Salvation Is From The Jews - John 4:22

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Ben_Masada said:
**Jesus was a Jewish man. He would have to be crazy to be referring to himself on an individual basis. There, by the Well of Jacob, were two nations in a dialogue: The Jewish People represented by Jesus and all the Gentiles represented by the Samaritan woman. You, the Gentiles, said Jesus, worship what you don’t know. And we, the Jews, know what we worship. Because salvation is of the Jews. (John 4:22-24)

Jesus was not referring to personal salvation, which is the responsibility of everyone in particular. He was referring to collective salvation to be free of universal catastrophes, as God promised to Noah, would never be allowed again, and Jeremiah connected that promise to the existence of Israel on earth. (Jer. 31:35-37)**
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Does not Jewish sacrifice require a blood sacrifice? And where is the blood sacrifice since the destruction of the temple? And why did God allow the destruction of the temple and exile of the Jewish people because previous exiles were always marked by God’s displeasure with the jews of the time ? And since the jews have not rebuilt the temple where is the sacrifice required by God in the Torah?
You say that a jew would never have claimed to be Messiah or God incarnate and I say not unless he really was and you say such a claim was uncharacteristically unJewish and I say that his claim was very characteristically jewish when he says “Before Abraham was, I Am”.
 
THis is very interesting, since I have always believed that every divine Messenger had something to do with salvation --Noah had to deliver certain ones from the deluge and Moses literally had to save the Israelites out of Egypt etc.The emphasis in the Gospel appears to have been personal salvation, which was facilitated by betrayal and crucifixion.

But there are other levels of salvation, perhaps the greatest, the preservation of the entire eco-system, before it is too late! And this can only be accomplished through collective global action. Are we capable?
**
…the object of life to a Bahá’í is to promote the oneness of mankind. The whole object of our lives is bound up with the lives of all human beings; not a personal salvation we are seeking, but a universal one…Our aim is to produce a world civilization which will in turn react on the character of the individual. It is, in a way, the inverse of Christianity which started with the individual unit and through it reached out to the conglomerate life of men. **(Shoghi Effendi, quoted by Rúhíyyih Khanúm, Bahá’í News, no. 231, [May 1950], pp. 6-8)
 
Ben_Masada said:
God have mercy on those whose blinders are too tight on their eyes!
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Interesting that you should say this for it is exactly what Jesus said about the Pharisees & others who would not believe Him quoting a scripture from the Prophets. " They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear."
 
DavidMark said:
Hello to Ben Masada and all:
I love Eretz Israel so much. I have been twice on Baha’i pilrimage and visited many other places around the country.
From my perspective the Holy Land is holy because the Holy One would appear there, the One Who spoke from the Burning Bush, Yahweh Sabaoth, the Lord of Hosts, Who would redeem the Jews when the “Time of the Gentiles” was over. Well, they have their own country again --the Promised One must be in the world!
It is my understanding that when Isaiah says in chapter 11, that He raise an ensign for the nations and will assemble the outcasts of Israel" and “gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth” it is talking about now. The exodus ships came into the Haifa harbor and above them was the Shrine of 'Alí, the Báb (Gate) waiting for them.
They make ‘aliyah’ to Yerushalayím, but a New Jerusalem is already descended from heaven.
I am interested in your opinion of this imporant matter.

jewbahais.blogspot.com/
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I don’t believe in this New Jerusalem descending from heaven. This sounds likes stuff dreams are made of. The New Jerusalem is a city that has been built by the Jews here on earth. See how elated you returned from visiting Israel and Jerusalem? That’s the New Jerusalem we have built.
 
DavidMark said:
THis is very interesting, since I have always believed that every divine Messenger had something to do with salvation --Noah had to deliver certain ones from the deluge and Moses literally had to save the Israelites out of Egypt etc.The emphasis in the Gospel appears to have been personal salvation, which was facilitated by betrayal and crucifixion.

