Salvation Is From The Jews - John 4:22

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Hopper said:
Ben, I totally agree with your take on what is happening there in Israel. I myself get so upset and have argued the point that you make of I’d like to see that happen here in America with daily bombings coming into our country and see if we’d sit back and just take it.

What I find a little disturbing is that you seem to want to keep lobbing attacks at the Christian faith and have the history all tainted from a point of view that you have surmised or has been taught to you…

Hey, we have a commom enemy “Islamic terrorist” want to eliminate the Jewish people and the Christian people.

I live here in New York and it was a little disconcerting to see the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip rejoicing and cheering when learning of the bombing of the Twin Towers.

Why attack the Christian faith Ben? I mean wouldn’t be better to enjoy your Jewish faith and the love of God in your own life and heart?

Why continue in endless polemics which is obviously not going anywhere?

God Bless, Hopper 🙂
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Hopper, are you aware that we have been losing Jews by the thousands every year to Christianity? This is happening for lack of knowledge. According to Hosea, “My People perish for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6) That’s what I have decided to do: To restore them, wherever they are.

The second reason is that I believe in the historical Jesus, and that he was an Orthodox practicing Jew. To claim that he was born of God with a woman, is to insert Hellenistic innovations into Judaism, when Greek Mythology is absolutely anathema to Judaism.

Ben: 🙂
 
Ben_Masada said:
Hopper, are you aware that we have been losing Jews by the thousands every year to Christianity? This is happening for lack of knowledge. According to Hosea, “My People perish for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6) That’s what I have decided to do: To restore them, wherever they are.

The second reason is that I believe in the historical Jesus, and that he was an Orthodox practicing Jew. To claim that he was born of God with a woman, is to insert Hellenistic innovations into Judaism, when Greek Mythology is absolutely anathema to Judaism.

Ben: 🙂
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Ben, where exactly are Jews being lost by the thousands to Christianity? What exactly is drawing Jews to Christianity?

Besides, why are you so upset to lose Jews to an Orthodox Jew, Jesus? Isn’t it just movement within the family? 🙂
 
S_J_Thaikattil said:
Ben, where exactly are Jews being lost by the thousands to Christianity? What exactly is drawing Jews to Christianity?

Besides, why are you so upset to lose Jews to an Orthodox Jew, Jesus? Isn’t it just movement within the family? 🙂
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Okay Thaikattil, are you trying to be funny now?
Almost five hundred thousand former Jews are within the classification of “Messianic Jews.” a Christian organization of Jews who have misleadingly come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. And I am not talking about the “Jews-for-Jesus” who have a few thousands of their own.

Now, for your question about what exactly is drawing Jews to Chrisltianity, that’s a good question. Because I do wonder. And regarding loosing Jews to the Jewish Orthodox Jesus, is not what upsets me. It’s not to Jesus but to Paul. If those Nazarenes, followers of Jesus’ teachings were here, I would have no qualms to join them. That’s the point. Our People are perishing for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)

Ben: 🙂
 
Ben_Masada said:
Okay Thaikattil, are you trying to be funny now?
Almost five hundred thousand former Jews are within the classification of “Messianic Jews.” a Christian organization of Jews who have misleadingly come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. And I am not talking about the “Jews-for-Jesus” who have a few thousands of their own.
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By far most ‘Messianic Jews’ I’ve ever come across are Christians with a taste for a bit of judaica in their lives.

Where I live most religions are losing ground heavily to ‘general indifference’.
 
’ They have taken my Lord away and I do not know where they have placed Him’ were the anguished words of St.Magdalene when she came to the tomb and did not find our Lord’s body .

Soon after , she came across someone whom she thought was a gardener - till her eys and ears were opened by the tender and Fatherly comapssion in His voice ; He who had been crowned with thorns so that all the moments of her (and our ) ungodly , prideful thoughts and moments could be cast at His feet - for moments of grace and mercy ( The Word says how the ungodly are like thorns !) and thus so with each of His sufferings -all that He took with the power of Love , to pour out that love and power into the wounds and wants of His children , who can confidantly bring their one possession - their misery , their sins to Him as well as of others , for the healing balm of mercy - to be poured into generations past as well !

