, the Indian civilization would remind you that four major religions took root on Indian soil - Hinduism, (which they consider to be the oldest religion in the world, with the oldest religious Scripture, the Vedas, starting with Rig Veda), Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. Hindu and Buddhist philosophies are giants in their own way. The Chinese and Indian systems of medicine are very, very old. Chinese have a phenomenal history and culture that is very ancient too. The foundation for Western allopathic medicine was laid in pagan Greece. Think Hippocrates. Greek philosophy needs no mention. The Byzanthine and Islamic cultures and their achievements should not be ignored.

One could go on…

Thaikattil, I don’t want to say upfront that I don’t believe your research about Mozart being a born Catholic. I am going to check this more thouroughly. If you are proved right, I’ll be big enough to apologize and confess that I have been wrong all this time.

Ben:

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Do you really believe that the sun still lights the
day and the moon and stars still light the night? Do you believe that the natural laws have given way in spite of the Lord? If you do, it’s because the race of Israel hasn’t yet ceased being a nation before the Lord. Can you measure the heavens above or the foundations below the earth? I don’t believe you can. Therefore, the Almighty hasn’t yet cast off Israel. (Jer. 31:35-37)

Last but not least, of the other nations God will make an end to them; but of Israel, He will only chastise as we deserve. (Jer. 46:28) That’s a consolation that you can partake of only if you join the club.

My dear friend, let me tell you the secret of our relationship with God. The Almighty would never renounce Israel, who has been betrothed to Him. God does chastise Israel, but it’s like the chastisement of the jealous lover, longing to bring back the beloved to the fresh and pure joy of their first love. I don’t believe you can penetrate the meaning of our commitment to each other.

Ben:

If you can be so arrogant to think this way, so be it. The New Testament has revealed who will be saved and who won’t be. I suggest you read it until you find the part where Jesus says “neither Jew nor Greek, not one who will be saved if they do not believe.”

 

[Hopper]

Does anyone remember seeing Roy H. Schoeman on Marcus Grodi’s program “The Journey Home” on EWTN?

He is a Jew – now a Catholic Jew and he wrote a most excellent book “Salvation is from the Jews” That’s what made me start reading this thread because I saw that title and thought this was going to be a discussion on his book.

Same theme though…

Anyway Ben, Salvation is from the Jews and God loves His chosen people and I have a particular love for the Jews. I’ve got to go read that book again.

Here’s a synopsis of the his book “Salvation is From the Jews” from the Barnes and Noble web site:

The book traces the role of Judaism and the Jewish people in God’s plan for the salvation of mankind, from Abraham through the Second Coming, as revealed by the Catholic faith and by a thoughtful examination of history. It will give Christians a deeper understanding of Judaism, both as a religion in itself and as a central component of Christian salvation.
To Jews it reveals the incomprehensible importance, nobility and glory that Judaism most truly has. It examines the unique and central role Judaism plays in the destiny of the world. It documents that throughout history attacks on Jews and Judaism have been rooted not in Christianity, but in the most anti-Christian of forces.
Areas addressed include: the Messianic prophecies in Jewish scripture; the anti-Christian roots of Nazi anti-Semitism; the links between Nazism and Arab anti-Semitism; the theological insights of major Jewish converts; and the role of the Jews in the Second Coming.

Hopper

 

[chosen_people]

I don’t understand why we’re playing this game but if we are we should stick to the facts.

The Jews have only been allowed to integrate into general western society since the 19th Century. Jews make up approximately one quarter of one per cent of the world’s population. They should be hardly seen or felt but because of their disproportionate contributions to society they are accused of “controlling the world”.
Mozart was not Jewish and today it is believed he probably died from eating tainted pork. Jews, at the time Mozart lived, no matter how talented, were not musicians at court and were not commissioned to write operas. Jewish composers of the 19th Century, when integration first began into general society, felt it incumbent to "convert’. However from the 20th Century Jewish composers were openly Jewish, Gershwin, Copland and Bernstein to name a few. It is an interesting fact that all of the top ten secular Christmas songs were either written entirely by Jews or in partnership with Jews.

The four most influential thinkers of the last two hundred years were Marx, Darwin, Freud and Einstein. All, except Darwin, were Jewish.

