Salvation Is From The Jews - John 4:22

[S_J_Thaikattil]

Hi Taikattil, that’s me back as I promised you. I checked on two Encyclopedias and you are right. I am embarrassed for my mistake to have argued that Mozart was Jewish. He was indeed baptized as a Catholic. Unless he descends from a Jewish family of composers who had to convert
in order to be appreciated in high society for their talent. In fact, that was a Jewish custom till the end of the 18th Century. But the
truth is that no matter how, Mozart was not Jewish. I apologize for my false pretension.

Ben:

Ben, no need to apologize. Everyone are permitted to be wrongly informed about anything, including a Jew. I’m poorly informed about many things. I don’t feel embarrassed about that.

Western classical music in Europe was very much an outgrowth of Christian piety for many centuries. It is all supposed to have started with the Gregorian chants of Benedictine monks and went on to develop in various forms from there. And all classical music remained Christian religious music for many centuries. So it is not by accident that the most famous composers were Christians until secular music was introduced. Even then many of the best composers were Christians (mostly Roman Catholics) in the beginning. So if Jews were less represented in classical music of Europe in the early centuries, it is simply because music was specifically Christian and all European rulers were Christians who patronized Christian music. Would a Jew have changed his religion simply to play Christian music?

I’m familiar with the definition of a Jew only from the Old Testament. It is an ethnic and religious identity. According to that understanding of Jewishness, I would expect every Jew to be of Middle Eastern descent, since the Jews of the Old Testament were prohibited from intermarriage. At the time of Jesus, they did not even associate with Samaritans. However European Jews are white European with European names, African Jews are black, Indian Jews are olive skinned etc. My guess is that locals converted to Judaism through marriage and thus Jews intermingled with the locals adopting even their names and customs, because more and more of them were actually locals.

You might like to read the perspective of Christianity from a modern Jew named Pinchas Lapide.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Who decided when the time was right, Paul?

Christ did; after being crucified. An example:
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, " Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

Yes, because he was the one who started baptizing in the name
of Jesus. See Acts 19:4,5.

John 4:1Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
2(although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),
3He left Judea and went away again into Galilee.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The first opportunity! What are you talking about?
Not according to Jesus. If you read Matthew 15:24, he himself said that his mission was ONLY to the Jews. Who changed it to be first to the Jews, Paul? I think your Messiah was rather Paul than Jesus.

He fullfill Gods promise to Abraham and Jacob. It is what completes the OT.
See: Matthew 24:14
Matbe you should try and understand this in context of the discussion.: Matthew 20:1-16

That’s the great commission. What makes you think that it was given by Jesus? And do you think Jesus would speak of himself in the third person, saying, "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit? Don’t you think the hand of Paul is in this pot, since he was the one who started baptizing in the name of Jesus? (Acts 19:4,5)

Ben:

What makes you think it wasn’t? As noted above the Gospel of John indicates the Disciples were baptizing others before his crucifixion and Peter spoke of baptizing in the name of Jesus in Acts before Paul entered the history.

What tense is God speaking in Exodus 34:5-7?

 

[Ben_Masada]

Christ did; after being crucified. An example:
Matthew 17:9
As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, " Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."

If Jesus had talked about his resurrection, the Apostles would not have considered the story of the resurrection a nonsense and idle tale. Read Luke 24:11.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

If Jesus was known to Peter as Christ, why didn’t he preach about him as such in Jerusalem for about 30 years till Paul showed up with that very message and was nearly killed by the local Jews? Does it make sense to you?

He fullfill Gods promise to Abraham and Jacob. It is what completes the OT.

And what was God’s promise to Abraham and Jacob if I may ask?

What makes you think it wasn’t? As noted above the Gospel of John indicates the Disciples were baptizing others before his crucifixion and Peter spoke of baptizing in the name of Jesus in Acts before Paul entered the history.

All part of the 80 percent of strange interpolations.

What tense is God speaking in Exodus 34:5-7?

In the gerund. A participle present that indicates sequence of action. What is this question supposed to imply? If you are thinking about Jesus, there is nothing in there even to hint at.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, no need to apologize. Everyone are permitted to be wrongly informed about anything, including a Jew. I’m poorly informed about many things. I don’t feel embarrassed about that.

Western classical music in Europe was very much an outgrowth of Christian piety for many centuries. It is all supposed to have started with the Gregorian chants of Benedictine monks and went on to develop in various forms from there. And all classical music remained Christian religious music for many centuries. So it is not by accident that the most famous composers were Christians until secular music was introduced. Even then many of the best composers were Christians (mostly Roman Catholics) in the beginning. So if Jews were less represented in classical music of Europe in the early centuries, it is simply because music was specifically Christian and all European rulers were Christians who patronized Christian music.

Would a Jew have changed his religion simply to play Christian music?