And what a power that is !

We have accounts of King David - a great King indeed , yet on his death bed he is asking King Solomon , to take revenge on those who had hurt him .

’ Do not let the sun set on your anger and give the devil a foothold ’ ; the Holy Spirit warns us through St.Paul - for the longer we meditate and make a god of the evil of the one who wronged us , do we not let ourselves become conformed to that image !

King Solomon has that scene when he reverentialyy stands up at the entrance of the Queen Mother yet when she presents her request , seems to snub her with a vengeful attitude !

Here , we have someone who had the utmost in wisdom of things of his world (and good to see how that wisdom , still present in many of his descendants has served to be for much good in the world !)

yet, that yearning to take revenge - did it slowly eat away at the fidelity of King Solomon , distort his judgements and lead him into pagan practices that then become the downfall of the kingdom !

’ My Kingdom is not of this world " our Lord has said - for it is a Kingdom where one tastes the new wine - the wine of joy in being the children of our Father and not based on earthly passing treaures ; and where one does things out of that most dignified and joyful identity ( not the other way around - when works are done to earn a place in His Heart ! )
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 And one gets to already taste the infinite love The Father has for His children -  the mercy, the forgiveness and the gratitude that comes with it - and all of it celebrated joyfully when His children participate in the worship of our Lord and Father , in our Liturgy - heaven on earth !
And there is peace - the most precious gift He can give us here - brought forth esp. by lives of His powerful saints ; just one example - there is a rather unknown (atleast on this forum ) St.Faustina who only had a 3rd grade education and lived unknown and poor in a convent yet being in full coopertaion with our Lord’s grace , she has become well known world over -( a miracle and phenemoneon by itself ) as a messenger of His mercy - 'aching human hearts will not have peace till it comes to My mercy " .

Salvation indeed is from the Jews and may God bless us each and all to receieve that peace !
 
Ben_Masada said:
Hopper, are you aware that we have been losing Jews by the thousands every year to Christianity? This is happening for lack of knowledge. According to Hosea, “My People perish for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6) That’s what I have decided to do: To restore them, wherever they are.
Ben: 🙂
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Thank you Ben for explaining your reason for your words. I mean, I do not agree with your take on Christianity but I can certainly understand the pain and hurt you feel when seeing your fellow Jews leaving and joining some denomination of Christianity.

We also have different beliefs within the Christian faith and it was very hurtful for me as a Catholic Christian to lose my oldest brother to an evangelical Protestant denomination that thought Catholics were all going to hell. Hence, that’s why you have this website and forum of Catholic Answers, thanks to Karl Keating.

At least now I know your reasons for stating your opinions as you do.

God Bless, Hopper
 
John 4:22

You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.

23

But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.

24

God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth."

There are 3fold meanings to God’s word. I will just mention one at this time; Yes Salvation is from the Jews, because God promised this from his Law and Prophets. A mystery gets revealed to the Samaritan woman that it is he Jesus the Jew who is her true husband “Bael” standing in front of her. So Jesus reveals to her, he Jesus a Jew will give her water to drink that will quench her thirst forever.

What our Op failed to complete is the next verses that follows. When Jesus speaks about his Catholic church, about the hour is coming and is now here when the TRUE WORSHIPERS WILL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND TRUTH"… FOR GOD IS SPIRIT.

So yes Salvation came from the Jews, Jesus a Jew who fulfilled all these mysteries in order to give us the Spirit in order to be true worshipers who worship not on this mountain or that one, but in Spirit and Truth.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Okay Thaikattil, are you trying to be funny now?
Almost five hundred thousand former Jews are within the classification of “Messianic Jews.” a Christian organization of Jews who have misleadingly come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah. And I am not talking about the “Jews-for-Jesus” who have a few thousands of their own.