If you want to find out who were the Jews behind the computer technology that allows us to communicate on this forum, where the Jews who invented the cell phone lived or why your children are free from polio see: jinfo.org/

 

[ricmat]

Do you really believe you are the chosen one anymore since the Jews reject Christ? In Ezekiel, God tells him that he has given the Jews ears but they do not hear, and eyes but they do not see. He also wanted to erase His own people from the earth because they did not listen to Him, that is why God sent His Son to the Jews because they weren’t listening.
For 40 years the Jews roamed the desert because they broke the Covenant so many times. Yes, the Jews were once the chosen, but it is the gentiles who are the chosen ones now.

What you state above is not Catholic teaching.

The Jews remain the chosen people and the “first born” of God’s children. God does not want to erase them from the earth. It must be said however that the Church is the new Israel, the new Jerusalem. All are invited regardless of genetic heritage. Many Jews remain outside the Church. As Catholics we acknowledge the role they played in preparing mankind for the first coming of Christ, and revere them as our “older brothers.” And we pray that we will all be together in heaven in the end.

 

[Ben_Masada]

If you can be so arrogant to think this way, so be it. The New Testament has revealed who will be saved and who won’t be. I suggest you read it until you find the part where Jesus says “neither Jew nor Greek, not one who will be saved if they do not believe.”

That’s amazing!!! I refuse to believe my eyes as I read this post above! I didn’t do anything but read what the Prophet Jeremiah wrote, and I am the arrogant. Why not Jeremiah himself?

Oh, I understand. You know that’s written, but I can almost hear you say, “please, don’t remind us of what is written.” I am sorry my friend, you are going to either have to tear off those pages from your Bible, or stop claiming your Replacement Theology that we have been rejected and replaced by Catholics or your ears will be tired to hear my voice in favor of the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism.

Ben:

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

What you state above is not Catholic teaching.

The Jews remain the chosen people and the “first born” of God’s children. God does not want to erase them from the earth. It must be said however that the Church is the new Israel, the new Jerusalem. All are invited regardless of genetic heritage. Many Jews remain outside the Church. As Catholics we acknowledge the role they played in preparing mankind for the first coming of Christ, and revere them as our “older brothers.” And we pray that we will all be together in heaven in the end.

**Ezekiel 20:13:

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not observe my statutes, and they despised my ordinances that bring life to those who keep them. My Sabbaths too, they desecrated grieviously. THEN I THOUGHT OF POURING OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE DESERT TO PUT AN END ON THEM, but I acted in my name’s sake, that it not be profaned in the sight of nations in whose presence I had brought them out.**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, since this is a Catholic forum I thought it only right to mention that Wolfgang Amaedus Mozart was a Roman Catholic, born in Salzburg, Austria, 27 January 1756 and baptized in the Roman Catholic Cathedral (Dom) in Salzburg on 28 January 1756. His father was Johann Georg Leopold Mozart and his mother was Anna Maria Walburga Mozart.

I agree fully Jews have made phenomenal contribution to the world in many fields, proportionately high considering their small numbers as you mentioned. And for my part I’m deeply grateful that Jesus was a Jew and Christianity was brought to my Hindu ancestors by a Jew, Apostle Thomas.

But it is not fair to ignore what other civilizations have done in their respective parts of the world. Apart from what is well known about the European civilization, the Indian civilization would remind you that four major religions took root on Indian soil - Hinduism, (which they consider to be the oldest religion in the world, with the oldest religious Scripture, the Vedas, starting with Rig Veda), Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism. Hindu and Buddhist philosophies are giants in their own way. The Chinese and Indian systems of medicine are very, very old. Chinese have a phenomenal history and culture that is very ancient too. The foundation for Western allopathic medicine was laid in pagan Greece. Think Hippocrates. Greek philosophy needs no mention. The Byzanthine and Islamic cultures and their achievements should not be ignored.

One could go on…

Hi Taikattil, that’s me back as I promised you. I checked on two Encyclopedias and you are right. I am embarrassed for my mistake to have argued that Mozart was Jewish. He was indeed baptized as a Catholic. Unless he descends from a Jewish family of composers who had to convert
in order to be appreciated in high society for their talent. In fact, that was a Jewish custom till the end of the 18th Century. But the
truth is that no matter how, Mozart was not Jewish. I apologize for my false pretension.

Ben:

 

[Lev23]

**Ezekiel 20:13:

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not observe my statutes, and they despised my ordinances that bring life to those who keep them. My Sabbaths too, they desecrated grieviously. THEN I THOUGHT OF POURING OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE DESERT TO PUT AN END ON THEM, but I acted in my name’s sake, that it not be profaned in the sight of nations in whose presence I had brought them out.**

It is impossible for you to show one-liners to support your idea that the God of Israel is done with Israel, that is, Jews.