You ask above if a Jew would ever change his religion to play Christian music. Well my friend, Henry Kinssinger
did to become American Secretary of State.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

**Tell us then Ben the black history of the church, it must involve the Jews correct? Always playing the victim here Ben. Tell us the misinformation you have about the Spanish Inquisition (which was a government thing) and I shall tell you many stories about this, which include the Jews. **

Oh yes, I had forgotten that Torquamada was a Government figure. I thought he was a Catholic Monk. Sorry. But go ahead and tell me about the equal attrocities perpetrated by Jews. I would like to know something knew.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

**In the bible, Peter’s name was Simon (Jewish name, no?), then changed to Cepha, then to Peter. Paul use to be Saul (Jewish name, no?) **

Peter never changed his name, and neither did Jesus. You are so naive as to believe that the Church didn’t do exactly that in order to document itself with Apostolical succession. God have mercy on naivite!

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

#1
Jesus stated himself that he was sent only to Israel.

I know about that. It’s in Matthew 15:24)

Before Jesus went back to the Father, he comminishened the Church to preach the Gospel, starting in Jerusalem to the ends of the Earth.

That’s not true as a statement from the lips of Jesus but from the writer of the first gospel. Jesus would not contradict himself.

Wherever the Jews went to preach the Gospel outside Israel, they would always go to the local synagogues first. It only makes sense, were the Greek Pagans waiting for a Jewish Messiah, or were the synagogues and Jewish communities?

Those were not Jews preaching gospel. But Paul who was incapable to start a church from scratch; so, he would get into the synagogues of the Nazarenes and overturn them into Christian churches.

Matthew-15:21-28
Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

About this one, I recommend you to read my thread about “A Bad Thing Jesus Did.” I explain there in details.

#2.

Does a Jew leave Judasim to be in a Church, or to be under the New Covenant, which is highly Jewish? It is highly Jewish since it was promised by the God of Israel to the House of Israel and Judah.
(Jeremiah 31:31). You have no point of arguement to say a Jew who believes in Jesus is not Jewish anymore.

The New Covenant has nothing to do with Gentiles. It was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah as one. Stop exploiting Judaism as if it is no longer Jewish.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

I do not invent or fabricate anything which is not already down on the pages of the NT. I just elaborate from the evidences recorded. And why do I do that? Because, the writers of the NT built Christianity by tempering with Judaism. I am just being a small voice in defense of the Faith of Jesus, which was Judaism. That’s all.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

I am all ears! If it makes sense, I am ready to reconsider my views. Go for it!

Ben:

 

[S_J_Thaikattil]

You ask above if a Jew would ever change his religion to play Christian music. Well my friend, Henry Kinssinger did to become American Secretary of State.

Ben:

Ben, but Henry Kissinger wasn’t expected to play Christian music, nor even quote the Bible as part of his duties. But it is something else to practice Christian music at least nine hours a day, day in, day out, week after week, year after year…and REPRESENT Christian music.

If you are implying, if someone plays good music, he must be a Jew or at least of Jewish descent, that is not being very kind to European talent, or musical talent elsewhere in the world. (India has a tradition of two types of classical music that is ancient and not a single Jew is part of the tradition.)

How sure are you that Jews in Europe who converted to Christianity didn’t do it from conviction? Edith Stein is a very good famous recent example. In her writings she has mentioned several Jews who converted to Christianity out of conviction.

You seem to forget too that Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew and He had only Jewish followers and there were many early converts to Christianity who were also Jews.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Oh yes, I had forgotten that Torquamada was a Government figure. I thought he was a Catholic Monk. Sorry. But go ahead and tell me about the equal attrocities perpetrated by Jews. I would like to know something knew.

Ben:

**Yes, Torquamada was but one man. One man in the Spanish Inquisition, then again, the Inquisition is often viewed anyway as being directed against Jews, in fact it had no jurisdiction or authority over unconverted Jews, or Muslims.
Only Baptised Christian/Catholics faced investigation, and of those called to appear before the Holy office, most were released after the first hearing.

He also appears to have had Jewish ancestry. His ancestor had married a first generation Jewish convert, and his grandmother was also a Jewish convert. (“Torquamada”, by Thomas Hope).**

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, but Henry Kissinger wasn’t expected to play Christian music, nor even quote the Bible as part of his duties. But it is something else to practice Christian music at least nine hours a day, day in, day out, week after week, year after year…and REPRESENT Christian music.

If you are implying, if someone plays good music, he must be a Jew or at least of Jewish descent, that is not being very kind to European talent, or musical talent elsewhere in the world. (India has a tradition of two types of classical music that is ancient and not a single Jew is part of the tradition.)

