Salvation is not certain in The Church.

[mhmtas]

The Catholic Church take a very full responsibility in insisting Trinity doctrine that maybe cause of trillions to go hell but not heaven as they suppose. Non of prophets included Jesus( İf there are some proofs in Bible truely please show them) did have such a claim. So that illustrate fact has been fabricated by someone. İf Christian can prove their claims but not only from NT but from all Scriptures. And these evidences and comments must satisfy mind, heart, consience but not only because Church claim. My intend is not to assault Catholic faith but to learn fact because Trinity conflict with my circumstances of fact. A simple example: non of prophet declared such claim.

 

[Sam_777]

OT:
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

NT:
Matthew 28:19
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

 

[mhmtas]

OT:
Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.”

So do you claim “a spirit of grace and supplication” is Holy Spirit and “the one they have pierced” is Son?

 

[Sam_777]

So do you claim “a spirit of grace and supplication” is Holy Spirit and “the one they have pierced” is Son?

mhmtas you are a physics teacher, you should be smart enough to realize that…
Just open your mind & heart. (Edited)

 

[Lasting_faith]

Salvation is certain if you do what God want you to.

I don’t know much about Muslims, but I believe that God has created us all, Christ did die for us so that there would be no sin anymore for those who have faith. I also believe that we will be judged by our deeds. So the way I see it, and I don’t think I am far from the truth, Muslims also believe that there is a Heaven and Hell and what they do while walking on Earth is also by what they will be judged.

Look, I am a man of simple faith. My faith is strong and as far as I can see it, everlasting, maybe not always because I believe as such, but because I also fear God. Most of what I don’t do is because I fear. But I also belive in Gods love, and I like it that way. So each day I pick up my cross, pray, and hope God will be with me. I don’t like endless debates when there is more wisdom in a couple of words then in all books in the world. I love the most Holy of all Holy Sacraments, The Communion, and receive it regulary, after Confession.

But, I think we both are good, don’t sin, do your best to love your neighbour as you love your self, do unto others what you want them to do unto you, and we both should be pretty safe.

 

[anruari]

mhmtas you are a physics teacher, you should be smart enough to realize that…
Just open your mind & heart, don’t let the illiterate Muhammed and his bad spirit deceive you…

Charity Please.
We can defend the faith without being deliberately offensive to the faith of others.

 

[anruari]

From Jn 1:

In the begining was the Word. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.
All things were made through him and without him nothing came to be. Whatever has come to be, found life in him, life which for humans was also light.
…
For the Light was coming into the world, the true Light that enlightens everyone.
He was already in the world and through him the world was made, the very world that did not know him.
…
And the Word was made flesh; he had his tent pitched among us, and we have seen his Glory, the Glory of the only Son coming from the Father: fullness of truth and loving-kindness.

Other scriptures that say Jesus Is God:

Mt1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Is 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Is 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Rev 1:17-18; Rev 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Is 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Pet 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Is 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

Jn 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Jn 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Jn 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

Jn 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Jn 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

Jn 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”

Jn 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Act 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Act 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Rev 1:5,6; Revn 5:8-9 - (Jesus’ blood purchased us)

Phil 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Tim 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Tit 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Heb 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 Jn 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Rev 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Rev 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”… 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

Heb 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Heb 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Pet 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

 

[anruari]

The Holy Spirit:
Does the Bible Say, That the Holy Spirit Is God?

Jesus could say “I and the Father are one” and by now we can understand that meant it to mean “The Father and I are the same one God”. Yes, it also means one in purpose, one in opinion etc, but this would be too weak a representation of what the whole Gospel set out to show, namely that Jesus IS God.

So, to establish the Deity of the Holy Spirit, I will go a similar path and establish the “equality” between the Spirit and the other persons of the Godhead.

John 14:16-18

And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another [and this word in Greek means: another of the same kind] Helper, that He may abide with you forever – the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
This is from Jesus’ “fare well” discourse. And he tells his disciples that he will send another one to ‘replace’ him when he will be no longer physically among them. And it is no stranger. He already lives WITH them (He is Jesus - that is my interpretation of it and this is consistent with all I know from the Bible) and then will soon be in them (the Holy Spirit). And indeed in the last sentence he says “I will come to you”. He is speaking of himself and the Spirit as having one identity.

In Luke 12 Jesus speaks to those who deliberately oppose Jesus and attribute his work to Satan:

10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
But you can only blaspheme against God, so it is clear from this that the Holy Spirit is God, not Gabriel or some other spirit sent by God, as some Muslims contend.