Furthermore, the New Testament writings do not support what you say either. The first Church fathers were all Jewish, and here is what they had to say about Gentile salvation.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Jews and Gentiles become one new man in the Church, and never is this exclusive to one or the other.

 

[ricmat]

What you state above is not Catholic teaching.

The Jews remain the chosen people and the “first born” of God’s children. God does not want to erase them from the earth. It must be said however that the Church is the new Israel, the new Jerusalem. All are invited regardless of genetic heritage. Many Jews remain outside the Church. As Catholics we acknowledge the role they played in preparing mankind for the first coming of Christ, and revere them as our “older brothers.” And we pray that we will all be together in heaven in the end.

**Ezekiel 20:13:

But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not observe my statutes, and they despised my ordinances that bring life to those who keep them. My Sabbaths too, they desecrated grieviously. THEN I THOUGHT OF POURING OUT MY FURY ON THEM IN THE DESERT TO PUT AN END ON THEM, but I acted in my name’s sake, that it not be profaned in the sight of nations in whose presence I had brought them out.**

Yes, that’s a quote from the Bible. A single paragraph amongst perhaps 2000 pages.

How about this, from the CCC:

**674 **The glorious Messiah’s coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by “all Israel”, for “a hardening has come upon part of Israel” in their “unbelief” toward Jesus. St. Peter says to the Jews of Jerusalem after Pentecost: “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for establishing all that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old.” St. Paul echoes him: “For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?” The “full inclusion” of the Jews in the Messiah’s salvation, in the wake of “the full number of the Gentiles”, will enable the People of God to achieve “the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”, in which “God may be all in all”.

 

[Lev23]

In “Salvation is from the Jews,” Jesus meant to that Samaritan woman much more than just what most of us understand that he meant himself. He didn’t. He meant the whole nation, the Jewish People. How’s that?

Please, don’t get startled with the following statement, because I’ll
explain. If Israel existed before the Flood, this would not have
happened. Do you know why the Flood happened? Because "The Lord saw how great was man’s wickedness on earth, and how no desire that his heart conceived was ever anything but evil. (Gen. 5:5)

After the Flood, God promised Noah that "Never again He would doom the earth because of man. (Gen. 8:21) What about if man became wicked again? How would God make good on His promise to Noah?

It happens that Israel was on the make with the rise of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Israel would be the pledge to guarantee God’s promise to Noah that the world would be saved of another similar catastrophe.

I believe that’s what Jesus had in mind when he told that Samaritan woman that salvation is from the Jews. That’s what keeps the world going. And that’s how Salvation is from the Jews.

Ben

I think we can both agree that one aspect of being chosen is doing the work of the God of Israel on earth for his Glory and for the welfare of the the whole world. St.Paul teaches in Romans that God always has a faithful remnant of Jews. At this time, that is those Jews who are in the Church, who with Gentiles who are chosen, are made one new man under Messiah, sovereignly grafted into the olive tree of Israel, and are co-heirs of God’s glory. St.Paul, as well as all the scriptures, teach that God always choses Jews to bring forth his message and work of salvation. And so it will be in the future also. The Gospel is to go to “the Jew first.” The Church, in the beginning, was all Jewish.

**Romans 1:1-6
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. Through him and for his name’s sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

Verse 16 and 17
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”**

So with this in mind, I will post a few New Testament scriptures that attest to what Jesus meant in John 4:22.

**John 4:22
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 28:28
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

Hebrews 2:3
…how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.

Jude 1:3
Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.**

 

[Lev23]

Ben Masada,

One more thing to remember, is that Samaritans probably did not recognize the succession of prophets like the Jews did. For they believed the Messiah is like a prophet like Moses, and Moses only.(Deut 18:15). They were right to think that. But the Jewish prophets also spoke of great detail of the Messiah to come, that is Yeshua, or Jesus.

Hence, “salvation is from the Jews”.

 

[swariffin]

Oh! No doubt. We have produced a few figures who have culturally passed to belong to the world at large. Einstein is one of them, unless the Catholic Church has already baptized him as a Catholic. Another one is Sigmund Freud. Was he also a Catholic? Carl Max is another. I don’t even know if these people are still Jewish. When someone is a genius, usually their Jewishness is promptly denied.