How sure are you that Jews in Europe who converted to Christianity didn’t do it from conviction? Edith Stein is a very good famous recent example. In her writings she has mentioned several Jews who converted to Christianity out of conviction.

quote]You seem to forget too that Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew and He had only Jewish followers and there were many early converts to Christianity who were also Jews.

Now yes, you must definitely be joking to include Jesus among converted Jews to Christianity or Catholicism. When Christianity started with Paul in Antioch, Jesus had been dead for about 30 years already. (Acts 11:26)

Ben:

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Oh yes, I had forgotten that Torquamada was a Government figure. I thought he was a Catholic Monk. Sorry. But go ahead and tell me about the equal attrocities perpetrated by Jews. I would like to know something knew.

Ben:

Oh ok, then I guess the atrocities committed right now against the Palestinian people at Gaza is ok right? Give me a break.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Oh ok, then I guess the atrocities committed right now against the Palestinian people at Gaza is ok right? Give me a break.

Only ignorance makes one speak from outside about what is going on here between Israel and Gaza. Israel is not to blame for a single death which happens in Gaza. The difference between us and the Arabs in Gaza or Lebanon is that we use weapons to protect our children, and they use their children to protect their weapons. Therefore, they themselves are to blame for every single one among them who dies.

Besides, when Israel decides to take some action it’s because we can’t any longer suffer the daily missiles being thrown from Gaza and Lebanon into our cities. We had been suffering this kind
of things since the year 2000. Only now we decided that’s enough. Then, one-sided we decided to ceasefire. Since then there hasn’t been a day without a cassam missile being thrown on us.

I wish Mexico was doing this across America just to see what America would do. And for that matter, any other Country in this world. But Israel, everyone seems to think that we are supposed to be aways on the barrow side of the gun and never on the trigger side. If you ask me, we should do to them what they had promised to do to us in 1948 when their brothers the Arabs persuaded them to leave Israel and return later to take possession of the Jewish homes when they pushed us into the sea. We should have pushed all of them into the desert.

Now, their Arabic brothers should be brought to international trial to pay for what they did to them by making them refugees up to this day. They should use their petrol dollars and take them all
to inhabit their empty countries in need of people.

You guys out there love to accuse the Jews since the First Century with the death of Jesus and even up to this very day, when we can no longer suffer and react back with force. I don’t know where you have got this idea that we have to be always the scapegoat. Guess what? Think again because you are mistaken.

Ben:

 

[S_J_Thaikattil]

Now yes, you must definitely be joking to include Jesus among converted Jews to Christianity or Catholicism. When Christianity started with Paul in Antioch, Jesus had been dead for about 30 years already. (Acts 11:26)

Ben:

Ben, how could I have known you were such a literalist after all the non-literalist interpretation of the New Testament you display here? OK. Let me give it another go: Christianity was founded by Jesus, a Jew, so why should any Jew feel ashamed to convert to Christianity? I really don’t understand why you need to go on and on and on and on and on…about Paul being the founder of Christianity, when Jesus founded the religion and had 12 disciples, excluding Paul who was chosen after the Resurrection of Jesus. All the disciples of Jesus and Paul were Jews.

You don’t have to accept Christianity as your religion. But there is no need to deny obvious facts.

 

[Ben_Masada]

Yes, I heard you loud and clear. But for Arabs to push Jews into the sea and let them drown is perfectly all right from the Christian standpoint. Isn’t that right, Jharek? Let me hear how the shoe thightens in the other foot. Unless Jews don’t have nerves to hurt.

Ben:

 

[Ben_Masada]

Ben, how could I have known you were such a literalist after all the non-literalist interpretation of the New Testament you display here? OK. Let me give it another go: Christianity was founded by Jesus, a Jew, so why should any Jew feel ashamed to convert to Christianity? I really don’t understand why you need to go on and on and on and on and on…about Paul being the founder of Christianity, when Jesus founded the religion and had 12 disciples, excluding Paul who was chosen after the Resurrection of Jesus. All the disciples of Jesus and Paul were Jews.

You don’t have to accept Christianity as your religion. But there is no need to deny obvious facts.

Now, you are the one going on and on without a piece of ground to set your foot in terra firma. You deny your own NT and accept perhaps what your church says. Acts 11:26 is very clear by saying that Christians started with Paul in Antioch. Why do you deny that Luke was inspired to say that? Jesus never had anything to do with Christianity, which started only 30 years after Jesus was gone. The Nazarenes, or the New Way was what originated from Jesus. If those Nazarenes existed today I would have no problem joining them. But Christianity is another all different question.

 

[S_J_Thaikattil]

Now, you are the one going on and on without a piece of ground to set your foot in terra firma. You deny your own NT and accept perhaps what your church says. Acts 11:26 is very clear by saying that Christians started with Paul in Antioch. Why do you deny that Luke was inspired to say that? Jesus never had anything to do with Christianity, which started only 30 years after he died. The Nazarenes, or the New Way was what originated from Jesus. If those Nazarenes existed today I would have no problem joining them. But Christianity is another all different question.