Now, for your question about what exactly is drawing Jews to Chrisltianity, that’s a good question. Because I do wonder. And regarding loosing Jews to the Jewish Orthodox Jesus, is not what upsets me. It’s not to Jesus but to Paul. If those Nazarenes, followers of Jesus’ teachings were here, I would have no qualms to join them. That’s the point. Our People are perishing for lack of knowledge. (Hosea 4:6)

Ben: 🙂
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Ben, I was not being funny at all. I have not heard of these mass conversions you seem to be referring to. Over how many centuries have this five hundred thousand Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus been converted to Christianity? Where exactly do they live?

You still have not answered my dilemma in understanding the exact definition of Jews. The OT gives a different definition which does not make room for white European Jews, black African Jews, olive skinned Indian Jews (although it must be said Jews in India had adhered strictly to no intermarriage with non-Jews because marriages were arranged for Indians of all religions, and with rare exceptions it still is).

The answer to this question is relevant only for your consolation. It would convince you Gentiles did convert to Judaism through marriage over the many centuries they have lived in different parts of the world. That was gain for the Jewish community and it more than makes up any loss to conversion to Christianity. Don’t you agree?
 
S_J_Thaikattil said:
Ben, I was not being funny at all. I have not heard of these mass conversions you seem to be referring to. Over how many centuries have this five hundred thousand Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus been converted to Christianity? Where exactly do they live?
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I was invited to visit a place of worship for “Messianic Jews” and read on the boletin board about the number of “Messianic Jews”, and they were celebrating the number 500,000 they had arrived at. “Jews-for-Jesus” is another organization. I am not too sure how many Jews have joined them.
They live everywhere. That was a mundial number of adepts.
You still have not answered my dilemma in understanding the exact definition of Jews. The OT gives a different definition which does not make room for white European Jews, black African Jews, olive skinned Indian Jews (although it must be said Jews in India had adhered strictly to no intermarriage with non-Jews because marriages were arranged for Indians of all religions, and with rare exceptions it still is).
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Because of the Diaspora, Jews have taken all sort of racial tone. The European ones idenfy a lot with the Khazars, who as a nation converted to Judaism at the time of Rabbi Yehudah HaLevi. Myself, I am of Sephardic orientation. My ancestors came from Cordova in Spain.
The answer to this question is relevant only for your consolation. It would convince you Gentiles did convert to Judaism through marriage over the many centuries they have lived in different parts of the world. That was gain for the Jewish community and it more than makes up any loss to conversion to Christianity. Don’t you agree?
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You could be right. That’s why I do not believe that the Jewish People is a race but a religion. Therefore, Jews can lose their Jewishness when they confess loyalty to another religion.

Ben: 🙂
 
Ben_Masada said:
Have you ever read a History of the Jews? There is a good one by Paul Johnson, a Christian man. If you dare to use part of your time to read that book, you will come to the conclusion that I am not exaggerating after all.

Jharek, if it were not for us the Jews, the world would still be in the cave worshipping the stone and the fire; or even a block of wood in the form of a demon. I mean, you would not know the meaning of the word Monotheism. If it were not for us the Jews, people would still be dying with many more incurable diseases.

There are only 14 million of us in this world living with another six or more billion people. How do you explain that 50 percent of all Nobel prizes go to the Jews? Visit any hospital and count the Jewish Doctors. And mind you people prefer them because they are the best. Visit Universities anywhere. If Jews are not the Professors in the majority, I’ll be surprised. In civilized Countries, I mean.

As far as charity is concerned, visit public places anywhere. If Jews are not the most famous givers, I’ll be disappointed. And before I forget, check the Arts especially Music. You won’t find too many genius of the size of a Mozart, who was considered a “son of God” even by non-Jews.

Well, if I keept adding to the list, I’ll run out of list to add. Besides, I am sure you must have got the idea of what I mean by now.

Ben: 👍
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Right, because as well all know Jews are the only real people on earth and the rest of the goim are just animals and lower races akin to dogs, as talmud teaches.