But there are other levels of salvation, perhaps the greatest, the preservation of the entire eco-system, before it is too late! And this can only be accomplished through collective global action. Are we capable?
**
…the object of life to a Bahá’í is to promote the oneness of mankind. The whole object of our lives is bound up with the lives of all human beings; not a personal salvation we are seeking, but a universal one…Our aim is to produce a world civilization which will in turn react on the character of the individual. It is, in a way, the inverse of Christianity which started with the individual unit and through it reached out to the conglomerate life of men. **(Shoghi Effendi, quoted by Rúhíyyih Khanúm, Bahá’í News, no. 231, [May 1950], pp. 6-8)
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But with due respect we are each individually responsible for our own behavior and even collective salvation begins with the individual. You can’t have the one without the other.
 
Ben_Masada said:
I don’t believe in this New Jerusalem descending from heaven. This sounds likes stuff dreams are made of. The New Jerusalem is a city that has been built by the Jews here on earth. See how elated you returned from visiting Israel and Jerusalem? That’s the New Jerusalem we have built.
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So, you would prefer to have the works of men - “the New Jerusalem we have built” - rather than the works of God?
 
Having been to the nearest thing to heaven I’ve ever known on Mount Carmel, I can tell you it is a lot different from Jerusalem. Take the clashes on the Temple Mount recently. Why can’t it be like Mount Carmel’s gardens, where all races and religions are astonished at the glory of God’s grandeur? Because most people don’t take Bahá’u’lláh seriously. I am so heart-broken because there is a limit to what I can show you in here.

info.bahai.org/article-1-6-5-3.html

media.bahai.org/subjects/locations/

Two threads I started were shut down because they were not Catholic enough. But you can go here and get a glimpse of the New Jerusalem taking shape on Mount Carmel, to “catch everything when it falls”. Without a doubt it is as it was in the days of Noah; Gd will not force anyone to come into His Ark, and He provides answers to all things before we even have the sense to ask.

Say: O concourse of the rulers and of the learned and the wise! The Promised Day is come and the Lord of Hosts hath appeared. Rejoice ye with great joy by reason of this supreme felicity. Aid Him then through the power of wisdom and utterance. Thus biddeth you the One Who hath ever proclaimed, ‘Verily, no God is there but Me, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.’ (Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 239)
**
"Call out to Zion, O Carmel, and announce the joyful tidings: He that was hidden from mortal eyes is come! His all-conquering sovereignty is manifest; His all-encompassing splendor is revealed. Beware lest thou hesitate or halt. Hasten forth and circumambulate the City of God that hath descended from heaven, the celestial Kaaba round which have circled in adoration the favored of God, the pure in heart, and the company of the most exalted angels.
Oh, how I long to announce unto every spot on the surface of the earth, and to carry to each one of its cities, the glad-tidings of this Revelation – a Revelation to which the heart of Sinai hath been attracted, and in whose name the Burning Bush is calling: ‘Unto God, the Lord of Lords, belong the kingdoms of earth and heaven.’ **

**Verily this is the Day in which both land and sea rejoice at this announcement, the Day for which have been laid up those things which God, through a bounty beyond the ken of mortal mind or heart, hath destined for revelation. Ere long will God sail His Ark upon thee, and will manifest the people of Bahá who have been mentioned in the Book of Names." **( Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 15)
 
I see that Ben Masada has been banned. I don’t even believe he was Jewish either. Pretty mean if you ask me.
 
One of the instruments God used to bring about salvation thru Jesus was Judas Iscariot.
He enabled the authorities to lay hands on Lord Jesus and do with Him whatever they wanted. “Crucify him!” the Jews shouted.

But even with that, the destiny of the Jews had yet to involve their dispersment from the Holy Land and their re-assembling there. The time of the gentiles is over, and Jews control the land again. Consider again the challenge announced by another appearance of meekness the like of Jesus.