Ben, it should give you consolation to know that in Kerala, India, where I come from, Christians were in fact known as Nazaranees. A rose by any other name…Apostle Thomas preached Jesus Christ. Why do you continue to make believe Paul was not a Jewish Pharisee who converted to Christianity, no matter what it was called? It was The Way to God through Jesus. Read John chapters 14-17.

 

[Verisimilitude]

If Jesus had talked about his resurrection, the Apostles would not have considered the story of the resurrection a nonsense and idle tale. Read Luke 24:11.

You take advantage of being far removed from the time and place to apply a reasoning that is unrealistic and somewhat hypocritical to the events. The Gospels are clear with numerous examples, not the least of which is Peter denying even knowing Jesus when arrested despite the many examples of Peters affirmation of Jesus such as Matthew 16:16. Human nature is a funny thing when it comes to understanding our creator. That seeming NT contradiction is explained similarly by the OT one of Jews praying to the golden calf after being led from Egypt by the parting of waters, whirlwinds of fire… The stubbornness of Jews has a long history.

If Jesus was known to Peter as Christ, why didn’t he preach about him as such in Jerusalem for about 30 years till Paul showed up with that very message and was nearly killed by the local Jews? Does it make sense to you?

Why do you insist the Disciples and growing community of believers were not proclaiming this before Paul showed up about 2 years after the crucifixion when Steven was martyred which Paul witnessed with approval? Why also do you think someone should have put pen to paper immediately after the crucifixion or Pentecost, having it published in a way that satisfies you now, in texts other than those that we do have? Yes, it seems reasonable it took the form it did.

1st century reality before the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD, but after Christ resurrected was a time filled with the proclamation of Christ. The modern Jewish/Moslem insistence to discredit Christianity as purely a Pauline creation is only a means to justify your own belief because of Pauls success.

And what was God’s promise to Abraham and Jacob if I may ask?

To reconcile humanity to God, not just the Jews, but through them.
Another example is Matthew 22:1-14. The Jews were the invited guests but were too busy to attend. Paul, like Peter and the others were the slaves sent out to call both evil and good to attend the feast.

You should go back and read Matthew 20:1-16 again with the relevant phrase being:

15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’

16"So the last shall be first, and the first last."

There is no need to be envious of Gods generosity, but now everyone is invited.

 

[Hopper]

Only ignorance makes one speak from outside about what is going on here between Israel and Gaza. Israel is not to blame for a single death which happens in Gaza. The difference between us and the Arabs in Gaza or Lebanon is that we use weapons to protect our children, and they use their children to protect their weapons. Therefore, they themselves are to blame for every single one among them who dies.

Besides, when Israel decides to take some action it’s because we can’t any longer suffer the daily missiles being thrown from Gaza and Lebanon into our cities. We had been suffering this kind
of things since the year 2000. Only now we decided that’s enough. Then, one-sided we decided to ceasefire. Since then there hasn’t been a day without a cassam missile being thrown on us.

I wish Mexico was doing this across America just to see what America would do. And for that matter, any other Country in this world. But Israel, everyone seems to think that we are supposed to be aways on the barrow side of the gun and never on the trigger side. If you ask me, we should do to them what they had promised to do to us in 1948 when their brothers the Arabs persuaded them to leave Israel and return later to take possession of the Jewish homes when they pushed us into the sea. We should have pushed all of them into the desert.

Now, their Arabic brothers should be brought to international trial to pay for what they did to them by making them refugees up to this day. They should use their petrol dollars and take them all
to inhabit their empty countries in need of people.

You guys out there love to accuse the Jews since the First Century with the death of Jesus and even up to this very day, when we can no longer suffer and react back with force. I don’t know where you have got this idea that we have to be always the scapegoat. Guess what? Think again because you are mistaken.

Ben:

Ben, I totally agree with your take on what is happening there in Israel. I myself get so upset and have argued the point that you make of I’d like to see that happen here in America with daily bombings coming into our country and see if we’d sit back and just take it.

What I find a little disturbing is that you seem to want to keep lobbing attacks at the Christian faith and have the history all tainted from a point of view that you have surmised or has been taught to you…

Hey, we have a commom enemy “Islamic terrorist” want to eliminate the Jewish people and the Christian people.

I live here in New York and it was a little disconcerting to see the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip rejoicing and cheering when learning of the bombing of the Twin Towers.

Why attack the Christian faith Ben? I mean wouldn’t be better to enjoy your Jewish faith and the love of God in your own life and heart?

Why continue in endless polemics which is obviously not going anywhere?

God Bless, Hopper