Ben:

I do not doubt a genius Jewish such as Einstein. Given your long history of struggle, It is understandable that the Jewish were forced to think harder to survive. In that case, it is normal if the Jewish tend to be innovative. Including your creative thinking about Jesus. Too bad, your creativeness was not used to end your quarrels. Otherwise, you should have re-established your own temple, destroyed long time ago.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

I do not doubt a genius Jewish such as Einstein. Given your long history of struggle, It is understandable that the Jewish were forced to think harder to survive. In that case, it is normal if the Jewish tend to be innovative. Including your creative thinking about Jesus. Too bad, your creativeness was not used to end your quarrels. Otherwise, you should have re-established your own temple, destroyed long time ago.

 

[MHalsey]

What you state above is not Catholic teaching.

The Jews remain the chosen people and the “first born” of God’s children. God does not want to erase them from the earth. It must be said however that the Church is the new Israel, the new Jerusalem. All are invited regardless of genetic heritage. Many Jews remain outside the Church. As Catholics we acknowledge the role they played in preparing mankind for the first coming of Christ, and revere them as our “older brothers.” And we pray that we will all be together in heaven in the end.

Not just the Jews, but the entire Hebrew nation are God’s chosen people. All the tribes. God did not forsake the 10 tribes of the diaspora. They have found salvation in Jesus. As will the Jews before the end.

As for the Jews being the collective salvation, that cannot be possible. Only a perfect sacrifice is worthy to bring salvation. The Jews have shown themselves throughout the Old Testament to be anything but perfect. Indeed, no single MAN is perfect. Only God is perfect. Only God can be the source of our salvation. Therefore salvation cannot come collectively from the Jews as Ben claims. Only God becoming Man is a worthy sacrifice for the salvation of all.

 

[ricmat]

Not just the Jews, but the entire Hebrew nation are God’s chosen people. All the tribes. God did not forsake the 10 tribes of the diaspora. They have found salvation in Jesus. As will the Jews before the end.

Of course… I’m not speaking of the Jews as only Judah. I’m using the common terminology which today refers to the Hebrews as “jews.”

As for the Jews being the collective salvation, that cannot be possible. Only a perfect sacrifice is worthy to bring salvation. The Jews have shown themselves throughout the Old Testament to be anything but perfect. Indeed, no single MAN is perfect. Only God is perfect. Only God can be the source of our salvation. Therefore salvation cannot come collectively from the Jews as Ben claims. Only God becoming Man is a worthy sacrifice for the salvation of all.

I think you’re referring to someone else’s post directly above, but I’ll add that I agree that no man or collective of men, Jews, Christians, whatever can atone for our sins. It has to be a perfect sacrifice - something that God gives us specifically for the purpose (Jesus).

 

[MHalsey]

Of course… I’m not speaking of the Jews as only Judah. I’m using the common terminology which today refers to the Hebrews as “jews.”

I think you’re referring to someone else’s post directly above, but I’ll add that I agree that no man or collective of men, Jews, Christians, whatever can atone for our sins. It has to be a perfect sacrifice - something that God gives us specifically for the purpose (Jesus).

I figured that. But I get the feeling that many forget that ALL the tribes are the chosen people.

The rest of my post was my response to Ben’s contention.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

It is impossible for you to show one-liners to support your idea that the God of Israel is done with Israel, that is, Jews.

Furthermore, the New Testament writings do not support what you say either. The first Church fathers were all Jewish, and here is what they had to say about Gentile salvation.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Jews and Gentiles become one new man in the Church, and never is this exclusive to one or the other.

God told Ezekiel to preach to the gentiles by telling him "They have ears but do not hear, they have eyes, but do not see."

 

[Hopper]

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church;

Page 222

839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the convenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

This then is the relationship of the Church with the Jews. The church honors our Jewish brothers and sisters. According to the flesh is the Christ and that is how salvation comes from the Jews. The savoir of the world came from the Jews and for that reason Satan hates the Jews and is forever persecuting them down through history and history can be a sad commentary for all races and peoples because we can all find cruelties done to each other in that past. It should not be so.

I’ve been skimming through other threads now since I happened upon this one and Ben I see you have been sort of giving a hard time here to the Christian faith, and I got thinking wow, perhaps the Messiah will fix His gaze of Love upon you because you are giving so much attention here to His Church.

God Bless Hopper

 

[Ben_Masada]

From The Catechism of the Catholic Church;

Page 222

839 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.