2 Corinthians 3:17

Now the Lord IS the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
So, again the Spirit and the Lord (Jesus, see context) are one in identity (one God, that is) but nevertheless, still somehow ‘separate’ since it is the ‘Spirit OF the Lord’. This is the same principle of “sameness” and “distinctiveness” between Jesus and the Spirit as we have seen between Jesus and God the Father.

2 Corinthians 13:5

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?
So, earlier Jesus was promising that the Spirit would come to dwell in them. Now the assumption is that it is Jesus who is in them.

And indeed, Jesus says the same thing in John 14:23

Jesus replied: "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him and we will come to him and make our home with him.
In the context of all the other verses, the ‘with’ in the last line makes the best sense as ‘within’. God is everywhere and that does not depend on our obedience. So, Jesus would not really say anything new or profound if it were not to mean that they will live ‘in’ the those who love and serve God.

Acts 5:3-4

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? “While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Lying to the Holy Spirit (verse 3) is lying to God (verse 4). So, it seems again, that the Spirit is God.

Just a short list of more verses to look up:

The Holy Spirit is God

1. the Spirit has the divine characteristics

• omnipresence (especially: He lives in all believers)
  Ps 139:7-12; John 14:17-18
• omniscient 1 Cor 2:10
• grace Zechariah 12:10; Hebr. 10:29
• holiness, glory Romans 1:4; 1 Peter 4:14
• life Romans 8:2,10; 2 Cor 3:6
• love Romans 15:30; 2 Tim 1:7
• unsearchable greatness Isaiah 40:13
• truth John 14:17; 15:26: 16:13; 1 John 5:6
• where the Spirit is, there is power Acts 1:8; 2 Tim 1:7; Romans 15:13,19
• sovereignty John 3:8; 1 Cor 12:11

1. the Spirit has divine names

• Spirit of God Numbers 24:2; Rom. 8:9,14; 2 Chr. 15:1
• Spirit of the Lord Judges 3:10; 6:34; Is. 11:2; 2 Cor 3:17
• Spirit of the Father Matth. 10:20
• Spirit of Jesus Acts 16:7
• Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9
• Spirit of the Son Galatians 4:6
• paraclete, i.e. the advocate, John 14:16,26; 15:26
  helper, counselor

Okay, let those be enough.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Catholic Church take a very full responsibility in insisting Trinity doctrine that maybe cause of trillions to go hell but not heaven as they suppose. Non of prophets included Jesus( İf there are some proofs in Bible truely please show them) did have such a claim. So that illustrate fact has been fabricated by someone. İf Christian can prove their claims but not only from NT but from all Scriptures. And these evidences and comments must satisfy mind, heart, consience but not only because Church claim. My intend is not to assault Catholic faith but to learn fact because Trinity conflict with my circumstances of fact. A simple example: non of prophet declared such claim.

Why would the doctrine of the Trinity cause trillion of people to go to hell?

 

[JerryZ]

The Catholic Church take a very full responsibility in insisting Trinity doctrine that maybe cause of trillions to go hell but not heaven as they suppose. Non of prophets included Jesus( İf there are some proofs in Bible truely please show them) did have such a claim. So that illustrate fact has been fabricated by someone. İf Christian can prove their claims but not only from NT but from all Scriptures. And these evidences and comments must satisfy mind, heart, consience but not only because Church claim. My intend is not to assault Catholic faith but to learn fact because Trinity conflict with my circumstances of fact. A simple example: non of prophet declared such claim.

It is fairly obvious that God revealed to his profets what it was prudent and conmesurate with the development of each individual profet.
Would he reveal the full nature of the Trinity to a profet that had not known Jesus? Though He did reveal Jesus of the Holy Spirit we have glimpses, hints in the OT.
And that is consistent, God has been preparing us to fully accept and understand Him with each passing generation.
In the beginning we had many laws that nowdays we consider obsolete, thanks to the revelation of Jesus.

I would recommend to you to ask God to guide you in understanding Him fully!
What could you loose? on the other hand you could gain a lot

 

[SaintFrancis333]

The Catholic Church take a very full responsibility in insisting Trinity doctrine that maybe cause of trillions to go hell but not heaven as they suppose. Non of prophets included Jesus( İf there are some proofs in Bible truely please show them) did have such a claim. So that illustrate fact has been fabricated by someone. İf Christian can prove their claims but not only from NT but from all Scriptures. And these evidences and comments must satisfy mind, heart, consience but not only because Church claim. My intend is not to assault Catholic faith but to learn fact because Trinity conflict with my circumstances of fact. A simple example: non of prophet declared such claim.