O Jews! If ye be intent on crucifying once again Jesus, the Spirit of God, put Me to death, for He hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you. Deal with Me as ye wish, for I have vowed to lay down My life in the path of God. I will fear no one, though the powers of earth and heaven be leagued against Me. Followers of the Gospel! If ye cherish the desire to slay Muhammad, the Apostle of God, seize Me and put an end to My life, for I am He, and My Self is His Self. (Bahá’u’lláh, GWB, p. 101)

**O Concourse of Jews! Ye were of Me, appeared from Me and returned to Me. How is it that ye do not recognize Me now when I have appeared with all the signs? Ye have taken foes for friends and abandoned the real Friend! In this Day the New Heaven hath appeared and the earth is renewed. Were ye to gaze with pure eyes, ye would behold the New Jerusalem; and were ye to turn with attentive ears, ye would hear the voice of God. **(Bahá’u’lláh, Bahá’í Scriptures, p. 116)
 
OneTrueCathApos said:
I see that Ben Masada has been banned. I don’t even believe he was Jewish either. Pretty mean if you ask me.
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Precisely what was the purpose of this remark?

In what way does it contribute anything positive to the subject?

He was graceous enough to not comment when your account was under review - pity you couldnt afford him the same courtesy and charity.
 
“When you glorify and honor the memory of Christ, rest assured that the Christians will take your hands in real fellowship. All difficulty, hesitancy and restraint will vanish. Consider the troubles and persecutions heaped upon you in Russia for your fanaticism of unbelief. And you must not think that this is ended. This humiliation will continue forever.
**The time may come when in Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. **But your declaration that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble. My advice is that in order to become honorable, protected and secure among the nations of the world, in order that the Christians may love and safeguard the Israelitish people, you should be willing to announce your belief in Christ, the Word of God. This is a complete statement; there is nothing more. Is it not thoughtless, ignorant prejudice which restrains you from doing so? Declare that, verily, the Word of God was realized in Him, and all will be right.”

The rabbi thoughtfully said, “I believe that what you have said is perfectly true, but I must ask one thing of you. Will you not tell the Christians to love us a little more?”
We replied, “We have advised them and will continue to do so.”

~From a talk delivered by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá one day after an address at Eighth Street Temple, Synagogue, Washington, D. C., 1912 (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 402)
 
DavidMark said:
**The time may come when in Europe itself they will arise against the Jews. **But your declaration that Christ was the Word of God will end all such trouble.
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Just shows how wrong you can be, doesn’t it?
 
Kaninchen said:
Just shows how wrong you can be, doesn’t it?
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Who was wrong here? Neither Abdu’l-Baha nor His Father wanted the Holocaust to happen. Baha’u’llah said:
**At present the light of reconciliation is dimmed in most countries and its radiance extinguished while the fire of strife and disorder hath been kindled and is blazing fiercely. Two great powers who regard themselves as the founders and leaders of civilization and the framers of constitutions have risen up against the followers of the Faith associated with Him Who conversed with God. **[1] Be ye warned, O men of understanding. It ill beseemeth the station of man to commit tyranny; rather it behoveth him to observe equity and be attired with the raiment of justice under all conditions. Beseech ye the One true God that He may, through the power of the hand of loving-kindness and spiritual education, purge and purify certain souls from the defilement of evil passions and corrupt desires, that they may arise and unloose their tongues for the sake of God, that perchance the evidences of injustice may be blotted out and the splendour of the light of justice may shed its radiance upon the whole world. The people are ignorant, and they stand in need of those who will expound the truth.[1 Moses.]

Abdu’l-Baha, who loved the Jews with everyone else, and heard His Father, from a Muslim background, say it was time for them to re-inhabit Eretz Israel again, made this warning in 1912. Inspite of the Holocaust, the exodus ships came into Haifa harbor and found the Shrine of the Bab there to greet them, which i interpret as the enisign set up in Isaiah 11 call them fromthe four corners of the earth. Why?
The time of the gentiles is over! It was exactly 2300 years from 1 Nisan, 456 BC till 1 Nisan (21 March) 1844 CE, and this is one of the times Daniel was given.
We should hold hands and dance in a circle!
 