You are full of **** my man. None of the Jews that ever achieved anything did so because of their own merit but because they were raised in another culture. The problem with you is that you are parasites. You move to a different culture but never really adjust, you always want to be culture within culture. But non the less, none of your achievements are your own.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Hopper, are you aware that we have been losing Jews by the thousands every year to Christianity?
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It’s the power of God. The entire Catholic church is praying for the conversion of Jews this Lent. Our prayers are getting answered I guess.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace
mario_grgic said:
It’s the power of God. The entire Catholic church is praying for the conversion of Jews this Lent. Our prayers are getting answered I guess.
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hey , Catholics are also praying for Muslims ? 🙂
 
Ben_Masada said:
It’s amazing how human vanity can dare! To worship the Father in spirit and truth, Catholics are the last ones in this world to qualify, since they need statues in order to worship God. How could this be worship in spirit and truth? Hardly!.

Where, in the church before the crucifix and other statues? You must be kidding! Do you think people don’t have eyes to see? We have brough to you Monotheism and you insist on woshipping idols of clay and wood.

Ben:
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Ahh, yes. When all else fails, fall back on the old “Catholics worship idols” trick.

It’s like watching a boxer in a ring who’s is losing miserably and just starts flailing his arms. The fight is lost. It’s only a matter of time before the ref steps in.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

hey , Catholics are also praying for Muslims ? 🙂
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We pray that all people will come to the light hear the gospels and believe them, but Jews are mentioned explicitly though :D.
 
I am only posting here to second Jharek’s comment. Mario, that was incredibly rude, cruel, and not at all in keeping with Catholic teaching on the Jews. Please, for the sake of your own soul during this most sacred time of year and recognition of your and Ben’s common human dignity (which is a Divine Gift to you both in kind), quietly reflect upon your attitude towards the Jews and ask that you be guided towards a more gentle way of dealing with those with whom you disagree. Please do not allow your own passions in defending the Church and the faith to blind you. It does nothing to help bring anyone to Christ or to demonstrate Christian principles to those who remain separated from us.
 
dzheremi said:
I am only posting here to second Jharek’s comment. Mario, that was incredibly rude, cruel, and not at all in keeping with Catholic teaching on the Jews. Please, for the sake of your own soul during this most sacred time of year and recognition of your and Ben’s common human dignity (which is a Divine Gift to you both in kind), quietly reflect upon your attitude towards the Jews and ask that you be guided towards a more gentle way of dealing with those with whom you disagree. Please do not allow your own passions in defending the Church and the faith to blind you. It does nothing to help bring anyone to Christ or to demonstrate Christian principles to those who remain separated from us.
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Actually this has nothing to do with defending the Church or the faith. His comment that I replied to was not about faith at all. It was about the assumed superiority of Jews over everyone else on the planet. I just reminded him that majority if not all of Jewish achievements are not product of Jewish culture, but the culture in which the Jews live.

It is just idiotic to think that Mozart or Freud achieved what they did because they were Jews, instead because they were Austrian, and lived in advanced culture that allowed them to develop their talent.
 
Muslim_Woman said:
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Salaam/peace

hey , Catholics are also praying for Muslims ? 🙂
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Why not? The muslims are also human. The Catholics are human. The Buddhist, Hindhuist, even the atheist are human. So, we are all humans. We believe that all human are created by God, and has the brotherhood (sisterhood) link in humanity.
 
Ben_Masada said:
Who decided when the time was right, Paul? Yes, because he was the one who started baptizing in the name
of Jesus. See Acts 19:4,5.

The first opportunity! What are you talking about?
Not according to Jesus. If you read Matthew 15:24, he himself said that his mission was ONLY to the Jews. Who changed it to be first to the Jews, Paul? I think your Messiah was rather Paul than Jesus.

Interesting! And Jesus did not know that? Yes, because he had an aversion to Gentiles, since his mission was ONLY to the Jews.

That’s the great commission. What makes you think that it was given by Jesus? And do you think Jesus would speak of himself in the third person, saying, "Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit? Don’t you think the hand of Paul is in this pot, since he was the one who started baptizing in the name of Jesus? (Acts 19:4,5)

Ben: 🙂
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Your arguments were just like the muslims. Did you read Mat 28:19. The same message I ask the muslims, when you read Matthew, for instance, please read till the end. Don’t stop to any verse suited to your Jewish ideology.
 
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