You are in the wrong mindset if you think God exists to satisfy your curiosities and feelings. We are here to love God and most of all, to serve Him. He does not serve us. He does not need us. We need Him. I think our muslim brothers and sisters limit their understanding of the Christ and His teachings because they refuse to engage in anything other than the Bible. For us Catholics (who possess the fullness of the faith/fullness of Truth) there is so much “more” than just the Bible. If you limit yourself to only accepting things from Scriptures, then you’ll never be able to understand what Catholicism actually teaches. This is not an admonition of you my friend. I hope you will broaden your mind in trying to understand our faith, that you might better understand it As-salam alaykum my friend.

 

[Nicea325]

You are in the wrong mindset if you think God exists to satisfy your curiosities and feelings. We are here to love God and most of all, to serve Him. He does not serve us. He does not need us. We need Him. I think our muslim brothers and sisters limit their understanding of the Christ and His teachings because they refuse to engage in anything other than the Bible. For us Catholics (who possess the fullness of the faith/fullness of Truth) there is so much “more” than just the Bible. If you limit yourself to only accepting things from Scriptures, then you’ll never be able to understand what Catholicism actually teaches. This is not an admonition of you my friend. I hope you will broaden your mind in trying to understand our faith, that you might better understand it As-salam alaykum my friend.

Exactly! Why do so many God-fearing folks have this belief God needs us? There is nothing we possess which He lacks. As you mentioned, we need HIm.

 

[mhmtas]

Why would the doctrine of the Trinity cause trillion of people to go to hell?

According to our İslamic faith if someone claim that there are more than one God which called “Şirk” in Quran is a kind of mortal sin. Because Allah(God) is unique and there is no partner in God’s state. Unity of universe from an atom to galaxies show that unity.

 

[MartinJordan]

According to our İslamic faith if someone claim that there are more than one God which called “Şirk” in Quran is a kind of mortal sin. Because Allah(God) is unique and there is no partner in God’s state. Unity of universe from an atom to galaxies show that unity.

God has no partners.

Where in Catholicism or Christianity for that matter claim God needs a partner?

MJ

 

[KendraDZ1902]

According to our İslamic faith if someone claim that there are more than one God which called “Şirk” in Quran is a kind of mortal sin. Because Allah(God) is unique and there is no partner in God’s state. Unity of universe from an atom to galaxies show that unity.

I don’t think you fully understand what the Trinity is. We don’t worship 3 separate gods.

 

[MartinJordan]

I don’t think you fully understand what the Trinity is. We don’t worship 3 separate gods.

Ignatius of Antioch

“Jesus Christ . . .** was with the Father before the beginning of time**, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . **[T]here is one God, **who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him” (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 A.D. 110] emphasis added).

Polycarp of Smyrna

"I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 A.D. 155] emphasis added).

Amen

 

[expounder]

Ignatius of Antioch

“Jesus Christ . . .** was with the Father before the beginning of time**, and in the end was revealed. . . . Jesus Christ . . . came forth from one Father and is with and has gone to one [Father]. . . . **[T]here is one God, **who has manifested himself by Jesus Christ his Son, who is his eternal Word, not proceeding forth from silence, and who in all things pleased him that sent him” (Letter to the Magnesians 6–8 A.D. 110] emphasis added).

Polycarp of Smyrna

"I praise you for all things, I bless you, I glorify you, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, with whom, to you and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 A.D. 155] emphasis added).

Amen

Explain to me how 1+1+1=1

 

[MartinJordan]

Explain to me how 1+1+1=1

That’s not how it’s taught. God is not Math.

Read the CCC

MJ

 

[Reuben_J]

According to our İslamic faith if someone claim that there are more than one God which called “Şirk” in Quran is a kind of mortal sin. Because Allah(God) is unique and there is no partner in God’s state. Unity of universe from an atom to galaxies show that unity.

And Christians agree with you there. So the question, how would the doctrine of the Trinity cause trillion of people to go to hell?

 

[mhmtas]

And Christians agree with you there. So the question, how would the doctrine of the Trinity cause trillion of people to go to hell?

To assert that God altered and incarnated in different matter(Son, Holy Spirit) conflict with attributes of God whichs are eternal, indivisible, timeless, placeless than Trinity concluded with a way that like Pagans believe. This kind of faith is not acceptable by God, is ist?