Kaninchen said:
The NSDAP wasn’t interested in what our religion was, it was our race that was the problem - Jews who had converted to Christianity went up the chimney just the same.
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In fact there have been two instances where a large amount of Jews voluntarily turned their backs on their eternal covenant with God and converted to Christianity.

The first case was in Spain after the massacre of Jews by Catholics which began under the auspices of the Archdeacon Martinez in March 1391. The Jews who converted in the aftermath believed that it would protect them from being murdered. It set off the chain of events that would eventually culminate in the Spanish Inquisition and the murder, forced conversion and forced expulsion (in 1492) of the entire 1000 year old Jewish community on the Iberian peninsula.

The second time was in the 19th century in Germany when Jews were granted citizenship for the first time and began to be granted civil and legal rights. The large number of Jews who converted believed that this would allow their children to fully integrate into German society without suffering the prejudices of anti-Semitism. As in Spain, the eventual result was the total annihilation of the entire German Jewish community including any person that had even a single Jewish grandparent.
 
Kaninchen said:
The NSDAP wasn’t interested in what our religion was, it was our race that was the problem - Jews who had converted to Christianity went up the chimney just the same.
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Kaninchen, That is a good point. I am reluctant to get into a discussion of the Holocaust
–I am more attracted to the hopeful signs for a future in which all races and religions are worshipping God.
Ben Masada: When I speak of the “New Jerusalem”, I do not mean an intangible dream, or a literal city encrusted with gems. For Baha’is, it has several meanings:
  1. It is the Divine Manifestation Himself, He is the refuge, the destination, the Qiblih, the “Strong City” of Achor/Akko, promised by David, which Napoleon could not take.
  2. It is the “new name” mentioned in Revelation 3:12 for the city and the Manifestation.
  3. It is the new Law given that governs the new civilization.
  4. It is the new teachings, not a new religion, but the renewal of the ancient Faith
  5. It is seen and entered by lovers who have sought and found the pasture to lie down in
  6. It is what Baha’u’llah specifically called Ridvan (Paradise) on a small island retreat in the river Na’mayn that flows into the sea near Akko. Ridvan was also the Garden in Baghdad where He had announced His Mission in 1863 CE.
  7. It will be the twin cities of Haifa and Akko merged in the future as the heart of the world
One believer had an awe-inspiring experience as he gazed upon the face of Bahá’u’lláh in the Garden of Ridvan. He was known by the name of Haji Yahuda. He grew up in a Jewish family; his father was the chief Rabbi of the city of Rasht and its neighbouring towns in the north of Persia. In his youth, he used to work as a pedlar travelling to various cities.
On one of his trips to Hamadan, he encountered a few Bahá’ís who acquainted him with the Mission of Bahá’u’lláh and consequently he was converted to the Faith.
Around the year 1888-9 He travelled to 'Akká in order to attain the presence of Bahá’u’lláh.
His first meeting with Him took place in the Garden of Ridvan. As soon as he was ushered into His presence, the scene of water flowing from the fountain near Bahá’u’lláh’s feet as He sat on the bench surrounded by the two streams, vividly brought to his mind the vision of the Prophets of Israel as recorded in the Old Testament:
There is a river, the streams whereof shall make glad the city of God, the holy place of the tabernacles of the most High. God is in the midst of her; she shall not be moved: God shall help her, and that right early. (Psalms 46:4)
**But there the glorious Lord will be unto us a place of broad rivers and streams; wherein shall go no galley with oars, neither shall gallant ship pass thereby. **(Isaiah 33:21)
He was overwhelmed by this vision so suddenly and vividly revealed to him.
It came upon him as a thunderbolt and he was carried away into a different world.
His whole being was stirred to its depths as he saw himself, standing with awe and wonder in the presence of the Lord of the Old Testament. His instant urge was to prostate himself at the feet of Bahá’u’lláh, and this he did. The effect of this first meeting, and of hearing the utterances of Bahá’u’lláh on that occasion, was to create a fire of love and adoration which continued to burn within his heart till the end of his life.
 
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